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#60143 - 09/14/11 12:59 PM New campground planned
skl Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 4
I'm one of the neighbors of the proposed campground on Route 299, west of the existing Multi-Use Area. My house is one of nine within 200 yards of the land on which the campground is slated to be built. Twenty-one homes are within 500 yards. Most of us are climbers, hikers, mountain bikers etc, so we have a shared interest in preserving access to the outdoors, the peace, and the quiet of the Gunks.

We're not trying to stop the campground from being built: we agree that providing camping options is important. But everyone is aware of the problems at the MUA. This new proposed campground will be bigger and more closely surrounded by many more houses, so we'd like to avoid a situation where this new campground just scales up and intensifies those conflicts.

The Palisades Interstate Park Commission (PIPC) owns the land and plans to build the campground. PIPC plans, for now, to allow the Mohonk Preserve and the American Alpine Club to manage the campground after it's constructed. We've met with PIPC and the Preserve and appreciate some of the management policies they've said they intend to have, like having a manager on site and noise limits. However, PIPC is claiming to be exempt from the local zoning laws that the town of Gardiner created specifically for projects like this, and refusing to provide any other mechanism for guaranteeing that any agreements about the campground design or management remain in place.

I'm posting here because the campers create the local culture at a campground, and members of this forum may be among those campers, so you should be aware of the discussion. A lot of things that could help reduce the impact of the campsites on the surrounding houses would likewise reduce the impact of the surrounding houses on the campsites and the campsites on one another. I'm looking forward to reaching solutions that let the campers and the existing homes around them coexist peacefully.

Best regards,
Susan Lewis

(FYI: There's a map at http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/view?q=sh...210434452006978 with the campground site marked in yellow and surrounding houses circled in orange. The green markings in the center of the site are wetlands. If you want to see the original without the markings, this is from Ulster County's web map application at http://gis.co.ulster.ny.us/. Zoom in to the intersection of highways 299 and 44/55 until the "Aerial Photos" layer is enabled, then select the "2009 Infrared" layer. The campground site is the fourth plot from the intersection, on the south side of 299. The blue things on the surrounding plots are houses, driveways, businesses and parking lots. For wetlands, select the "Federal Wetlands" layer under "Water Resources.")

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#60144 - 09/14/11 03:11 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: skl]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Thanks Susan, for a nice presentation of realistic concerns by someone who would likely be most effected. Imagine PIPC feeling they can do whatever they want?!

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#60180 - 09/15/11 08:03 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: skl]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: skl
I


Who is the lawyer for the town of Gardiner? Likewise who is the lawyer for the Mohonk Preserve?
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#60182 - 09/15/11 08:18 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
It's interesting that the town of gardiner and Mohonk Preserve are represented by the same attorney.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64129 - 04/23/12 08:52 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
Ok, bit of a latecomer to this discussion and I hate to dig up old threads, but we'd like to find out more information about this proposed campground. We have land that is in *very* close proximity to the site and have full intention to have a home there (if the real estate market ever picks up and we can get rid of our current house). Not weekenders, mind you. Full time.

What's the current state of affairs? Online news reports seem to indicate that the project is stalled. Any truth to this?

We'd also like to find a direct source of info about the planned use of the site. If it were strictly tents and the occasional trailer with a small, on-site facility for offices and a restroom, I think we'd have no opposition to it. It could provide a small boost for the EMS, Brauhaus, and Bistro, along with the nearby farm stand market. I don't think a campground like that would affect neighboring property value, which I think is a concern for full time residents.

However, if it were to host large trailers, multiple facilities and a venue for events, we'd be concerned. Anything that might attract or allow year-round or long term tenancy at such a place would be cause for us to get involved in some serious opposition to the project. This would negatively affect those living nearby with noise, traffic, trespassing and the like.

Please don't think I'm anti-camping, I've camped my way across the country and have seen many campgrounds, the good and the bad.

Any info is appreciated.

Susan, I think it was you that sent out the letters. Thanks for the heads-up, hope we're not riding to the fight too late.


Edited by GuilfordGang (04/23/12 09:00 PM)

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#64130 - 04/23/12 10:08 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: GuilfordGang
Ok, bit of a latecomer to this discussion and I hate to dig up old threads, but we'd like to find out more information about this proposed campground. We have land that is in *very* close proximity to the site and have full intention to have a home there (if the real estate market ever picks up and we can get rid of our current house). Not weekenders, mind you. Full time.

What's the current state of affairs? Online news reports seem to indicate that the project is stalled. Any truth to this?

We'd also like to find a direct source of info about the planned use of the site. If it were strictly tents and the occasional trailer with a small, on-site facility for offices and a restroom, I think we'd have no opposition to it. It could provide a small boost for the EMS, Brauhaus, and Bistro, along with the nearby farm stand market. I don't think a campground like that would affect neighboring property value, which I think is a concern for full time residents.

However, if it were to host large trailers, multiple facilities and a venue for events, we'd be concerned. Anything that might attract or allow year-round or long term tenancy at such a place would be cause for us to get involved in some serious opposition to the project. This would negatively affect those living nearby with noise, traffic, trespassing and the like.

Please don't think I'm anti-camping, I've camped my way across the country and have seen many campgrounds, the good and the bad.

Any info is appreciated.

Susan, I think it was you that sent out the letters. Thanks for the heads-up, hope we're not riding to the fight too late.



You're not too late to join the fight. You should contact Susan and get updates from her. She seems to be spearheading this and has been at all the meetings. The plan is to make this a large campground with "pavillion" to host "events" of up to 280 people. certainly not a low impact project. This campground will most certainly change your area so it would be a good idea to join the dialog. Feel free to PM us if you need the support of other neighbors from around the Mohonk Preserve.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64132 - 04/23/12 10:27 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
The Mohonk Preserve has basically partnered with PIPC so they can circumvent the Gardiner zoning laws. Here are a few issues that you might think about.

1. 200 campground users having to cross 299 two times a day.
2. The non campground use of the "pavillion"
3. Traffic on 299
4. Noise from partying/alcohol overuse.
5. Putting the campground on the north side of 299 where all of the above (except traffic) would be eliminated.
6. Why is the Town and Mohonk Preserve represented by the same attorney (Paul Kellar)

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64135 - 04/23/12 11:23 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5978
Loc: 212 land
The plan is to make this a large campground with "pavillion" to host "events" of up to 280 people

Where is that written?
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#64140 - 04/24/12 12:08 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: oenophore]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
GARDINER, NY - 6/26/2002 - Today, the Open Space Institute (OSI) announced the donation of a 45-acre parcel of land in the foothills of the Shawangunk Ridge, which will be used as a public campground for visitors to the area. The land is being donated by OSI's land acquisition affiliate, the Open Space Conservancy (OSC), to the Massachusetts-based Appalachian Mountain Club (AMC).

Located in the Town of Gardiner in Ulster County, along Route 299 as it approaches a notch in the ridge known as the Trapps Gateway, the proposed campground was acquired by OSI in 1996, as part of a larger effort to protect an area known as the Trapps Gateway. The acquisition was made possible with funding from the Lila Acheson and DeWitt Wallace Endowment Fund. During the past five years, OSI has acquired several parcels in the Gateway area, totaling approximately 160 acres.

Some 500,000 visitors come to the Trapps Gateway area each year, to hike, rockclimb and cycle, and currently, there are limited camping opportunities in the vicinity. The proposed campground is less than one mile from the Trapps and Near Trapps, two extensive cliffs on the Mohonk Preserve that provide some of the best rock climbing on the East Coast. In recent years, mounting pressure on the ridge for camping has led to overuse of informal campgrounds, creating sanitation, fire, and patrol issues, and also resulting in degradation of the Trapps Gateway area.

"This campground will provide much-needed low-cost accommodations for visitors who come from all over the country to enjoy the incredible recreational virtues of the Gunks," noted Joe Martens, President of OSI. "It has been rewarding to work with our partners at AMC and Mohonk Preserve to make this campground a reality."

AMC will construct and operate a primitive campground with roughly 50 tent sites. The AMC has broad experience in providing services for outdoors enthusiasts and currently operates over 50 camps, lodges, huts and shelters in the Appalachian region.

"We are very pleased to partner with the Open Space Institute to help conserve the Gunks," said AMC Executive Director Andrew Falender. "The creation of a campground in this area will enable us to provide information and other support services to help visitors both enjoy and wisely use this wonderful area. We always try to provide an overnight experience that will inspire our guests to protect the region's precious outdoor resources."

"The Mohonk Preserve welcomes this creative solution among partners to the protection and compatible use of lands adjacent to the Mohonk National Landmark Landscape," said Glenn D. Hoagland, Executive Director of the Mohonk Preserve.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64141 - 04/24/12 12:11 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
This was the early proposal before it became a bloated project that will cost $25/ camper. The Pavillion has been written about numerous times in the local papers. We'll try and find the info.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64142 - 04/24/12 12:20 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
GARDINER — Susan Lewis seems almost surprised by the environmental fight she's engaged in.

She's an environmentalist herself, a member and supporter of the Mohonk Preserve.

But these days she finds herself questioning some critical aspects of a proposed campground that would abut her property on Marakill Lane. The 50-site campground is being proposed by the Palisades Interstate Park Commission. It would be managed by the preserve. The proposed Shawangunk Gateway Campground abuts the property of seven other homes in the shadow of the Shawangunk Ridge.

Lewis would like to see alcohol banned from the site and enforceable limits placed on the number of people who can use it. The project could become reality by the end of the year.

But most of all, she'd like to see the proposal come under the jurisdiction of the local Planning Board. But that's something that, to Lewis' dismay, the PIPC says isn't going to happen.

The PIPC is not subject to local laws, it says.

"It's a bit frightening to me that we have no formal mechanism to ensure that whatever agreements we come to with the PIPC will be enforceable in the future," she said.

If this were a private development, she said, the builders would need a special permit from the town to proceed.

Lewis recently forwarded a petition with 150 signatures to town officials. She and her lawyer have met twice with the PIPC's executive director, James Hall, to try and resolve the issues. But Hall said Tuesday the commission's position isn't about to change.

"As a state entity, we're not subject to local laws, any more than when the state wants to build a road through state-owned land," he said. "It's a question of state sovereignty."

To do otherwise, such as agree to a deed restriction as Lewis has proposed, would be tantamount, Hall said, to granting private property owners control over state land.

As for formally limiting alcohol consumption, he said that rather than forbid it, the site's managers would monitor any inappropriate behavior. He also said that the site would not be rented out for large-scale parties as Lewis and other property owners fear.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64143 - 04/24/12 12:26 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
As per the last meeting, the Mohonk Preserve was unwilling to drop the idea of the pavillion. The pavillion would have some kind of sound system for mass gatherings. As far as we could tell tje idea of renting it out was still on the table. This is certainly not the low impact 50 campsite proposal that was envisioned in 2002.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64144 - 04/24/12 02:32 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
This is unfortunate.

After my initial post I did more digging and found the original site plan. I saw that and thought, "What's the big deal?" I would have been fine with the original incarnation of the SGC. It looked like a mostly quiet mixed walk/drive in site that would perhaps at worst create only occasional commotion. A rowdy night at the campfire before heading home and the like.

I am also curious what documentation can be found about the number and size of sites and facilities at the proposed SGC with the new plan.

Does anyone have a link to a PDF of the new plan that the PIPC/MP is proposing? If this is a State backed project then it should be public info. I couldn't find it.

Funny how a simple campground has been possibly corrupted into a potential problem for those of us in the area.

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#64145 - 04/24/12 02:54 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: GuilfordGang
This is unfortunate.

After my initial post I did more digging and found the original site plan. I saw that and thought, "What's the big deal?" I would have been fine with the original incarnation of the SGC. It looked like a mostly quiet mixed walk/drive in site that would perhaps at worst create only occasional commotion. A rowdy night at the campfire before heading home and the like.

I am also curious what documentation can be found about the number and size of sites and facilities at the proposed SGC with the new plan.

Does anyone have a link to a PDF of the new plan that the PIPC/MP is proposing? If this is a State backed project then it should be public info. I couldn't find it.

Funny how a simple campground has been possibly corrupted into a potential problem for those of us in the area.


One of the tactics that the Mohonk Preserve uses is to try and divide the neighbors so there is less opposition. They've tried this numerous times. The best thing to do is to get in contact with Susan and get more neighbors involved from around the Mohonk Preserve. Sign the petition that is circulating, get involved, go to the meetings and get your voice heard. If you would like, we can help with getting you in contact with other neighbors.

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64147 - 04/24/12 09:57 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5978
Loc: 212 land
If the proposed campground would be any more than a well-policed place to crash and cook without an open fire, I'd be opposed if I were to live nearby.
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#64148 - 04/24/12 10:51 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: oenophore]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: oenophore
If the proposed campground would be any more than a well-policed place to crash and cook without an open fire, I'd be opposed if I were to live nearby.


That sums up the feelings of the majority of the neighbors. It's a real shame that the Mohonk Preserve is trying to shove this expansive, bloated and high impact project on its neighbors. The neighbors concerns have been more than reasonable. Please write to the Mohonk Preserve and explain that the campground as proposed is unacceptable.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64149 - 04/24/12 01:58 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5978
Loc: 212 land
Please write to the Mohonk Preserve and explain that the campground as proposed is unacceptable.

Since I don't know exactly what is proposed, I'll reserve my opinion of the proposal.
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#64150 - 04/24/12 02:30 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: oenophore]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
I've scoured the Internet trying to find more info about the modified plans. Nothing is available, not even from NYS parks or state.gov sites. Just the original ~50-ish site PDF. That means either it's being hidden, the plans are not done yet, or it is stalled at some point along the way.

I'm already planning to write Cuomo, Gardiner officials and the PIPC to state my concerns and request information. I wish I could attend a Gardiner meeting, but it's 8 hours round trip for me, not to mention gas and tolls.

This campground is creating a problem for us, we've already invested a lot of time and money for BOH, engineering and architectural services needed to build on our land. We'd hoped for a small, quiet place in the woods. If this campground were to go through in it's bloated incarnation I don't think my other half would want to continue with the process. We have a small child and the last thing we need is a transient, mobile kegger less then a quarter mile away. We'd be taking a loss on the investment, plus losing a dream spot in the forest.

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#64151 - 04/24/12 03:20 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
concur re plan.. The pavilion has always been in the plans and its purpose isn't clear, except that it has showers. I couldn't find anything else, even in local papers, most likely this is another piece of AG misdisinfo.

that said. its the drumming that gets me. I don't know why people have to go out in the 'wilderness' and fucking drum. Even with a onsite manager enforcing 'quiet' hours this would be a PITA. And I'm going to agree with Chris (yes!) that this doesn't appear to be being done by by the PIPC engaging effectively with the locals and that blows bigtime.




Originally Posted By: GuilfordGang
I've scoured the Internet trying to find more info about the modified plans. Nothing is available, not even from NYS parks or state.gov sites. Just the original ~50-ish site PDF. That means either it's being hidden, the plans are not done yet, or it is stalled at some point along the way.

I'm already planning to write Cuomo, Gardiner officials and the PIPC to state my concerns and request information. I wish I could attend a Gardiner meeting, but it's 8 hours round trip for me, not to mention gas and tolls.

This campground is creating a problem for us, we've already invested a lot of time and money for BOH, engineering and architectural services needed to build on our land. We'd hoped for a small, quiet place in the woods. If this campground were to go through in it's bloated incarnation I don't think my other half would want to continue with the process. We have a small child and the last thing we need is a transient, mobile kegger less then a quarter mile away. We'd be taking a loss on the investment, plus losing a dream spot in the forest.

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#64153 - 04/24/12 03:54 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
Lol, re: drumming

Yeah, I'm guilty of enjoying that when I was younger, BUT, it was with many people of similar mind, so everyone was ok with it. Plus there was nobody nearby to affect with the noise.

I've written a letter to Gardiner officials, FWIW. From what I can gather their influence on the matter is limited due to who owns the land. Here it is:

Edit: Odd, the site is clipping my paste after the first paragraph. Maybe because I'm posting from a mobile device.


Edited by GuilfordGang (04/24/12 03:59 PM)

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#64154 - 04/24/12 03:57 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: GuilfordGang
I've scoured the Internet trying to find more info about the modified plans. Nothing is available, not even from NYS parks or state.gov sites. Just the original ~50-ish site PDF. That means either it's being hidden, the plans are not done yet, or it is stalled at some point along the way.

I'm already planning to write Cuomo, Gardiner officials and the PIPC to state my concerns and request information. I wish I could attend a Gardiner meeting, but it's 8 hours round trip for me, not to mention gas and tolls.

This campground is creating a problem for us, we've already invested a lot of time and money for BOH, engineering and architectural services needed to build on our land. We'd hoped for a small, quiet place in the woods. If this campground were to go through in it's bloated incarnation I don't think my other half would want to continue with the process. We have a small child and the last thing we need is a transient, mobile kegger less then a quarter mile away. We'd be taking a loss on the investment, plus losing a dream spot in the forest.



If you haven't talked with Susan you should as she is up to date. Ianmanger has not been to any of the meetings so he really has no clue what is going on. Again it's best to talk to your direct neighbors and get involved. The way it looks to us with the current proposal is that the area is going to be impacted in a negative way.

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64156 - 04/24/12 04:07 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
We already are and have been for a few weeks now.

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#64159 - 04/24/12 04:21 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Ha, nice try..I just followed your advice, brah. As usual, its not substantiated, so feel free to post up what you have as I really would like to read it. I am genuinely sympathetic to the neighbors on this, I'm just not going to take your word for it because of your casual relationship with facts.

guilford, can you PM me Susan's contact?


Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
This was the early proposal before it became a bloated project that will cost $25/ camper. The Pavillion has been written about numerous times in the local papers. We'll try and find the info.


Originally Posted By: Advocacy group

Ianmanger has not been to any of the meetings so he really has no clue what is going on. Again it's best to talk to your direct neighbors and get involved. The way it looks to us with the current proposal is that the area is going to be impacted in a negative way.








Edited by ianmanger (04/24/12 04:23 PM)
Edit Reason: emphasis

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#64160 - 04/24/12 04:25 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
you campground haters probably vote against bettering our schools to save a buck as well.

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#64161 - 04/24/12 04:36 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Not sure how you got here from there...

Originally Posted By: crimpy
you campground haters probably vote against bettering our schools to save a buck as well.

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#64162 - 04/24/12 04:44 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
emotion

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#64163 - 04/24/12 04:50 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
OK, so how would you feel if someone dropped this in your backyard without consulting you?
Originally Posted By: crimpy
emotion


and let me be quite clear, I'm not against the campground, so lets not go that way. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am concerned about the process.

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#64164 - 04/24/12 05:07 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
Originally Posted By: crimpy
you campground haters probably vote against bettering our schools to save a buck as well.


Absolutely not. Completely untrue in our case. I stated as much in my letter to officials, that I am ok with the campground in its initial 50 site state.

Having just read through some docs that Susan provided (a draft MOA), the proposal she has made IMO would be an asset and a community resource rather than a nuisance and a hazard.

Crimpy, I'd like to think that dissenting opinions are welcome here, but I am offended by your straw man argument. If it had been a school that was proposed to be built on that site we would have been 100% for it.

I suggest you contact Susan and read the MOA, IMO it's a facility that anyone with a tiny whit of environmental concern or interest in the outdoors could approve of.

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#64165 - 04/24/12 05:09 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
Ianmanager, check your inbox.

Eh carp, can't send a pm. What gives?


Edited by GuilfordGang (04/24/12 05:11 PM)

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#64166 - 04/24/12 05:12 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
misprunt, surely smirk

yeah, I couldn't PM you. settings?


Originally Posted By: GuilfordGang
Ianmanager, check your inbox.

Eh carp, can't send a pm. What gives?

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#64167 - 04/24/12 05:37 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
Nothing wrong in settings, set to accept PMs from other users. Is there a minimum number of posts before PMs can be sent?

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#64168 - 04/24/12 05:43 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
says you are over limit. weird.

ianmanger*****at*****yahoo.com


Originally Posted By: GuilfordGang
Nothing wrong in settings, set to accept PMs from other users. Is there a minimum number of posts before PMs can be sent?

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#64169 - 04/24/12 05:58 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
Done.

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#64170 - 04/24/12 06:59 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: GuilfordGang
Edit: Odd, the site is clipping my paste after the first paragraph. Maybe because I'm posting from a mobile device.

Nothing to do with mobile. This site is notorious for cutting off a paste after certain characters, in particular, quote marks, both single and double. It's a long time bug.

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#64171 - 04/24/12 07:59 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5978
Loc: 212 land
This site is notorious for cutting off a paste after certain characters, in particular, quote marks, both single and double.

Add hyphens to that list.
_________________________

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#64172 - 04/24/12 08:05 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: oenophore]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
For those of you who are interested in signing a petition, Susan has started one on Change.org. Please sign and help the Neighbors!

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64174 - 04/24/12 08:59 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
For those of you who are interested in signing a petition, Susan has started one on Change.org. Please sign and help the Neighbors!

As others have noted, it's kind of premature to make any sort of assessment or sign petitions or take sides if no one knows the documented details of the proposal.

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#64175 - 04/24/12 09:11 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
For those of you who are interested in signing a petition, Susan has started one on Change.org. Please sign and help the Neighbors!

As others have noted, it's kind of premature to make any sort of assessment or sign petitions or take sides if no one knows the documented details of the proposal.


It's not intended for you RetromarcC.......Most of the locals know what's going on.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64176 - 04/24/12 09:15 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I've never seen nor heard of any changes to the campground proposal since it was shown in the Minnewaska Preserve Master Plan a few years ago.

The proposed Matser Plan, including the campground, was laid out VERY clearly in the Master Plan. The Plan was made available for public review, and an open-to-public meeting was held, with quite a bit of notice. It was all over this board, and in the local newspapers. I attended that meeting, as did quite a large number of others. I think it would be difficult for anyone who is concerned about the goings on in the Gunks to NOT have known about that meeting.

At the meeting, notes were taken on comments by the public. We were also encouraged to write to those in charge during the phase where they were considering the proposed plan and finalizing it, and voice our concerns, after seeing the proposal.
Contact information was provided.

This was maybe 2 or 3 years ago.



Unless Advocacy Group can clearly provide details - with verifiable sources - about changes made to the campsite plan after the Matser Plan was finalized - I would suggest, strongly, that he is talking shit.

As it stands, he has linked what "appears" to be a newspaper article in this thread, with no link or even a notation as to it's source/date.


Post the information about changes set in place since the Mater Plan - or STFU(please).

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#64177 - 04/24/12 09:24 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: TerrieM
I've never seen nor heard of any changes to the campground proposal since it was shown in the Minnewaska Preserve Master Plan a few years ago.

The proposed Matser Plan, including the campground, was laid out VERY clearly in the Master Plan. The Plan was made available for public review, and an open-to-public meeting was held, with quite a bit of notice. It was all over this board, and in the local newspapers. I attended that meeting, as did quite a large number of others. I think it would be difficult for anyone who is concerned about the goings on in the Gunks to NOT have known about that meeting.

At the meeting, notes were taken on comments by the public. We were also encouraged to write to those in charge during the phase where they were considering the proposed plan and finalizing it, and voice our concerns, after seeing the proposal.
Contact information was provided.

This was maybe 2 or 3 years ago.



Unless Advocacy Group can clearly provide details - with verifiable sources - about changes made to the campsite plan after the Matser Plan was finalized - I would suggest, strongly, that he is talking shit.

As it stands, he has linked what "appears" to be a newspaper article in this thread, with no link or even a notation as to it's source/date.


Post the information about changes set in place since the Mater Plan - or STFU(please).



Very nice terrie....... Mohonk has significantly changed the plans, so get involved, find out for yourself and support the neighbors.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64178 - 04/24/12 09:39 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
As I said - SHOW US WHERE THIS IS DOCUMENTED

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#64179 - 04/24/12 10:07 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5978
Loc: 212 land
I've scoured the Internet trying to find more info about the modified plans. Nothing is available, not even from NYS parks or state.gov sites. Just the original ~50-ish site PDF. That means either it's being hidden, the plans are not done yet, or it is stalled at some point along the way.

I suspect the latter is the case. Perhaps it has failed to survive budget cuts year after year. Whatever the ill effects of the campground there may be may not be felt for a long time. And who knows what may happen to the plan?
_________________________

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#64180 - 04/24/12 10:35 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
I know your not a campground hater Ianmanger, just hit reply as your post was the most current.I dont want to see anyone screwed. Honestly just having a hard time hearing others whine about prospective troubles with their weekend home based upon mpna bs.sorry.

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#64181 - 04/24/12 10:52 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
I can understand resentment against weekenders, they try to influence policy in a place they aren't real residents of. They generally try to make it more like where they are from, rather than enjoying the place for what it is. Rest assured, we are not them.

If anyone here wants the current info, contact Susan. There has been some good progress blending the needs of the community with those of the campground.

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#64182 - 04/24/12 11:26 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: TerrieM
As I said - SHOW US WHERE THIS IS DOCUMENTED




http://www.nysparks.state.ny.us/inside-o...rkAppendixE.pdf

Here is an old map from a thread (campground progress) showing the pavilion area. It's on another camping thread on gunks.com. The new site plan is even more bloated.........

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64183 - 04/24/12 11:29 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
sorry the link does not work, but you can find it and it works in the original thread......
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64185 - 04/25/12 12:48 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Dude - you are a lousy PR dude for your cause.

How would showing a link to what is planned, and then simply SAYING the plan is changed, be - in any way - documenting what the changed plan entails? Especially when the link doesn't even work.

Here's a tip - when you want someone to check out a web link - you need to actually provide it. You need to provide it in clickable form, and you need to check that it actually works - preferably before posting it.

Like the one where you want us to sign the petition. You suggest looking at a particular website, as if that website is solely about the topic within your agenda. But the reality is - the site is a petition platform for COUNTLESS varied petitions! And you don't even provide the link to the overall website in the first place!

Why not post the actual link TO the actual petition? Do you think people are actually going to try to find it?







Edited by TerrieM (04/25/12 12:50 AM)

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#64186 - 04/25/12 12:51 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
Your weekend home could be in the garage of your weekday home and I would feel the same way. I am a climber, we are all weekenders at some point in time.

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#64187 - 04/25/12 12:58 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
just having a hard time hearing others whine about prospective troubles with their weekend home based upon mpna bs.sorry.

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#64188 - 04/25/12 01:00 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: TerrieM
Dude - you are a lousy PR dude for your cause.

How would showing a link to what is planned, and then simply SAYING the plan is changed, be - in any way - documenting what the changed plan entails? Especially when the link doesn't even work.

Here's a tip - when you want someone to check out a web link - you need to actually provide it. You need to provide it in clickable form, and you need to check that it actually works - preferably before posting it.

Like the one where you want us to sign the petition. You suggest looking at a particular website, as if that website is solely about the topic within your agenda. But the reality is - the site is a petition platform for COUNTLESS varied petitions! And you don't even provide the link to the overall website in the first place!

Why not post the actual link TO the actual petition? Do you think people are actually going to try to find it?








Hey terrie,

We are interested in the local contingency not the hitch hiking, car camper, non locals like yourself. Again we advocate for the neighbors and not You. Besides, none of the locals seem to have the problems You have accessing any of the information.

Best of luck

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#64189 - 04/25/12 03:23 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
MPNA - I have been a resident from May through November in Gardiner for the last 3 years, and have put in hundreds of hours volunteering.

At any rate, a campground is FOR people who don't reside in the area. Since I have quite a number of people asking me regularly about camping in the Gunks, it would be considered reasonable, by reasonable people, that I have an interest in the topic.

But go ahead with your non sequitur responses. It kind of shows that you're full of it. You can't deliver the goods, and your defense in an attempt to camouflage that.

"Besides, none of the locals seem to have the problems You have accessing any of the information." Ummm....upthread a person said they had scoured the internet looking for information to support the OP's allegations and found nothing.

Seems at least one other is having trouble locating the BS you are trying to pass of as fact.

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#64190 - 04/25/12 05:01 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
Ok, before this gets out of hand I am going to see if I can get permission from Susan to post some or all of the docs she sent me.

As far as the change.org petition goes, a simple site search for Gardiner campground would have given the desired result, but seeing as I've located it, I'll share it:

http://www.change.org/petitions/gardiner-town-board-apply-local-zoning-to-the-campground

Crimpy, you're getting pretty negative dude. If a chunk of land was sold and turned into a subdivision in proximity to a favorite ascent and made the area unsightly or difficult to enjoy, you'd be "whining" too. We could just say, "So what, we need more housing." just like you think you need more camping space. So quit the condescending remarks, I didn't dig up this old post and start a discussion to pick a fight.

As far as data about the campground goes, this is a government venture and they aren't exactly handing out the information on the street corner shouting, "Extra, Extra, read all about it..."

Nobody's getting spoon-fed here, including me; so if you want more info, start digging and share what you find so we can all make a better decision about the matter.

MPNA, I gotta admit you are a bit of a broken record. You're saying the same things over an over but not contributing. Links, facts, proof and docs please. Let everyone benefit from the knowledge. You're not doing your cause any favors going on as you are.


Edited by GuilfordGang (04/25/12 05:12 AM)

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#64191 - 04/25/12 11:37 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: GuilfordGang
Ok, before this gets out of hand I am going to see if I can get permission from Susan to post some or all of the docs she sent me.

As far as the change.org petition goes, a simple site search for Gardiner campground would have given the desired result, but seeing as I've located it, I'll share it:

http://www.change.org/petitions/gardiner-town-board-apply-local-zoning-to-the-campground

Crimpy, you're getting pretty negative dude. If a chunk of land was sold and turned into a subdivision in proximity to a favorite ascent and made the area unsightly or difficult to enjoy, you'd be "whining" too. We could just say, "So what, we need more housing." just like you think you need more camping space. So quit the condescending remarks, I didn't dig up this old post and start a discussion to pick a fight.

As far as data about the campground goes, this is a government venture and they aren't exactly handing out the information on the street corner shouting, "Extra, Extra, read all about it..."

Nobody's getting spoon-fed here, including me; so if you want more info, start digging and share what you find so we can all make a better decision about the matter.

MPNA, I gotta admit you are a bit of a broken record. You're saying the same things over an over but not contributing. Links, facts, proof and docs please. Let everyone benefit from the knowledge. You're not doing your cause any favors going on as you are.



GuilfordGang,

We can appreciate you trying to play all sides here. Getting screwed is a tough nut to swallow and we're sure you will learn a lot from this process. Having said that we have posted or linked the only documents available online. If this is a public campground why would Mohonk Preserve not have made the documents public? At the various meetings the Mohonk Preserve has not given out maps or any other documents to people who attended the meetings. It's just another way for them to keep your small group separate. Susan also clearly needs more help than she is getting. She has done a great job but this project was started sometime in what 2002 and as a neighbor you are just getting into this? I know quite a few people in that area who ask us what is going on with the campground!!!!! 160 petition signatures? We submitted petitions to MP with over 600. We're not bragging, just showing that she needs help. So if and when you would like our help, we will be there for you. Best of luck.

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64192 - 04/25/12 11:51 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: TerrieM
MPNA - I have been a resident from May through November in Gardiner for the last 3 years, and have put in hundreds of hours volunteering.

At any rate, a campground is FOR people who don't reside in the area. Since I have quite a number of people asking me regularly about camping in the Gunks, it would be considered reasonable, by reasonable people, that I have an interest in the topic.

But go ahead with your non sequitur responses. It kind of shows that you're full of it. You can't deliver the goods, and your defense in an attempt to camouflage that.

"Besides, none of the locals seem to have the problems You have accessing any of the information." Ummm....upthread a person said they had scoured the internet looking for information to support the OP's allegations and found nothing.

Seems at least one other is having trouble locating the BS you are trying to pass of as fact.


terrie,

You need to face the facts that you are just a drifter. You don't reside here or volunteer here. You volunteer for the Mohonk Preserve in exchange for "housing". We never see you at any of the town board meetings, planning, zoning or any other non MP event. being part of a community means contributing to the process not just skimming from it. In fact if you were so interested in the campground you could have come to the various meetingS but you have not. And now you try and scold us for not posting documents that Mohonk Preserve is keeping from the public? Give us a break with that lame bs.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64193 - 04/25/12 12:30 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Al2 Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 3
advocacy group,

Please know your facts before posting them. Terrie has been doing volunteer work for the past six years and not for "housing". I can tell you first hand. She volunteers to give back, don't knock.
Thanks

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#64194 - 04/25/12 02:09 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
500 yards was the closest to any existing residence as shown on the first map posted. cheese with you whine!

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#64195 - 04/25/12 02:32 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
Here we go, the gloves are slowly coming off. Ain't the Internet grand. I'd ask folks to chill out and stay respectful, but I'm just a guest here too.

MPNA, I'm a latecomer because I just learned about this. Had I known I would have been involved from the start, or maybe even never invested in Gardiner in the first place. As far as playing all sides, it's a pity others aren't interested in seeking balance on this subject. Regarding "getting screwed"... No, I don't feel that way. I'd rather have a campground than a subdivision. I'm not against the campground. What I do want is reasonable implementation and respect for those who live there.

Crimpy, you're just trolling; its obvious you don't care and/or have some prejudice against the residents in the area. Car horns, radios, loud music, TVs, yelling, headlights and the like don't care about distance. The residences most likely affected by noise are the ones to the south, where the terrain slopes into a bowl. Anybody that has been outdoors under certain conditions knows that sounds carry for miles, and in the grand scheme of things 500 yards is nothing.

Let's keep this on topic and knock off the bickering please.

Finally, I have contacted Susan. She has agreed that I can share the docs she sent me, I'll have to wait until I get home before I can set up the file hosting and post links. The docs are not site plans, but are the current state of negotiations between the residents and those building the campground.

She as also offered to sit down for coffee with Anyone from this forum and chat about the subject. I will make available her contact info as a download as well. From what I've seen of the work she's done, I fully support her efforts.


Edited by GuilfordGang (04/25/12 02:39 PM)

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#64196 - 04/25/12 02:58 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
I'd rather have a campground than a subdivision. I'm not against the campground. What I do want is reasonable implementation and respect for those who live there.

This seems perfectly reasonable to me. I hope it comes to pass. I'd love to camp in a ground with real sites, real showers and most importantly to me, real quiet.

I have to say: I hope it comes to pass, and doesn't become the usual "my way or the highway" blockade.

I'm also very interested in seeing the actual plan. I'm not interested in sitting for coffee and talking about protesting and letters and signatures and negotiations and endless innuendo; I'm interested in the plan. Does it have a big pavilion for 200+ people rave parties, or not? (I'm guessing 'not').

I've googled and seen the same things you guys have: a 50-site campground with some basic facilities.

Guilford, I do need to ask: are you a climber? Presumably you at a minimum knew you were buying land near the MUA, which is very close to the new site.

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#64197 - 04/25/12 03:13 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: GuilfordGang
Here we go, the gloves are slowly coming off. Ain't the Internet grand. I'd ask folks to chill out and stay respectful, but I'm just a guest here too.

MPNA, I'm a latecomer because I just learned about this. Had I known I would have been involved from the start, or maybe even never invested in Gardiner in the first place. As far as playing all sides, it's a pity others aren't interested in seeking balance on this subject. Regarding "getting screwed"... No, I don't feel that way. I'd rather have a campground than a subdivision. I'm not against the campground. What I do want is reasonable implementation and respect for those who live there.

Crimpy, you're just trolling; its obvious you don't care and/or have some prejudice against the residents in the area. Car horns, radios, loud music, TVs, yelling, headlights and the like don't care about distance. The residences most likely affected by noise are the ones to the south, where the terrain slopes into a bowl. Anybody that has been outdoors under certain conditions knows that sounds carry for miles, and in the grand scheme of things 500 yards is nothing.

Let's keep this on topic and knock off the bickering please.

Finally, I have contacted Susan. She has agreed that I can share the docs she sent me, I'll have to wait until I get home before I can set up the file hosting and post links. The docs are not site plans, but are the current state of negotiations between the residents and those building the campground.

She as also offered to sit down for coffee with Anyone from this forum and chat about the subject. I will make available her contact info as a download as well. From what I've seen of the work she's done, I fully support her efforts.


GuilfordGang,

Our intent was to show that you are late because the word is slow to get out and not because of anything you did or didn't do. We are happy that there is another neighbor on board. The bigger the group the more successful you will be. Susan and your group should reach out to people, expecting people to reach out to you will not get you the results you need. Having been to the meetings we see a pattern that is similar to other meetings we have been at with the preserve. Clearly the dialog is tense, lawyers are present etc.... PIPC is really out of line in their approach as is the Mohonk Preserve. While you may not feel screwed now, our experience shows this feeling will not last long...... And while it's possible everything will work out well for you, I wouldn't hold my breath. That is great news that you will be posting documents. Hopefully that will get some of the regular posters here on board. Feel free to post them on any of our threads which get heavy traffic and are viewed by many locals. I would also try to get your story in more of the local papers. Keep it going, week after week, be relentless because they are for sure. Best of luck,

MPNA

_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#64198 - 04/25/12 03:19 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Julie]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Julie
I'd rather have a campground than a subdivision. I'm not against the campground. What I do want is reasonable implementation and respect for those who live there.

This seems perfectly reasonable to me. I hope it comes to pass. I'd love to camp in a ground with real sites, real showers and most importantly to me, real quiet.

I have to say: I hope it comes to pass, and doesn't become the usual "my way or the highway" blockade.

I'm also very interested in seeing the actual plan. I'm not interested in sitting for coffee and talking about protesting and letters and signatures and negotiations and endless innuendo; I'm interested in the plan. Does it have a big pavilion for 200+ people rave parties, or not? (I'm guessing 'not').

I've googled and seen the same things you guys have: a 50-site campground with some basic facilities.

Guilford, I do need to ask: are you a climber? Presumably you at a minimum knew you were buying land near the MUA, which is very close to the new site.



280+ person pavilion. As per the last meeting....

Thanks,MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64199 - 04/25/12 04:12 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
So if I disagree with you then I am negative, bickering and you get to presume, put words in my mouth, and name call? yes i wrote whine, cause cmon...you kinda are!
All of your posts her on this climbing website are about you concerns with your weekend home. I have three campgrounds near my home and sometimes they have events and concerts etc. I enjoy hearing that at times as they are good family fun, the noise ends at 10pm and is usually only on weekends. I presume the conditions at your camp will be even less impactful as they are not for firemen and police as are the ones near me.
I am being nice now....gloves no where near off.

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#64200 - 04/25/12 04:36 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: crimpy
So if I disagree with you then I am negative, bickering and you get to presume, put words in my mouth, and name call? yes i wrote whine, cause cmon...you kinda are!
All of your posts her on this climbing website are about you concerns with your weekend home. I have three campgrounds near my home and sometimes they have events and concerts etc. I enjoy hearing that at times as they are good family fun, the noise ends at 10pm and is usually only on weekends. I presume the conditions at your camp will be even less impactful as they are not for firemen and police as are the ones near me.
I am being nice now....gloves no where near off.



Hey GuilfordGang,

these are the types of people who will be right in your backyard. Time to reign in this mess before they are trying to claim prescriptive easements or worse...

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64201 - 04/25/12 05:01 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: crimpy
So if I disagree with you then I am negative, bickering and you get to presume, put words in my mouth, and name call? yes i wrote whine, cause cmon...you kinda are!
All of your posts her on this climbing website are about you concerns with your weekend home. I have three campgrounds near my home and sometimes they have events and concerts etc. I enjoy hearing that at times as they are good family fun, the noise ends at 10pm and is usually only on weekends. I presume the conditions at your camp will be even less impactful as they are not for firemen and police as are the ones near me.
I am being nice now....gloves no where near off.



First off it's not a climbing website......second, what difference does it make if it's his second, third or fourth home? He has a right to protect his investment/future home. And why add the I'm being nice now...... bit? What does that even mean? Are you planning on being less nice? These are people you should be trying have a good relationship with. A few bad apples will ruin it for all. If neighborly relations continue to sour you can bet that Future projects will be met with strong opposition and more land will likely close (more on that later).

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64202 - 04/25/12 05:03 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
Now you are sounding quite elitist, true colors shining brightly!
At the top of the page it reads"gunks.com climbing discussion"

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#64203 - 04/25/12 05:15 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Guiford Gang, I stated writing to comment on this:

I can understand resentment against weekenders, they try to influence policy in a place they arent real residents of. They generally try to make it more like where they are from, rather than enjoying the place for what it is.

1) Assuming you pay taxes in Gardiner, you are not a guest there. You have a stake in the outcome, unlike many on this board. I'd also disagree that

2) I suspect owner/weekenders in that area are more likely to try to limit growth. Its their getaway place, they need little and can bring it with them. They generally aren't trying to make a living or a short term profit from the area as a local business owner might.

This is a public board. You are not a guest (of ours) here either rather we are all guests of the owner.

The animosity of this group towards MPNA and AG has little to do with the any issue. It is their insistence that climbers should unite against the preserver for their benefit. And more importantly as you have seen the way they go about it. As you noted the do their cause a disservice alienating much of the climbing community on this board against them rather than gaining support for their cause, regardless of whether it is legitimate.

To AG pretty sure this site was started primarily as a climbing web site. That's why there is Climbing Discussion and GCC in the primary choices, why there used to be route grades and climbing tips etc on it, and why its primary advertisers were directly or indirectly affected by the climbing community. Heck its why you and MPNA have been here to get climber support.

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#64204 - 04/25/12 05:20 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: crimpy
Now you are sounding quite elitist, true colors shining brightly!
At the top of the page it reads"gunks.com climbing discussion"



And what does it say after that....keep on reading crimpy, you'll find the answer. We know you can do it! Besides 90% of your posts are not climbing related. What gives? Anyway pretty good for Wawarsing.....(said in my most non elitest voice that I can muster) wink

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64205 - 04/25/12 07:25 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
you are mean....sniffle.

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#64206 - 04/25/12 07:45 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Hey Mark Heyman,

Your post reads like you are a local. You can "understand resentment....." give us a break. How many acres do you own in the land of subdivisions? Chances are the weekender you are trying to portray is you (minus the land). There are landowners around these parts who have had land in their families since the 1700's as well as people who just bought today....they all have the same say in our opinion. The people who do not have a say is You, the non land owning, non local, overdeveloped Jersey boy type. Look, if you don't like our delivery stop responding. The fact is your group has acted and continues to act like a group of spoiled children. You'll get the respect and civil dialog when you earn it. Until then, you'll be treated like the brats you are (said in a motherly calm voice) and get the response you deserve.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#64207 - 04/25/12 07:47 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: crimpy
you are mean....sniffle.


gloves no where near off..... wink

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#64208 - 04/25/12 07:51 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: crimpy
you are mean....sniffle.


hey if you only had a heart you might see it our way..... Come on Crimpy! Courage! Courage!

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#64209 - 04/25/12 08:07 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
BTW has anyone seen the trash at the MUA? Totally gross! piles and piles of garbage. We'll try and upload some photos. I guess that's what the neighbors have in store for them.

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64210 - 04/25/12 08:32 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
I would like to see the plans as they are now, since I was involved somewhat from early on. the question about the pavilion was raised early on. The gunks campground is supposed to be modeled after the AAC Teton climbers' ranch, the pavilion is for cooking with stoves only. the showers may be next door? early on it was decided there should be a campground manager permanently on site to police quiet hours and all the rules. I believe we had discussed no fires. The place should be as quiet and low profile as possible. and, if possible, no alcohol. if someone could post some link to see the current proposal, please do so.

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#64211 - 04/25/12 08:37 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: phlan]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
oh yeah. the trash at the MUA. I was involved in trash clean ups there for several years in a row, and then we threw up our hands and gave up. it was too disgusting. the DEC of course, threw up their hands years before that.

one of the main reasons, why Gardiner needs a well run, policed pay campground.

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#64212 - 04/25/12 08:41 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
wow your bi polar fit has given you even more credibility. seems like my work here is done.

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#64213 - 04/25/12 09:21 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: phlan]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 142
Here's the original (circa 11/2009) Campground Site Plan
The Master Plan makes for some good reading.

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#64214 - 04/25/12 09:44 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Ralph]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Ralph
Here's the original (circa 11/2009) Campground Site Plan
The Master Plan makes for some good reading.



Even if it's 3 yrs old it's good to have as a comparison. Thanks for posting this.

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64215 - 04/25/12 10:33 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
This has gotten out of hand. Just one of the troubles with the 'net and anonymity on forums. I'd like to respond to some of the posts here but there's too much to cover. I'm creating a Facebook group to continue the discussion. Here's the idea and requirements:

This group is for the local community to discuss the Shawangunk Gateway Campground, its development, and the effects on the community. All are welcome to join who have a direct interest in the campground, including local administration, the PIPC, neighbors, climbers, campers and more.

In order to join the group, please message one of the admins. You must use your real name in the group for posting and state your interest in the project, i.e. hiker, resident, camper, PIPC admin, climber, etc...

Keep it civil.

No name calling, trolling, or foul language.

Do not misrepresent who you are or your reason for joining.


Feel free to head on over, I'd really like to see the discussion continue there in a civil manner. Hopefully most everybody has a facebook account. I'll be posting anything I can dig up about the subject on that group.

Thanks to everyone that has joined the discussion here, and the Gunks.com site for the venue. I won't be posting anything else here.

Facebook group: Shawangunk Gateway Campground

https://www.facebook.com/groups/352765934771681/


Edited by GuilfordGang (04/25/12 10:35 PM)

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#64216 - 04/25/12 10:54 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
GuilfordGang Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 15
Loc: Currently Boston Area
All documents I have are now posted and available for download on the Facebook site, check the docs tab if you decide to join.

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#64222 - 04/26/12 02:37 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
These are people you should be trying have a good relationship with. A few bad apples will ruin it for all. If neighborly relations continue to sour you can bet that Future projects will be met with strong opposition and more land will likely close (more on that later).

Thanks, MPNA


Quoted for posterity.

Climbers, beware...you heard it here first: support MPNA in opposing the campground, or there will be more land closures.

Oh yea, THAT'S sure to win folks to your view.

(Reminds me of "The beatings will continue until morale improves")

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#64226 - 04/26/12 10:57 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mike Rawdon]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5978
Loc: 212 land
Lean budgets may keep this controversy brewing for years. Expect more posts in 2015 and beyond.
_________________________

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#64229 - 04/26/12 12:58 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: oenophore]
charliebutters Offline
addict

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 510
Loc: accord
are the bruderhof involved at all?

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#64230 - 04/26/12 01:18 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: GuilfordGang]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Yeah, don't do FB, but thats Ok. I saw Susan's docs. Good luck.



Originally Posted By: GuilfordGang
All documents I have are now posted and available for download on the Facebook site, check the docs tab if you decide to join.

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#64240 - 04/26/12 02:26 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I have stayed at the ACC Climber's Ranch in the Tetons twice. The pavillion is a perfect central meeting place for cooking and evening get togethers before everyone heads to bed. The rowdiest party I have seen there was a memorial service, which consisted of low volume music, drinking and the usual lies/stories about climbing. This would be a considerable inprovement on the current MUA, which was the site of my bachelor party many moons ago, back when it saw few campers and we had the entire area to ourselves on a beautiful May weekend.

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#64241 - 04/26/12 02:28 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
These are people you should be trying have a good relationship with. A few bad apples will ruin it for all. If neighborly relations continue to sour you can bet that Future projects will be met with strong opposition and more land will likely close (more on that later). Thanks, MPNA


Quoted for posterity.


And let's not forget this, from the person (excuse me, "group") that wants to strong-arm us, the mostly-weekender climbing population, into supporting his cause against the Preserve that feeds us:

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
How many acres do you own in the land of subdivisions? Chances are the weekender you are trying to portray is you (minus the land). There are landowners around these parts who have had land in their families since the 1700's as well as people who just bought today....they all have the same say in our opinion. The people who do not have a say is You, the non land owning, non local, overdeveloped Jersey boy type. Look, if you don't like our delivery stop responding. The fact is your group has acted and continues to act like a group of spoiled children. You'll get the respect and civil dialog when you earn it. Until then, you'll be treated like the brats you are (said in a motherly calm voice) and get the response you deserve.


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#64254 - 04/26/12 06:06 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Julie]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Now that you agree with us, you'll find or form a more influential group and quit badgering us?

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#64261 - 04/26/12 07:33 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
It's interesting that the town of gardiner and Mohonk Preserve are represented by the same attorney.



In the same case?

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#64262 - 04/26/12 08:14 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
It's interesting that the town of gardiner and Mohonk Preserve are represented by the same attorney.



In the same case?



There is no "case" or lawsuit yet. The Gardiner town attorney is Paul Kellar and he is also the Attorney for Mohonk Preserve. From what we have read he has advised both parties.

Thanks,MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#64268 - 04/26/12 11:10 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
280+ person pavilion. As per the last meeting....


To set things straighter AG ever will: the docs I saw include the same very small pavilion as before, as posted in the 2009 plans linked above.

Most of what I saw is the neighbors looking for very specific, and mostly fairly reasonable, rules and/or limits on the campground. It didn't look like the proposing groups had basically gotten around to being that specific yet, or at least from what I saw. It's unfortunate that this has already gotten to lawyers.

Separately, the plans also call for the possibility of up to 4 events of 300+ (this number seemed to grow with each iteration, and I'm not sure why) person gatherings, only to be held by the MP or the AAC, and which would end by 10 pm.

I tend to agree with their point that any group looking to host a 300+ person event ... really needs to find another space to do it in, and those spaces do already exist, that doesn't land in a bunch of backyards. Can you imagine a 300+ person gathering at the MUA? I think the neighbors are also worried about the precedent of allowing bigger MP/AAC events there, and whether that could eventually lead to private parties.

I can only cross my fingers that an agreement is reached that satisfies the neighbors, and that the campground comes to pass.

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#64270 - 04/27/12 01:13 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
It's interesting that the town of gardiner and Mohonk Preserve are represented by the same attorney.



In the same case?



There is no "case" or lawsuit yet. The Gardiner town attorney is Paul Kellar and he is also the Attorney for Mohonk Preserve. From what we have read he has advised both parties.

Thanks,MPNA


If they aren't represented by a lawyer, they can't be represented by the same lawyer.
More misrepresentation.

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#64275 - 04/27/12 12:56 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mark Heyman]
charliebutters Offline
addict

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 510
Loc: accord
500 yards is over 1/4 mile, seems ok to me.

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#64282 - 04/27/12 04:03 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: charliebutters]
skl Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 4
Hi all,

I saw this discussion after most of it had already taken place, and I don't intend to butt in. But I should mention one thing. The nearest house to the campground boundary is actually a little over 50 yards away, not 500 yards. The entire campground site is within no more than 200 yards from existing houses. You can verify this for yourself using the resource in my original posting at the very top of this thread: the publicly available county tax maps on http://gis.co.ulster.ny.us/. Zoom in near the intersection of 299 and 44/55 until the "Aerial photos" layer is enabled, and select the "2009 Infrared" photo layer. You'll be able to see the driveways, and the houses at the end of them, in blue. The campground site is the fourth parcel from the intersection, on the south side of 299. You can use the measurement tool (the icon with the ruler and question mark) to estimate distances. It's approximate, but it will give you a rough idea.

I mention this only because those who camp at the site and those who live near it will be close neighbors. A few posters upthread commented that they just want a quiet, peaceful place to camp. That's pretty much the same thing the people living nearby want: a quiet, peaceful place (I'm speaking only for myself here, but I'm fairly sure the vast majority feel that way). I think we can all have that, and the campground and surrounding residential neighborhood can coexist peacefully, if we're conscious of--and sensitive to--each others' close proximity. That's why I reached out to the group on this forum. I appreciate having the chance to do so. And I'd be happy to talk in person with anyone who's interested.

Best regards,
Susan Lewis

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#64283 - 04/27/12 04:59 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: skl]
charliebutters Offline
addict

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 510
Loc: accord
sounds reasonable, thanks!

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#64284 - 04/27/12 05:08 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: charliebutters]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
It's interesting to us that both the State and the Mohonk Preserve can't seem to manage the two (MUA, Slime) campgrounds they already have. Why give them the opportunity to create another garbage dump near peoples homes? They should clean up what they have, show the neighbors it can work on a small scale and then approach the neighbors with a reasonable solution sans the pavilion for 300 person events and with a set of policies the neighbors can live with.

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64286 - 04/27/12 05:21 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
The phone number for complaints at the MUA goes to an office in Long Island!!! The L.I. office said they get 2 calls per day complaining about the campground and were confused as to why people kept calling L.I. for a campground in Gardiner since it is not their zone.

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64287 - 04/27/12 05:36 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: skl]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Thank you.

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#64295 - 04/27/12 08:48 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
it must be added to my earlier posts, and above, that the MUA is to be CLOSED when the new campground is opened, replacing an unmanaged filthy hole with a well run, clean, quiet campground. also, the kind of people that use the MUA are often undesirables, often not even recreationalists they just come there to party, drink, make noise, etc. the new campground would firmly solve this problem in that the AAC campgrounds are climbers only. not that they are always the highest life forms on earth, but on average way better than what you might find at the MUA.
I am speaking the most recent info I have, if any if this has changed (I hope not) I'd like to know.

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#64370 - 04/30/12 02:49 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: phlan]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: phlan
it must be added to my earlier posts, and above, that the MUA is to be CLOSED when the new campground is opened, replacing an unmanaged filthy hole with a well run, clean, quiet campground. also, the kind of people that use the MUA are often undesirables, often not even recreationalists they just come there to party, drink, make noise, etc. the new campground would firmly solve this problem in that the AAC campgrounds are climbers only. not that they are always the highest life forms on earth, but on average way better than what you might find at the MUA.
I am speaking the most recent info I have, if any if this has changed (I hope not) I'd like to know.



Why not just put it on the north side of 299?
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64380 - 04/30/12 06:19 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)

It not your land? Perhaps you shouldn't have a say in it!
Perhaps you could donate the land you'd like to see it on!

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#64396 - 05/01/12 02:11 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman

It not your land? Perhaps you shouldn't have a say in it!
Perhaps you could donate the land you'd like to see it on!





Just as a property owner possesses rights to use his property, he also holds rights to prevent others from using their land in a manner that harms him or his property. "Nuisance" describes a situation in which one landowner is using his property in a way that unreasonably limits the use of his neighbor's land.

A "public nuisance" causes distress to a large number of persons (an entire neighborhood or community) in the use of their land. For example, a cement factory, which discharges large amounts of smoke and dust, may amount to a public nuisance, or a campground that will create noise, garbage, trespass traffic issues, public safety issues etc....

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64399 - 05/01/12 02:36 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
rock and roll is the devils music.

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#64401 - 05/01/12 02:39 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
Advocacy group Offline
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Originally Posted By: crimpy
rock and roll is the devils music.


Because of the emphasis on the tritone?
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64402 - 05/01/12 02:41 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
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Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman

It not your land? Perhaps you shouldn't have a say in it!
Perhaps you could donate the land you'd like to see it on!





Just as a property owner possesses rights to use his property, he also holds rights to prevent others from using their land in a manner that harms him or his property. "Nuisance" describes a situation in which one landowner is using his property in a way that unreasonably limits the use of his neighbor's land.

A "public nuisance" causes distress to a large number of persons (an entire neighborhood or community) in the use of their land. For example, a cement factory, which discharges large amounts of smoke and dust, may amount to a public nuisance, or a campground that will create noise, garbage, trespass traffic issues, public safety issues etc....

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64405 - 05/01/12 02:43 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
i am too lazy to look that up...i win

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#64409 - 05/01/12 02:53 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
evil,evil,campgrounds and evil,evil,nature preserve....hahahahahahahahahahah!

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#64411 - 05/01/12 03:16 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group

"Nuisance" describes a situation in which one landowner is using his property in a way that unreasonably limits the use of his neighbor's land.


Doesnt sound as that applies.

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
A "public nuisance" causes distress to a large number of persons


Nor this. A few land owners surely wont qualify as a large number of persons.

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
a public nuisance, or a campground that will create noise, garbage, trespass traffic issues, public safety issues etc....


This was in the proposal?. Sounds like fears at worst.


Edited by Mark Heyman (05/01/12 03:19 AM)

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#64412 - 05/01/12 03:23 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group

"Nuisance" describes a situation in which one landowner is using his property in a way that unreasonably limits the use of his neighbor's land.


Doesnt sound as that applies.

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
A "public nuisance" causes distress to a large number of persons


Nor this. A few land owners surely wont qualify as a large number of persons.

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
a public nuisance, or a campground that will create noise, garbage, trespass traffic issues, public safety issues etc....


This was in the proposal?. Sounds like fears at worst.



Mark,

You're really out of touch. Where are you getting a "few" neighbors? If you bothered going to a meeting you would see how many there are.

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64413 - 05/01/12 03:34 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Posts: 653
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MPNA: "Nuisance" describes a situation in which one landowner is using his property in a way that unreasonably limits the use of his neighbor's land.


Mark Heyman: Doesnt sound as that applies.



You're right, it applies so little that the Mohonk Preserve is Meeting with the neighbors, lawyers and Town reps and adding PR positions. Good to see your donations paying for a bloated staff. Mohonk Preserve; Saving the land for life after we overpay ourselves first.......
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64420 - 05/01/12 01:28 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
webmaster Offline

veteran

Registered: 01/06/00
Posts: 1273
Loc: New Paltz (Kerhonkson, actuall...
You can PM each other now.
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#64433 - 05/01/12 03:15 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mark Heyman]
skl Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 4
Hi all,

Mark commented that the campground is near a few landowners. To offer a little more information: the campground site is surrounded by nine homes within about 200 yards of the boundary line. More than twenty homes are within about 500 yards (I'm ignoring garages, back yards, etc, and just focusing on people's homes). The number of houses within a specified radius depends on your exact location on the campground site, but the entire site is within 250 yards of surrounding houses. You can verify any of this using the online Ulster County GIS map I mentioned in a previous post.

I mention this because I think the campground and the people who live in the residential neighborhood surrounding it can coexist peacefully if everyone has accurate information about their surroundings. Happy to share any other info I have with anyone who's interested.

Best,
Susan

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#64442 - 05/01/12 05:09 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: skl]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Skl – For the record I sympathize with the relatively few neighbors who are actually close to this site regardless of how well it will be run. It's going to be noisier than woods were, and it will impact your privacy.

Im simply tired of what I consider to be the constant abuse of this website by a very few specific users. That these users have largely had negative impact in this community, themselves and their cause seems obvious to me … its not my site. I should just ignore it.

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#64450 - 05/01/12 07:38 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
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Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
It seems like if the current proposal would nix the pavilion gatherings and get some enforceable conduct language this would be acceptable to some of those neighbors who are now opposed. Is this accurate?
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64552 - 05/03/12 10:58 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Anyone notice a cleaner MUA this week?

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64635 - 05/04/12 10:46 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
joe2 Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/04/12
Posts: 2
If you build it they will come. Its not really feasible that they would build a pavillion and then not use it. The pavillion has bathrooms - it is there specifically for gatherings and events. That is its purpose, rather than anything to do with camping.

Now, can such large groups safely enter and exit the road there? I say no.

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#64638 - 05/04/12 11:42 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: joe2]
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Originally Posted By: joe2
If you build it they will come. Its not really feasible that they would build a pavillion and then not use it. The pavillion has bathrooms - it is there specifically for gatherings and events. That is its purpose, rather than anything to do with camping.

Now, can such large groups safely enter and exit the road there? I say no.


Thanks for posting Joe. It seems like a reasonable request of the neighbors to ask that the Mohonk Preserve nix the Pavilion and to have a reasonable set of rules that can be enforced. Please sign the petition that Susan Lewis has started on Change.org

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64644 - 05/04/12 01:46 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
it seems as though you represent the %1.
you dont have to insult me though, just my opinion.
i have confidence that hikers and climbers are skilled enough for ulster county road crossings.

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#64646 - 05/04/12 02:01 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
ianmanger Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Hey AG, I doubt skl would want you to misrepresent her groups intentions. Reading the MOA that Susan and her group proposed, there's no language in the Jan 24th letter about 'nixing the pavilion' only limiting the size and frequency of gatherings. (4 per year, max 100 people each). That's the latest proposal that Susan shared with me.

If that's been updated, please PU, (see, I'm asking nicely)

(never mind, I asked skl if she would clarify, hopefully she will.)


Edited by ianmanger (05/04/12 02:09 PM)
Edit Reason: update

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#64650 - 05/04/12 02:34 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
Advocacy group Offline
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Originally Posted By: ianmanger
Hey AG, I doubt skl would want you to misrepresent her groups intentions. Reading the MOA that Susan and her group proposed, there's no language in the Jan 24th letter about 'nixing the pavilion' only limiting the size and frequency of gatherings. (4 per year, max 100 people each). That's the latest proposal that Susan shared with me.

If that's been updated, please PU, (see, I'm asking nicely)

(never mind, I asked skl if she would clarify, hopefully she will.)



Hey Ian Manger, I think the last meeting we attended was after the 24 th. At any rate, at the meeting there was strong opposition to "the pavilion" and for all intents and purposes that means the proposed events that the Mohonk Preserve wants to hold there. Even Carl Zatz proposed just eliminating the pavilion so the dialog could continue. While some neighbors may just want to limit the use of the pavilion, others want a less bloated, lighter on the land campground while others want the whole idea canned. What it looked like to us at the meeting was that the neighbors came in with very reasonable requests and the Mohonk Preserve and PIPC ignored the most important requests like the pavilion and alcohol issue.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64653 - 05/04/12 02:58 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
ianmanger Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Yes, I get that there would be a diversity of opinions on this but somehow the neighbors have previously reached a consensus about what they would find acceptable and made a set of proposals around that. I agree that having those proposals ignored is frustrating. If that consensus is shifting/hardening from simply limiting use, that's helpful to know. Thanks.

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group



Hey Ian Manger, I think the last meeting we attended was after the 24 th. At any rate, at the meeting there was strong opposition to "the pavilion" and for all intents and purposes that means the proposed events that the Mohonk Preserve wants to hold there. Even Carl Zatz proposed just eliminating the pavilion so the dialog could continue. While some neighbors may just want to limit the use of the pavilion, others want a less bloated, lighter on the land campground while others want the whole idea canned. What it looked like to us at the meeting was that the neighbors came in with very reasonable requests and the Mohonk Preserve and PIPC ignored the most important requests like the pavilion and alcohol issue.

Thanks, MPNA

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#64654 - 05/04/12 03:28 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
Advocacy group Offline
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The way it appeared to us was that the neighbors were looking for clarification from Mohonk Preserve and PIPC about the use of the pavilion and PIPC and Mohonk Preserve really danced around the issue. Jim Hall is particularly curt to the point of being nasty and often brings up that the PIPC does not have to follow local zoning. All the while Glenn Hoagland and Ron Knapp sit there nodding their heads. Again we're not sure why the campground just can't be placed on the north side of 299. This would eliminate any trespass, light pollution and place the campsites far away from these neighbors. It would also eliminate the issue of people having to cross 299 to access the Mohonk Preserve.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64676 - 05/04/12 08:28 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
skl Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 4
Hi all,

Sorry for the slow response to a direct request for clarification above (and apologies in advance for any future delays—I'm not able to check in as often as I'd like). The proposals from the group I'm involved with haven't asked that the pavilion be deleted from the plan. Rather, they've asked only for limits on public events at the pavilion—especially ones bringing non-campers to the site—including their size, frequency, etc. That was true in our initial proposals last year, and continues to be true in our most recent proposal (late March—available on the Facebook page mentioned upthread).

There are different opinions about this. A town official mentioned the possibility of deleting the pavilion at the meeting preceding our March proposal, and some agree that removing the pavilion from the plan altogether could do more to prevent any potential problems related to public events than the limits we've proposed would. But the organizations planning the campground seemed to feel strongly that the pavilion was an important part of the plan and they didn't want to delete it. I personally feel that the limits we proposed instead are an acceptable compromise, assuming the organizations involved agree and they're formalized and enforced.

Best,
Susan

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#64690 - 05/05/12 01:59 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: skl]
Aya Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 754
Loc: Climbing somewhere
Thank you Susan. I don't post in threads where MPNA posts anymore due to obvious reasons evident in this thread, but please do know that I am reading what you are writing and thankful that there is someone involved who is relaying to us the actual facts in a calm, informative, non-combative, non-distorted and non-manipulative manner. Thank you very much for clarifying. I hope you will continue to pop in from time to time.

-Aya
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Gunks T-Shirts!

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#65027 - 05/28/12 02:54 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Aya]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Please check out the letters and documents that Susan has made available. They are worth looking at and will confirm that the preserve is trying to use the pavilion for gatherings of 380 people with unlimited frequency. Please write to the preserve and tell them this is unacceptable.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65028 - 05/28/12 04:27 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Online   content
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
They are worth looking at and will confirm that the preserve is trying to use the pavilion for gatherings of 380 people with unlimited frequency.

Through out this thread, a figure of 280 has been cited, including by you. Now it's 380? When will you bump it up to an even 500? Please tell us this was a typo and not an exaggeration intended to inflame.

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#65029 - 05/28/12 05:10 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
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Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
They are worth looking at and will confirm that the preserve is trying to use the pavilion for gatherings of 380 people with unlimited frequency.

Through out this thread, a figure of 280 has been cited, including by you. Now it's 380? When will you bump it up to an even 500? Please tell us this was a typo and not an exaggeration intended to inflame.



RetroMarcC,

We understand it's hard for you to really know what's going on in the Gunks being that you're from Sandy Utah and have no stake in the outcome. But once again we will try and walk you through this. The 280 figure was an earlier figure that the Mohonk preserve used in an earlier meeting with neighbors and the 380 figure is a later proposal that the attorney for the neighbors Responds to in his letter to Glenn Hoagland and Jim Hall based on a more recent meeting. You got it now?

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65030 - 05/28/12 05:16 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Hey RetroMarcC,

what's up with referring to yourself in the plural when you are trying to attack people. You frequently use the form "us" or "we" as if to bolster your position. Or do you have multiple personalities? Just curious as many of your posts here and on other forums repeat the same error.... With about 30 seconds of searching I came up with the following MarcCisms

We can add....
protect early and often

Don, we just don't give a rats ass.

What? You're a 95 yr old British guy? Oh. Maybe you mean more modern. Odd, we don't see your name on any FAs or FFAs in the 60's in Yosemite, Boulder, or the Gunks.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65032 - 05/28/12 05:46 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
A few more:

Ding! Wrong answer. You're comparing a recreational activity to a business, with no commonality between the two (although recreational demolition has a certain appeal).
Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

If you spew the chemtrail hoax, then anything else you may say is probably nonsense as well. Same for fluoridation of water and any of your other irrational phobias. But seeing that you've basically hijacked a discussion forum with few users as your personal plaything, it probably doesn't matter. Does this mean we can post random shit and paranoia in any topic?
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65055 - 05/29/12 10:01 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 142
Uh oh. 380 people was the same number they told Max Yasgur to expect.

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#65059 - 05/30/12 03:00 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Ralph]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
watch out for those campground types...they often travel as families!

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#65061 - 05/30/12 01:31 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
pda Offline
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Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Quote:
The 280 figure was an earlier figure that the Mohonk preserve used in an earlier meeting with neighbors and the 380 figure is a later proposal that the attorney for the neighbors Responds to in his letter to Glenn Hoagland and Jim Hall based on a more recent meeting. You got it now?

Yes I do - as you've told us here, its hearsay from unreliable sources. Thanks MPNA!

Quote:
Rather, they've asked only for limits on public events at the pavilion especially ones bringing non-campers to the site including their size, frequency, etc.

I hope we can all agree with Susan that this is a good idea.

Here is what the plan actually says about the pavilion (Chapter 6):
Quote:
A small bathhouse with showers, toilets and laundry facilities will be constructed in this general entrance area, along with a small attached pavilion. A fire ring for patron use will be installed adjacent to this pavilion, since individual campfires at each campsite will be prohibited.

I'm guessing that the usage estimates being thrown around are in some way multiplying the maximum possible number of guests per site with the total number of sites to be built.

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#65063 - 05/30/12 03:52 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: pda]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
If I remember correctly, when then American Alpine Club president Jim Donini introduced the plan for this campground to an Mohonk Preserver audience a few seasons back the pavilion was intended to offer a central area within the campground for campers to come together for socializing, cooking, eating etc.

This question. Now a few years later, what is the AAC's current roll in the development of this campground?

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#65065 - 05/30/12 05:21 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
this is from the AAC site, but is about a year old. the full extent of their current role is not known to me, but likely includes consulting, advocacy, and some limited preliminary funding for the studies required in permitting and siting.

Since 2006, in partnership with The Mohonk Preserve, the New York State Office of Parks, Recreation, and Historic Preservation, and the Palisades Interstate Park Commission, the American Alpine Club has been working toward the creation of a campground near the popular climbing area, the Shawangunks—or "The Gunks" for short.

The campground, as currently planned, will include approximately 50 drive-in and walk-in campsites, a central gathering area with cooking and shower facilities, and an indoor space where visitors can gather during rainy weather.

At present [July 2011], the design phase of the project is complete and the project is now in the permitting phase. Once appropriate permits have been secured from various agencies, construction bids will be solicited.

Further updates will be posted on this page and on americanalpineclub.org/news.

Our Partners in this project:


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#65068 - 05/30/12 06:00 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: phlan]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Thanks Phlan, that much I knew.

However, in all the recent discussions, or a newspaper article a few months ago, nary a mention of the AAC's role in the project which began at the very beginning.

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#65070 - 05/30/12 06:37 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
pda Offline
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Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Its my understanding that PIPC owns the campground but the Preserve and the AAC plan to jointly administer it.

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#65072 - 05/30/12 09:21 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: pda]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: pda
Its my understanding that PIPC owns the campground but the Preserve and the AAC plan to jointly administer it.


Yes, that was pretty much as it was earlier presented. I clarify my point. That is, there has been no recent mention of the AAC's current role. The AAC has a strong record in regard to this type of facility based on their track record with the Climber's Ranch in the Teton's. If they are still going to be involved with the new campground, responsible for onsite management with the MP, then I believe that many of the concerns shared with the local residents will be non-issues. This campground plan is nothing like what existed previously at the MUA.

Regarding possible noise or traffic issues at the new campground's pavilion during such events that the PIPC or MP might hold there, have there been issues with such events held at the Spring Farm pavilion?

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#65073 - 05/30/12 10:04 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
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Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: pda
Its my understanding that PIPC owns the campground but the Preserve and the AAC plan to jointly administer it.


Yes, that was pretty much as it was earlier presented. I clarify my point. That is, there has been no recent mention of the AAC's current role. The AAC has a strong record in regard to this type of facility based on their track record with the Climber's Ranch in the Teton's. If they are still going to be involved with the new campground, responsible for onsite management with the MP, then I believe that many of the concerns shared with the local residents will be non-issues. This campground plan is nothing like what existed previously at the MUA.

Regarding possible noise or traffic issues at the new campground's pavilion during such events that the PIPC or MP might hold there, have there been issues with such events held at the Spring Farm pavilion?



Not a very good argument Rick as both the spring farm pavilion and the climbers ranch at the Tetons have No neighbors.......,
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65074 - 05/30/12 11:15 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: pda
Its my understanding that PIPC owns the campground but the Preserve and the AAC plan to jointly administer it.


Yes, that was pretty much as it was earlier presented. I clarify my point. That is, there has been no recent mention of the AAC's current role. The AAC has a strong record in regard to this type of facility based on their track record with the Climber's Ranch in the Teton's. If they are still going to be involved with the new campground, responsible for onsite management with the MP, then I believe that many of the concerns shared with the local residents will be non-issues. This campground plan is nothing like what existed previously at the MUA.

Regarding possible noise or traffic issues at the new campground's pavilion during such events that the PIPC or MP might hold there, have there been issues with such events held at the Spring Farm pavilion?



Not a very good argument Rick as both the spring farm pavilion and the climbers ranch at the Tetons have No neighbors.......,


Not meant as an argument. But, seeking additional information via an easy simple question.

So, recognizing that the Climbers Ranch's only neighbors are wildlife, I asked about any issues at the MP's Springfarm facility. A quick look at google maps shows that there are in fact neighbors along Stoke's Way, Lower 27 Knolls Rd, and further out along Mohonk Rd. Granted they are further away and at a lower density. But, they too are neighbors. Something I had presumed you would know, being their "advocate".

So, the question remains once again. Have there been (noise or traffic) issues related to the pavilion at Spring Farm?

Or, are these current concerns founded only on the past history of the poorly planned, and poorly managed DEC campground at the MUA?

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#65076 - 05/31/12 12:46 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Not meant as an argument. But, seeking additional information via an easy simple question.

to this guy, everything is an argument, especially if you seem even remotely sympathetic to the Preserve.

Originally Posted By: Rickster
So, recognizing that the Climbers Ranch's only neighbors are wildlife, I asked about any issues at the MP's Springfarm facility. A quick look at google maps shows that there are in fact neighbors along Stoke's Way, Lower 27 Knolls Rd, and further out along Mohonk Rd. Granted they are further away and at a lower density. But, they too are neighbors. Something I had presumed you would know, being their "advocate".{/quote]
Chris Ulrich is only an advocate to those willing to stroke his ego and proclaim the Preserve is the ultimate evil.

[quote=Rickster]Or, are these current concerns founded only on the past history of the poorly planned, and poorly managed DEC campground at the MUA?

Probably. And the fact that the Preserve is involved.

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#65077 - 05/31/12 12:57 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Hey RetroMarcC,

what's up with referring to yourself in the plural when you are trying to attack people. You frequently use the form "us" or "we" as if to bolster your position. Or do you have multiple personalities? Just curious as many of your posts here and on other forums repeat the same error.... With about 30 seconds of searching I came up with the following MarcCisms

We can add....
protect early and often

Don, we just don't give a rats ass.

What? You're a 95 yr old British guy? Oh. Maybe you mean more modern. Odd, we don't see your name on any FAs or FFAs in the 60's in Yosemite, Boulder, or the Gunks.

This coming from a guy who thinks his 10 sycophants are a powerful group. Are you some kind of stalker? Why do you think I live in Utah and that I'm this Marcc guy? You don't know a damned thing about me.

"We" meaning the all the other users of this site that read your drivel. It can also mean the Gunks climbing community and Preserve users who have to continue increasing our donations to pay for fighting your petty, retaliative lawsuits. How's that court injunction working out for you? The use of "we" is hardly something new or unique in net forums. Almost everyone has used it at one point or another, including yourself.

It's so much fun watching your blood boil. Do you have a throbbing forehead vein? How's your blood pressure these days?

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#65078 - 05/31/12 01:06 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: pda
Its my understanding that PIPC owns the campground but the Preserve and the AAC plan to jointly administer it.


Yes, that was pretty much as it was earlier presented. I clarify my point. That is, there has been no recent mention of the AAC's current role. The AAC has a strong record in regard to this type of facility based on their track record with the Climber's Ranch in the Teton's. If they are still going to be involved with the new campground, responsible for onsite management with the MP, then I believe that many of the concerns shared with the local residents will be non-issues. This campground plan is nothing like what existed previously at the MUA.

Regarding possible noise or traffic issues at the new campground's pavilion during such events that the PIPC or MP might hold there, have there been issues with such events held at the Spring Farm pavilion?



Not a very good argument Rick as both the spring farm pavilion and the climbers ranch at the Tetons have No neighbors.......,


Not meant as an argument. But, seeking additional information via an easy simple question.

So, recognizing that the Climbers Ranch's only neighbors are wildlife, I asked about any issues at the MP's Springfarm facility. A quick look at google maps shows that there are in fact neighbors along Stoke's Way, Lower 27 Knolls Rd, and further out along Mohonk Rd. Granted they are further away and at a lower density. But, they too are neighbors. Something I had presumed you would know, being their "advocate".

So, the question remains once again. Have there been (noise or traffic) issues related to the pavilion at Spring Farm?

Or, are these current concerns founded only on the past history of the poorly planned, and poorly managed DEC campground at the MUA?



So it becomes clearer that you really do not know who the neighbors are Rick. Why would the houses on Mohonk Rd care, they were built by the Smiley family and they still reside there. More ridge development by the "preservationists". The house on Upper 27 knolls is also owned by Mohonk and rented out to their staff. If you look at the Slingerland Pavilion PDF rental guidelines online you will notice that they only permit a "maximum of 115 guests from sunrise to sunset and the maximum duration of an event is 6 hrs" and "the event must not conflict with other visitors' use or quiet enjoyment of the resource.....or neighbors' privacy and security" and amplified music is prohibited. One must wonder why they feel the need to put a much more invasive project right in the neighbors back yard on 299?

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65079 - 05/31/12 01:15 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
In addition you must be a Mohonk Preserve member to rent out the Slingerland pavilion and have a MP staff member there for the duration of the event. But it's ok to have a pavilion with amplification and more than 3X the amount of people right in the neighbors back yard? It really seems unreasonable.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65080 - 05/31/12 01:19 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Hey RetroMarcC,

what's up with referring to yourself in the plural when you are trying to attack people. You frequently use the form "us" or "we" as if to bolster your position. Or do you have multiple personalities? Just curious as many of your posts here and on other forums repeat the same error.... With about 30 seconds of searching I came up with the following MarcCisms

We can add....
protect early and often

Don, we just don't give a rats ass.

What? You're a 95 yr old British guy? Oh. Maybe you mean more modern. Odd, we don't see your name on any FAs or FFAs in the 60's in Yosemite, Boulder, or the Gunks.

This coming from a guy who thinks his 10 sycophants are a powerful group. Are you some kind of stalker? Why do you think I live in Utah and that I'm this Marcc guy? You don't know a damned thing about me.

"We" meaning the all the other users of this site that read your drivel. It can also mean the Gunks climbing community and Preserve users who have to continue increasing our donations to pay for fighting your petty, retaliative lawsuits. How's that court injunction working out for you? The use of "we" is hardly something new or unique in net forums. Almost everyone has used it at one point or another, including yourself.

It's so much fun watching your blood boil. Do you have a throbbing forehead vein? How's your blood pressure these days?



Ok RetroMarcC........ but I believe you meant "why do you think we live in Utah and we're this MarcC guy" Fixed that for ya......
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65081 - 05/31/12 01:39 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Hey RetroMarcC,

what's up with referring to yourself in the plural when you are trying to attack people. You frequently use the form "us" or "we" as if to bolster your position. Or do you have multiple personalities? Just curious as many of your posts here and on other forums repeat the same error.... With about 30 seconds of searching I came up with the following MarcCisms

We can add....
protect early and often

Don, we just don't give a rats ass.

What? You're a 95 yr old British guy? Oh. Maybe you mean more modern. Odd, we don't see your name on any FAs or FFAs in the 60's in Yosemite, Boulder, or the Gunks.

This coming from a guy who thinks his 10 sycophants are a powerful group. Are you some kind of stalker? Why do you think I live in Utah and that I'm this Marcc guy? You don't know a damned thing about me.

"We" meaning the all the other users of this site that read your drivel. It can also mean the Gunks climbing community and Preserve users who have to continue increasing our donations to pay for fighting your petty, retaliative lawsuits. How's that court injunction working out for you? The use of "we" is hardly something new or unique in net forums. Almost everyone has used it at one point or another, including yourself.

It's so much fun watching your blood boil. Do you have a throbbing forehead vein? How's your blood pressure these days?



Ya see! there YOU go again with the "continue increasing OUR donations" . Just face it RetroMarcC, You have not increased Your donation to the preserve. Your name is not even on their donors list. Nice try though.......ROFL
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#65229 - 06/04/12 03:43 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
pda Offline
addict

Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
Quote:
what's up with referring to yourself in the plural when you are trying to attack people


Too funny . . . coming from a guy who calls himself a "Group"

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#65232 - 06/04/12 04:19 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Ya see! there YOU go again with the "continue increasing OUR donations" . Just face it RetroMarcC, You have not increased Your donation to the preserve. Your name is not even on their donors list. Nice try though.......ROFL

How could you know if my name is on the donors list when you don't know my name? And you still insist on confusing me with this MarcC guy for some reason.

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#65233 - 06/04/12 04:30 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
Because A.G. is a big fat nihilistic, hate filled troll.

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#65247 - 06/04/12 10:04 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
sandia Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 6
It's astonishing to me that Gunks Climbing Coalition/Access fund has had zero impact and input on this project. Illustrates their unfortunate irrelevance.

Also that American Alpine Club has been in zero communication with Gunks climbers about its involvement. Quite arrogant and wrong-headed, in my view.

Astonishing that discussion on this site has mainly revolved around concern of a few residents that attractions of Gunks may impact their privacy rights. One might think discussion here would instead be about the interests of climbers.

I am opposed to the AAC/Mohonk campground because its primary goal to is shut down free camping at MUA, a place that I like very much, and that could be expanded and made sustainable through simple, but deliberately ignored expedient of a rough parking lot.

Its supposed "problems" have never been studied, quantified or documented in any way that might justify its closing. I don't believe they are significant.

On less than 20 out of 365 days a year, is a bit crowded at MUA. But is free, and you can always stay there. AAC campground will be mostly closed during the year, and mostly, space will not be available.

So how is this an improvement?

I was banned from this site for insisting on these questions a year ago, and I am sure they are of little interest now.

I suggest the AAC/Mohonk campground at least redeem itself by offering weekly rock/rap concerts, heavily promoted on billboards throughout the region, during the few months it will be open annually.



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#65248 - 06/04/12 10:24 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
yessssssss......

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#65251 - 06/04/12 11:47 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Sandia, in Oct 2008 at a well attended gathering of old and new Gunks climbers held at the MP visitor center, then AAC president Jim Donini, past AAC president Jim McCarthy and others outlined plans for what was hoped to become a reality for the new campground. The AAC and Mohonk are not the only groups involved in the venture.

It is in the interest of climbers to be concerned about how the campground comes to be and how it effects the community.


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#65253 - 06/05/12 12:23 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
sandia Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 6
Not a peep out of AAC in four years?

So your point is what?

Are you defining community to include a half-dozen small property owners along with the 50,000 "climber-days" per season?

GCC guy likes to call this tiny group the "stake holders." Is politi-speak for wanna-be state representatives. Then you've got the millionaire bird-watcher creeps more-or-less running Monhonk. Also "stakeholders."

When I reached current AAC president three years ago (with great difficulty only following multiple emails to many board members) and inquired, his claimed his awareness of MUA issue was zero.

He said he wasn't interested.

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#65256 - 06/05/12 01:07 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Sandia,
My point was that the AAC did make it's plans known. Since then the other partners took over the process of developing this project.

Why wouldn't "community" include a half dozen small property owners. Would it be better if they were large property owners. I don't agree with their fears of what may happen at the new facility when it comes about, but they do have a stake in this as members of the community.

You've used the term 50,000 "climber days" per season. I am not sure what that has to do with what makes up a community.

Have you some info regarding the dates of the new campground's season? I've not seen it posted or printed. What exactly is this short season?

Do you also mean that the "GCC guy" or maybe the "stake holders" are "wanna-be state representatives"? Even if that were so, what does it matter?

You certainly seem terribly disgruntled that you were not involved in this process. That's unfortunate, I wasn't involved either, so were a lot of other folks. I beleave many are good with that. Unfortunately, it seems now that there are more than a few on both sides of the argument that feel left out of the loop.

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#65295 - 06/06/12 12:37 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
sandia Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 6
You are correct. I was uninvolved in developing AAC camp. So was EVERYONE else with an active and actual interest ("stakeholders").

I spoke to Mr. Powerz (that be) of AAC several years ago, and asked that AAC refrain from participating unless AAC could assure their efforts NOT result on closing of MUA.

Today the official written plan to close MUA to camping is tied directly to AAC efforts. So we certainly can blame the American Alpine Club.

Perhaps they will soon hold their "Black Tie Dinner" at the campground?

I also spoke to relevant DEC guy regarding this around the same time. He was very polite, unlike AAC director.

When MUA is closed to camping, it will be a resource gone forever along with an important slice of the Gunks' cultural history that goes back to the beginning.

One might expect the Access Fund would be interested in preserving the historical access to free camping in the Gunks.

I wrote to the national group and this was ignored. Their notably ineffectual local affiliate, the Gunks Climbing Coalition, offered, through a Mr. Spetz, a somewhat convoluted and negative response to my concern.

The micro-culture of this discussion board seems to reflect a similar disinterest.

The whole point of AAC campground is to provide justification for closing MUA, a stated goal of Mohonk for a fair number of years.

DEC has been "managing" MUA with this goal (closing it) much in mind for at least a decade. Their long, long neglect of parking lot construction there has been nothing short of irresponsible.

There is no long-term guarantee that the paltry 50 camping slots to be available via reservation for a fee, and only for an uncertain "high season" at AAC campground, will be available over the long-term future or even beyond a few years.

You may recall the Appalachian Mountain Club in 1980s purchased an operated a hikers' lodge in the Catskills. They closed it within a few years.

AMC had 2010 revenue of $20.8 million. AAC had 2010 revenue of $1.16 million, down 31 percent (and 2010 expense of $1.81 million).

Mohonk revenue in 2010 was $2.51 million. (see GuideStar.com)

If AMC can happily walk away from their projects, so can the relatively tiny AAC.

How is that 87 Motel doing these days?

Maybe I'll run into Big (fat) Jim McCarthy there. Oh, I forgot: As a retired Ivy League/Wall Street Lawyer, McCarthy'll probably be at Mohonk House when he jets in from Jackson Hole (if Mohonk has taken to allowing ethnic Catholics these days).


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#65314 - 06/06/12 08:20 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Quote:
I spoke to Mr. Powerz (that be) of AAC several years ago, and asked that AAC refrain from participating unless AAC could assure their efforts NOT result on closing of MUA.

Today the official written plan to close MUA to camping is tied directly to AAC efforts. So we certainly can blame the American Alpine Club.


While I, too, was unhappy when I realized the new c/g would close Slime(yes) and MUA, I also realized that in the years previous people had been all over this board bitching about why can't we have a better campground. I, too, thought "People will be sorry - they might get what they wished for, but without realizing at what cost."

I also recall people coming on this site years ago saying "Hey! We have to save the MUA!" Only that's all they would do! Talk is cheap. Saying "We" when what one really means is "You"(and not even knowing who that you they are referring to is) is worse than complacency.

Perhaps I am reading your intent incorrectly, but it seems you tie your particular request(not to close MUA) with the outcome. It might be that your note was read and perhaps then forgotten about. Did you receive a response acknowledging the statement about closing MUA? If not, I don't see that it is accurate to consider that request as being tied in with AAC actions. It's sort of similar as if I wrote a note asking that hot dogs and soda be sold at the c/g, and then being mad that there were no hot dogs and sodas for sale.


Quote:
...notably ineffectual local affiliate, the Gunks Climbing Coalition..


You are entitled to your opinion, but I think it is unfair. I think the CGG *could* do a better job at communicating the myriad of actions they take on our behalf, but I also realize that these people are volunteering generously of their time, and that there is only so many hours in a day.

I was speaking to the secretery of the CGG during the recent volunteer day at Minnewaska, where we worked on the access road to a new section of cliff that will be opened to climbing. She and others were discussing the absurd amount of effort that had gone into getting to this point - participating in all sorts of surveys on impact and other issues, meetings with so many officials, and so much more. She said something about "If only people knew how much has gone into this, for this one small advancement..."

And that is what it is - ONE advancement. Not the ONLY thing they have been working on. Recall the GCC was integral in the Rosendale Water Works section. They also have hosted gundraisers which donate to the Gardiner Volunteer Firemen, who come to our aid whenever someone is injured and support for the evac is required. The fundraisers have purchased gear for the Rescue caches at the preserve too.

Anyone saying the GCC is ineffectual ought the be attending a few of their monthly meetings before making that assertation. That, of course, is only my opinion, but I have sat in on a few, and can say that I have absolutely seen that they are very involved and working for positive progress in this region.

It may very well be that the GCC has priorities that are not the same as some of our own, but again - if not at the meetings asking "what about such and such?" - then how can they consider that such and such even should be on their radar?

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#65317 - 06/07/12 12:33 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
sandia Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 6
I had a telephone conversation with director of American Alpine Club several years ago. He fist ignored my requests for this conversation.

I then politely pointed out to many board members that "He" would not speak to me about the issue, which I carefully explained to each board member.

Apparently these board members contacted him. He them called me and was clearly peeved that a mere interested person would ask to speak with him, given his terribly busy schedule in Colorado.

In this conversation, I carefully and politely explained to Mr. Powers how the permanent loss of the MUA and his project were inextricably linked. He said he was unaware of the issue.

I explained how, while the AAC project would be welcome, the loss of the MUA would be irreplaceable. Obviously, he wasn't interested.

I had a similar conversation around this time, with relevant DEC planner. I asked whether any quantitative studies had been done regarding MUA. For example, how much is it used? How many traffic accidents could be attributed to inadequate DEC provisions for parking? Environmental impact (plz define) at then-current level of use?

Underage drinking/criminal behavior -- whatever-- Anything?

He said there was no interest in such quantitative measurements, and that the place would be eventually closed to camping.

I think he said it was mainly based on a few neighbors complaints. These neighbors apparently ?? included Mohonk Preserve & Shawangunk (birdwatcher/realtor) Coalition.

I note a sometimes resentful and rude attitude of DEC personnel encountered at MUA, leading me to believe they would simply prefer that their duties there be removed from list of responsiblities.

Mohonk's director, already even then on record favoring shutting MUA, I figured, wasn't even worth speaking to.

This was, I believe, five years ago.

I discussed this with GCC around the same time. Mr. Spietz told me, that under some circumstances, GCC would not oppose closing MUA to camping. I assume he meant that going against views of "stakeholders" ( his word) Mohonk Preserve would harm his relationship with that group. And God forbid GCC would oppose August body (in black tie) of AAC??


The chairman of long-known AMC's NYC climbing committee merely posed the question:

"Why should camping be free?"

A great question to which I have no answer other than to note that it's been free since climbing began at Gunks.

The actual "Stakeholders" are those who use MUA. Their numbers are unknown and they have never been queried regarding whether they want to make reservations and pay a fee for a severely limited number of seasonally available sleeping sites.


Is that disabled fellow still on the night desk of Motel 87? He seems like a very nice and interesting person..... More sympathetic than those I've dealt with on this question.

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#65319 - 06/07/12 02:42 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Just to clarify (it's been a long time since I was a rep for the GCC), I looked up my response about the GCC's position on the MUA to sandia and others, when it appears sandia went by raelian, 5.29.07

"Forgive me the belated response, but I was away last week and became aware of the post on Saturday. Allow me to clarify the GCC's position on the MUA.

We are not advocating/lobbying for closure of the MUA. As many of you know, we put considerable effort advocating against the initial closure of campsites, done maintenance and clean-ups there, printed flyers and posted on our website reminders for folks to use the MUA responsibly, to mitigate the kinds of usage that have made it a chronic target of public complaints. Earlier this year, we offered to pay for the port-a-johns, when a question existed of whether any would be sited at the campground. The MUA is not perfect, not by a long-shot, but we're committed to supporting both the site and its thoughtful, committed managers like RangerRob.

I was invited last year to attend the planning meeting between the American Alpine Club, PIPC, and the Mohonk Preserve on the AAC's campground proposal at the AMC site. It appeared to me that the proposal for a campground of walk-in, group, and cabin sites built around a central cooking/social pavilion with showers, bathrooms, trash facilities, and off-the-street-parking monitored by a caretaker 24/7 - a Gunks' version of the Teton's climbing ranch - would be a welcome upgrade to the MUA. And, it would go a long way towards alleviating many of the problems - noise, traffic hazards, trash, human waste, use of undesignated sites - that continue to make the MUA a crux of both campers and the localsÂ’ ire. It won't be free, but for-fee camping and better regulation may have to be the price to pay for our exponential growth and its attendant impact.

Can the Gunks' support both free and for-fee camping? We certainly can't get enough of either option. Will the MUA have to be closed to make the AAC site viable? It's a possibility, but it is not a done deal, and my understanding is that the agencies remain in discussion as the AAC proposal continues to await approval.

Should it become a choice between the two sites, primarily for the mitigation measures it would largely contain, the GCC favors the AAC proposal. The potential loss of a free, capricious resource with hallowed roots in the culture is a tough one to watch disappear, and the Gunks have been fortunate to keep our resident mongrel alive as long as we have. We've raised the topic at several GCC events, and have advocated that the principals invite the climbing community in public forums into the discussion.

Until the day arrives that such a choice becomes necessary - and it remains quite unclear if or when that may be - the GCC will continue to support responsible use of the MUA.

I encourage anyone with a stake in the matter to contact me directly, ctspatz@earthlink.net, as well as the principals:
Jeff Weigert, Region 3 DEC office, 845.256.3000, or Ethan Pierce, 845.256.3074
getinfo@americanalpineclub.org
And you can always talk to Hank Alicandri at the Mohonk Preserve.

I will be attending the planning meeting cited above tomorrow evening in Ellenville.

Christopher Spatz
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#65320 - 06/07/12 02:44 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: yorick]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
And this response regarding "stakeholders," when sandia appears to have gone by pizzaman, from 5.28.09


Originally Posted By: pizzaman
"Too bad the U.S. didn't have more civilized, English-type access laws, so we could avoid the squawking from lord-of-the manor types.

GCC may have its head up the a** of local land managers, who have their heads up the a** of local to-the-manor-born types, bird-watching zillionaire board members, gentlemen climbers, etc., (all of whom Spatz once described to me, in zombie zoning board staff-speak, as "stakeholders") --- none of whom put a priority on the interests of the poor, dumb-a** non-resident climber scum."


Good evening, Pizzaman,

Having never recalled using the word "stakeholders" in conversation or in print, I'd would be pleased to learn otherwise. If I remember correctly, you did take exception to my use of "mitigation" regarding efforts to remind users of the MUA to follow the posted rules.

Since the GCC has a long record of supporting efforts to keep the MUA open, including offering to pay for port-a-johns, doing trail and campsite maintenance, and reminding climbers that responsible stewardship of the MUA is the best defense against the campground's closure, I'm not sure how this could be construed as bowing to monied interests or not advocating on behalf of average climbers, as I explained at the end of this thread:

http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/29447/MUA_camping#Post29447
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#65324 - 06/07/12 01:54 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: yorick]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Thanks for the clarification, Chris. It can't be said enough that I greatly appreciate all the efforts that volunteers make on behalf of the gunks climbing community. As in all volunteer organizations, it takes a committed "Champion of a cause" to see any endevour through.

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#65337 - 06/08/12 12:54 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: chip]
sandia Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 6
GCC is so cool. Champions, really. Amazing the vast support they've garnered, and amazing, their vastly effective efforts.

It must be financial. They've convinced all the millionaire climbers that they are brilliant, and hence they've gotten lots of money for operation.

I offered, as regular Wall Street Journal correspondent, my services for GCC public relations. Mr. Spetz told me they already had somebody doing that and I should go away.

It's a great community y'all got. God Bless the American Alpine Club and its stupid project.

Please ban me again.

Let me be specific: EVAN who runs this site (No idea who he is)
IS A FREAK. AN ASSHOLE. EVAN PLEASE BAN ME FOR ATTACKING YOUR REAL ESTATE ADVERTISERS AND MOHONK PRESERVE TO WHICH I realize, YOU CONTRIBUTE significant funds from your Web site's surplus.

We love you all.
Thank you and good bye.

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#65338 - 06/08/12 01:09 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Those that really really care work on their own, regardleess of what others or other groups do.


Edited by Mark Heyman (06/08/12 01:54 AM)

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#65340 - 06/08/12 01:35 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
wow!

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#65343 - 06/08/12 03:13 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Originally Posted By: sandia
I offered, as regular Wall Street Journal correspondent, my services for GCC public relations. Mr. Spetz told me they already had somebody doing that and I should go away.


From the 5.29.09 exchange,

"Regarding your paraphrase of my response to your offer, if again I remember correctly, we had several people, including myself, entrusted to the work. I thanked you for your generous offer, courteously, since even with those I disagree I rarely find the need to respond otherwise (I think Kent would agree), but had to respectfully decline the offer...I apologize if you found my exchange with you offensive. That's certainly never my intention in any such exchange, especially one in which a donated service was being offered."
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#65345 - 06/08/12 01:02 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: yorick]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Seems like a moth drawn to the flame that is gunks.com, to have returned under three different names.

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#65347 - 06/08/12 02:21 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Totally awesome messaging, brah. Nagging thought that PR may not be your thing.

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#65348 - 06/08/12 04:20 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: ianmanger]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
I thought all that rhetoric, ranting, and heavy serving of sour grapes read as very familiar, especially when applied to the same topic.

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#65352 - 06/08/12 09:33 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 142
I've gotta start reading the Wall Street Journal. Who knew it would be so........ lively and impassioned.
Okay. Right turn, Clyde.
Howza bout this: Maybe we could convince Mr. Hoaglands consigliere that it might expedite the whole situation if the Preserve could carve off a little piece of heaven from the 850 acres they recently obtained, and use that for the camground?
I still get the caretakers position, obviously.

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#65353 - 06/08/12 10:25 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Ralph]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: Ralph

Howza bout this: Maybe we could convince Mr. Hoaglands consigliere that it might expedite the whole situation if the Preserve could carve off a little piece of heaven from the 850 acres they recently obtained, and use that for the camground?


That depends...which side of the road is it on?

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#65354 - 06/08/12 11:20 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mike Rawdon]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: Ralph

Howza bout this: Maybe we could convince Mr. Hoaglands consigliere that it might expedite the whole situation if the Preserve could carve off a little piece of heaven from the 850 acres they recently obtained, and use that for the camground?


That depends...which side of the road is it on?

Does it have any "neighbors"?

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#65355 - 06/09/12 01:17 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
sandia Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 6
I love the AAC campground plan.

Free camping in Gunks, with its history extending back to the beginning, will soon be gone forever.

This is a done deal.

We must be clear: ACC and Mohonk is instrumental in this development, which GCC/Access Fund chose to support.


I made my views known to AAC, GCC DEC and Access Fund in a fairly calm and reasoned manner through personal telephone conversations.

I'm expressing myself on this board in a far more agitated manner, but obviously my underlying point of view is considered merely weird.

I suspect this is at least in part because the half-dozen regulars here don't use the MUA at all, and essentially aren't knowledgeable or even curious.

My posts here are therefore, fairly pointless.

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#65357 - 06/09/12 12:15 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Sandia,

The AMC, MP, DEC, AAC, GCCC, Access Fund, PIPC, Friends of the Shawangunks and the Town of Gardiner have all had a hand in these developments. It's really no surprise that there is confusion as to how it came about, or the way it has been recieved by various groups or individuals.

You are most likely correct about how many particpants here have used or currently us the MUA. I've lived 20 minutes from the cliffs for nearly 30 years, and even closer some years before that so have no need to campout. And, before that, NP dorms, or the back of my truck on the old Wawarsing Turnpike.

However, you've read some posts above from individuals that were indeed informed and some that have been certainly curious.

I believe that if your tone had been less "agitated", this discussion would not have degraded.

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#65359 - 06/09/12 02:19 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: sandia
I love the AAC campground plan.

Free camping in Gunks, with its history extending back to the beginning, will soon be gone forever.

This is a done deal.

We must be clear: ACC and Mohonk is instrumental in this development, which GCC/Access Fund chose to support.


I made my views known to AAC, GCC DEC and Access Fund in a fairly calm and reasoned manner through personal telephone conversations.

I'm expressing myself on this board in a far more agitated manner, but obviously my underlying point of view is considered merely weird.

I suspect this is at least in part because the half-dozen regulars here don't use the MUA at all, and essentially aren't knowledgeable or even curious.

My posts here are therefore, fairly pointless.

Yeah, pretty much. Me me me me me! You act like a pampered child who firmly believes that free camping in the Gunks is a god-given right. It isn't - it's mostly private land with a little bit of state owned (the MUA - which wasn't really used, certainly not as a campground, until the late 80's), so sack up - it's the landowners who get to decide, not you.

I'm trying to think of what other major climbing destinations in the US have free camping.....

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#65360 - 06/09/12 03:26 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 142
NY state actually owns about 25,000 acres of land attached to and adjoining the ridge. They don't want you camping there either. Paying or not.

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#65362 - 06/09/12 04:42 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Ralph]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Ralph
NY state actually owns about 25,000 acres of land attached to and adjoining the ridge. They don't want you camping there either. Paying or not.




It's no wonder they don't want you camping there. Look at how you have trashed the MUA and slime......The only solution is to hire a full time baby sitter and have a list of rules 10 pages long. Pretty pathetic as a user group IMO.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65363 - 06/09/12 04:43 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: sandia]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5978
Loc: 212 land
This is a done deal.

Not until the money is in place. I expect years of status quo.
_________________________

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#65410 - 06/11/12 01:54 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: oenophore]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I live in Delaware and have enjoyed the use of MUA many times over a 30+ year period. I do not usually stay there anymore because most of my visits are now day trips, but prefer to use it in late fall or winter when no one else is around and the days are short. Sandia, your stance was that of an entitled brat and I have no tolerance for that.

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#65413 - 06/11/12 04:22 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: chip]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
Yup, an entitled brat. And unfortunately many climbers think all too like him. Trespassers for example.

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#66952 - 11/23/12 06:16 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Kent]
berlin Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 39
Hi,

I am curious, When will the work begin on the new campground in 2013 ? begin april, mid april ? May ?


Do we have an idea of the price person or per site for that new campground ?

Thanks


Edited by berlin (11/23/12 06:45 PM)

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#66953 - 11/24/12 01:11 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: berlin]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Parallel discussion here: http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/66742/Campground_to_be_Discussed_at_#Post66742

The bidding process for construction has apparently begun.

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#67400 - 02/12/13 04:44 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
berlin Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 39
Hi,

Did the work begin for the new camping ?

I am planning to go to the Gunks end March.
I am wondering if the MUA or Camp slime will still be opened for free camping ??


Thanks


Edited by berlin (02/12/13 05:35 PM)

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#67460 - 02/22/13 09:47 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
RobA Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 46
Loc: Alta, UT
Originally Posted By: retroscree


I'm trying to think of what other major climbing destinations in the US have free camping.....


You shouldn't have to think very hard...there are quite a few, including the "other" major climbing area in NY State.


R.I.P. free camping in the gunks.

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#67535 - 02/27/13 06:28 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: RobA]
pda Offline
addict

Registered: 08/30/01
Posts: 621
Loc: Bergen County NJ
I think he meant 'legal' campgrounds.

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#67538 - 02/27/13 09:50 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: berlin]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Originally Posted By: berlin
I am planning to go to the Gunks end March.
I am wondering if the MUA or Camp slime will still be opened for free camping ??


Yes, they are still open.

I haven't heard any construction progress on the campground. Any one know the status or if start date is scheduled?

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#67542 - 02/28/13 04:40 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
you get what you pay for, especially in the gunks. the MUA, for sure, is filthier than the black hole of calcutta.

I also remember free camping at the old appie camp and when the weather was REALLY bad we used to stay in the van leuven cabin. that was the most disgusting place i've ever dossed in, there were rats scurrying over our sleeping bag, and i mean rats, rats, and more rats. they just kept coming, more and more rats. i am glad i am not anymore poor enough to stay in a place like that!
_________________________
Support Your Local Farmer!

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#67560 - 03/01/13 07:44 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
berlin Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 39
I called ACC and the are planning construction in Spring which is pretty vague, between march 20 and Junee 20

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#67592 - 03/04/13 02:05 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: berlin]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Phlan, did you ever stay at the cabin when that hideous leaning-outhouse-on-a-tank was out front? Worst dump experience I ever had - drop the stinker in there and a second later you got a cold splash on the buns. Yeeech!

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#67598 - 03/04/13 09:15 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Mike Rawdon]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
Yes, and in fact you have reminded me that I have some really heavy business to take care of right now so I gotta run. but I'll take it without the splash today.
_________________________
Support Your Local Farmer!

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#67599 - 03/04/13 10:58 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: phlan]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Booty backsplash has got to be on the Top Ten list of Unpleasant Experiences. YEEKS!

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#67603 - 03/05/13 04:43 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 710
Loc: NYC
You guys sure are living the dream...
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#67611 - 03/05/13 03:36 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: SethG]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
What...you've never used an outhouse that was unpleasant?

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#67613 - 03/05/13 04:13 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
freaking medicare!

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#67655 - 03/20/13 03:14 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
berlin Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 39
Where exactly will the new campground located ?


Thanks

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#67702 - 03/29/13 06:00 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: berlin]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Between the MUA and the Brauhaus on the south side of the road.

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#67703 - 03/29/13 06:34 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: berlin]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 142
When you see 1000' worth of trees gone along the south side of the road you'll know where it is. (They'll need to establish a line of sight for the driveway) Not to mention whatever chopping is done to clear an area for a pavilion,51 campsites, a parking lot, and my quarters.


Edited by Ralph (03/29/13 06:38 PM)

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#67707 - 03/30/13 09:32 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Ralph]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Ralph- Have you already talked with them regarding the manager gig?

I have been watching and waiting for the job post in hopes I might apply and be considered. But maybe if someone with your qualifications is interested or already a shoe in, I can forget that idea.

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#67721 - 04/01/13 09:02 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 142
Madame,

I defer to your experience and enthusiasm.
Remain aware that the campground will be administered by the AAC. Job posting is just a formality. Have your people talk to their people.

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#68355 - 06/20/13 03:07 AM Re: New campground planned [Re: Ralph]
berlin Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 39
Hi,

What is the status of the new campground ?
Did they begin the work ?

MUA and Camp Slime still open ?

Thanks

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#68678 - 08/30/13 10:50 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: berlin]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
This evening I noticed chain link fence along the road where the campground will be - Looks like they are getting ready to start doing work!

If I hear any more details, will post.

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#69085 - 10/21/13 12:51 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
keith Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 70
Loc: The beach
Rumor has it that its going to be twenty dollars a night per person. Anyone know if this is a fact?

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#69090 - 10/21/13 11:04 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: keith]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
i have read the same on www.climberism.com

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#69137 - 10/23/13 04:37 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
I think that AAC members get a discounted rate - was it 50%?
Certainly worth joining for those who will frequently camp there, and there are other benefits from joining.

While for sure there are some for whom $20 a night is prohibitive, a quick look at the vehicles in the Trapps parking lot or backpacks laid out at cliff base on any weekend makes me a little hard-pressed to feel even the full price is going to cause much financial hardship for the majority.

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#69139 - 10/23/13 09:36 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
I believe d.e.c. campgrounds were 22 dollars a site this past season and accommodate 6 people. the same site at pryor the 3rd with 6 people is 120 a night.

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#69141 - 10/23/13 11:00 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: crimpy]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Depends on whether the AAC campground will charge per person or per campsite. Anyone have an idea which wil apply? What's the fee policy at the other AAC facilities? Most campsites I've used nationwide are per site to a set camper limit.

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#69144 - 10/24/13 04:23 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
The AAC in the Tetons charges $16 / $25 (member/non-member) per person per night for dormitory style lodging.
http://americanalpineclub.org/p/grand_teton_climbers_ranch#accommodations

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#69148 - 10/25/13 07:52 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: retroscree]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
The AAC facilities at Hueco Rock Ranch, and the new campground at the Red River Gorge have a fairly reasonable per night, per person fee structure. HRR- AAC members-$7, Access Fund members-$8. non-members-$10.
The new New River Gorge Campground- AAC=$5, AF=$6 and non-members= $7.

Possibly the new AAC/MP/DEC/PIPC campground may not be more expensive. However, it seems likely everyone will want a piece of the pie. Would be nice if I am way wrong and the new campground continues the tradition of inexpensive camping accommodations.

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#69149 - 10/25/13 09:46 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 142
Looky here AAC Love Even Peter Metcalf is thrilled for a Gunks campground. Suppose we'll be seeing him 'round the community fire pit?

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#71247 - 03/26/14 01:04 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: TerrieM]
berlin Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 39
Hi Gunks.com !

After a year, how is the progress for the new campground ?
Can we camp there ?
What is the status of the MUA and Camp Slime, Can we still camp at those 2 places ?


Thanks

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#71248 - 03/26/14 04:49 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
TerrieM Online   content
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
It's easy to see the entry. Cyclone gate up during construction, massive piles of dirt from excavation, and my...err, I mean the manager's house, under construction and visible from the road.

But seriously, I am keeping my eyes open for the job listing. If I am qualified, I will try for it.

I heard they are now thinking September opening. There is still quite a bit of work that needs to be done.

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#71249 - 03/26/14 05:26 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: Rickster]
berlin Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 39
Hi ,

Do you have any status about the campground ?
When will it be opened ?

THnaks

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#71252 - 03/29/14 01:53 PM Re: New campground planned [Re: berlin]
berlin Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 39
Hi Therrie,
I just understand what you mean in the PM when you said you can see my post only in flat mode (ALL post mode)
Sorry for my last post #71249, I posted it because I cannot my previous post #71247 !!


Happy Spring Climbing

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