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#61589 - 11/23/11 06:59 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: OldEric]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
The other side does not matter or does the amount of gear. What matters is: how should the 2nd handle a situation when the leader is putting themselves in a hazardous situation.

I think RG and Choochoo nailed it.
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#61597 - 11/24/11 01:28 AM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: talus]
The Lisa Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
All I know is that next time I am leading and feeling sketched I am calling RG's voice of reason helpline smile
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#61599 - 11/24/11 02:47 AM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: The Lisa]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: The Lisa
All I know is that next time I am leading and feeling sketched I am calling RG's voice of reason helpline smile


I take Visa cards or PayPal. But I recommend the the Voice of Reason Premium Account, which, for a modest monthly fee deducted without warning from your bank account, provides instant access.

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#61602 - 11/24/11 12:34 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: rg@ofmc]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Understand that under your user agreement with your yearly VORPA, if you call, and sketch out, fall or otherwise blow it anyway. Your, monthly rates will increase exponentially.

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#61604 - 11/24/11 02:59 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: Rickster]
The Lisa Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Da Bronx
I will wear a Bluetooth headset to ensure handsfree communication, of course. Hanging out one handed and dialing with the other might make the call even more desperate.
Srsly, keep the chewing out until all are safely back on the ground. I usually take my belayer's advice when leading since he has often lead it already and the beta is welcome if I am feeling nervous. However, there are times when thoughts like 'Easy for you to say down there, I am up here on the sharp end' go through my head.
John, I am glad you both made it off the climb safely in the end.
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#61609 - 11/25/11 10:06 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: The Lisa]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
Just curious if this was someone that you have climbed with before or someone that you did not know and were climbing with for the first time. If it was a new partner then it should just be more evidence that you need to pick your partners carefully, especially when leading is involved. I have climbed with new people that I did not know well but have always started on something very easy for a "feeling out" process. Once comfortable we moved onto something a bit more challenging. That said I almost always climb with people that I know well or at the very least someone who is recommended by some that I implicitly trust.

If this was someone that you knew well then I imagine there was probably a better way of getting your point across then by yelling. Often when yelled at people will just block out what you are trying to say regardless of how correct or constructive the information that you are conveying is. As others have stated yelling is not the best way of staying calm in a situation that could easily turn dangerous in a hurry. You can certainly be forceful and assertive without berating someone.

It does certainly sound as if your read the situation correctly and lowering off on one sketchy piece of gear without even trying to back it up is poor judgement on the leaders part. Not even trying to down climb also speaks volumes of this leaders judgment and skills.

I say be happy that you got through it without serious incident and never climb with them again.

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#61653 - 11/28/11 05:45 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: talus]
OldEric Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/20/02
Posts: 48
What has been said so gar concerning the quality of the gear and the dangerousness of the situation has all been from your POV. Maybe it is 100% objectively accurate. Maybe not. The piece held. Maybe your partner agrees with your version 100%. Maybe not. The point is that everyone is responding to your version of the events without any verification. I am always a little suspicious when people take their little spats on line, tell their side of it and then wallow in the responses.

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#61658 - 11/28/11 09:08 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: OldEric]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
well, as John pointed out, the question really was 'how should the belayer respond?' to a potentially dangerous situation, so to follow your point, the issue is one of why the belayer and leader seem to have perceived the situation differently.

I would contend that we've pretty much ALL done things we're not proud about after the fact. And got away with them. Last week I led Insuhlation with the intent of climbing calmly through the crux, placing gear and not running it out above that keyhole as I've done before. Instead I got to the intermediate edge, started to gas, went into "Oh no I'm doing a SethG (sorry bro:-)" and jiggered in a very shitty piece. Yeah I knew the jugs were above but sometimes you just don't got it. Hung on a couple of lobes and then fired in another piece immediately. But I totally dodged that nasty ride. It was really dumb and I regretted it. I was almost exactly on the other end of John's situation, except that I had the presence of mind to fire in a backup and finished the lead.


In Deep Survival, Gonzales contends that often we confuse 'getting way with it' with experience. Not sure how much I buy that argument, but there seem to be a lot of people being rather 'holier than thou' about this.

Dodging something bad is central to climbing. Thats why the ropes are there. I think the calm discussion afterwards once you've both gotten away with it and everyone is safe is the ticket. Everyone is teachable. I appreciate people pointing out possible imperfections in my gear or other improvements. They will save my life one day.

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#61660 - 11/28/11 09:33 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: ianmanger]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
"Everyone is teachable. I appreciate people pointing out possible imperfections in my gear or other improvements. They will save my life one day."

This has made me a bunch better over the last few years of getting into trad more seriously. It's one thing to put in a piece and think it is ok. It is another to have it critiqued afterward and either confirming that it was solid or letting you know what could be better. sometimes things will look good and then you climb above them and they walk or jiggle out and become crap. I always appreciate gear feed back.

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#61661 - 11/28/11 09:46 PM Re: you're doing it all wrong! [Re: jakedatc]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
That's really funny, I'm glad you didn't pull a SethG!!
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It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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