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#61557 - 11/22/11 06:19 PM you're doing it all wrong!
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
I had this discussion come up with someone i climbed with awhile ago. Climber was leading and got to a point where they couldn't figure out the move. So they moved left to check it out then ended up putting a piece of marginal gear in. After a few minutes climber said i can't do it you have to lower me.

i was terrified to lower the climber and suggested to try down climbing and test your gear first before weighting it. But i was yelling this not just telling. The climber didn't bother to test the piece and just let go. The gear held and I lowered them down. When the climber got down I reamed them out for doing something i thought could have turned out badly. Thankfully nothing bad happened.

Now the climber thinks I'm an a**hole for reaming them out. I just said hey i was hoping to get through your head that what you were doing was not safe but all they could think about it is how i yelled at them. At what point is yelling at your partner excessive? I would think when someone's life is in your hands there is no excessive yelling? Is it OK to be unpopular at times to yell at your partner at times when things have a potential bad outcome? For me I'm ok w/ being unpopular as long as my partner is safe.
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#61559 - 11/22/11 06:34 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: talus]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
Climbing is a partnership, which sadly an attitude seemingly being lost today. My attitude is I'm as responsible for my climbing partner as I am for myself. If I see something that will cause them harm, I'll point it out. Now not being on the sharp end, its their responsibility to take your advise as they see fit.

Usually I wouldn't yell at them (not my style) but I usually say something once in a tone to be heard, but then I give them time to deal with the situation at hand, since they are there in the moment and not I.



Edited by Chas (11/22/11 08:19 PM)

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#61560 - 11/22/11 06:43 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: Chas]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I get your reaction, John, but most people will learn more and be open to suggestion when they are not under emotional distress. I would keep yelling to use only when they are too far away to talk normally. That isn't to say you are wrong in your concern and especially that the partner did not listen to very valid input before weighting a poor piece in a bad spot to do so, but they already showed you that they don't respond well to yelling when they did so. Tough situation.

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#61562 - 11/22/11 07:09 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: chip]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
So they took a short fall onto the piece? or they were at the piece and basically just hung off it? taking a short fall onto a crap piece depending on how far up the route the were could be pretty high FF right? i'd say that would be a good thing to point out.
if they could just sit and hang right there then i don't know what else he could have done if they had no juice to downclimb to a stance or something. they should have a better idea of how good/bad the piece was than you on the ground?

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#61563 - 11/22/11 08:08 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: jakedatc]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
Obviously you want to get the message across without alienating your audience.

But when I look back at the way I've dealt with those kind of safety situations, it's the times I didn't speak up that have haunted me-- I thank goodness nothing bad happened, but resolve to be quicker to say how I feel.

So if you have to err, I think being too vocal about safety is the better side to err on.
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#61564 - 11/22/11 08:16 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: jakedatc]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
The piece was hung on not fallen on. i went up and finished the climb and believe me it was a marginal gear placement. I don't think it would have held my weight. it wasn't so much yelling it more scolding the climber. along the lines of "WTF are you thinking the gear could have popped and you could had a ground fall"

Climber didn't even try to down climb and had plenty of juice to try. The climber didn't want to commit to the move because they didn't like the gear placement.
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#61565 - 11/22/11 08:42 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: talus]
KathyS Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 196
Loc: NY, USA
Constructive criticism is usually better received when delivered firmly, but gently. "WTF" tends to make anyone put up their emotional defenses, some more than others. Sometimes keeping calm is hard to do when you are really afraid for someone though.

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#61566 - 11/22/11 08:51 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: talus]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Ah. Then some scolding was in order. Even my hangdogging sport brain kicks into trad mode when gear is involved and if i'm going to hang then i'm going for solid or multiple pieces.

Sounds like they need a "nope, not until you can lead more safely" if they ask to go climb with you. Or just no invitations.

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#61567 - 11/22/11 09:03 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: jakedatc]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5967
Loc: 212 land
Yeah, one doesn't like to be told to mind one's own *&*^&%$@# business, yet you would feel bad if something disastrous happened to the errant party after you've held your tongue when you could have said something that might have prevented the event.
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#61568 - 11/22/11 09:12 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: oenophore]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Well this was his leader while he was belaying. If it had been another party then that changes things a bit.

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