Shout Box

Who's Online
0 registered (), 10 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 10 of 15 < 1 2 ... 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 >
Topic Options
#41794 - 11/18/08 01:52 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: oenophore]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
thanks Oeno for the reminder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yuc4BI5NWU&feature=related

THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND
words and music by Woody Guthrie

Chorus:
This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me

As I was walking a ribbon of highway
I saw above me an endless skyway
I saw below me a golden valley
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

The sun comes shining as I was strolling
The wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling
The fog was lifting a voice come chanting
This land was made for you and me

Chorus

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!

Chorus

In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the steeple
Near the relief office - I see my people
And some are grumblin' and some are wonderin'
If this land's still made for you and me.
_________________________
John Okner Photography

Top
#41796 - 11/18/08 02:38 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: talus]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
"I would hate to hear some distant neighbor of mine lost their house or land from a lawsuit."

NYS has enacted law to protect landowners from lawsuit related to recreational injury or death, as long as they have not modified their property to encourage such activities. You should not have any worries unless you deside that a Via Ferrata would be a cool way to pick up extra cash.

Top
#41797 - 11/18/08 03:10 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: chip]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: chip
NYS has enacted law to protect landowners from lawsuit related to recreational injury or death, as long as they have not modified their property to encourage such activities.


Is that a recent development? I though I read in the past few years (though I couldn't find it online) a New York Times article on how New York law (at least back then) specifically excluded swimming and climbing from allowed activities, which had led some NY property owners to close swimming areas to which they had previously allowed access.

And if the law included climbing and absolved property owners from liability, then would the Mohonk Mountain House be citing insurance issues as a reason for closing Skytop to the pubic?

Top
#41798 - 11/18/08 03:35 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Daniel]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I have not personally read the law but have been told that climbing was included by a climber friend who runs one of the largest parks and recreation departments in the state.

Top
#41799 - 11/18/08 03:40 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: chip]
Dillbag Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: "The Town"
 Quote:
And if the law included climbing and absolved property owners from liability, then would the Mohonk Mountain House be citing insurance issues as a reason for closing Skytop to the pubic?


That argument went out the window as soon as they started allowing guided parties scheduled through the MMH...
_________________________
...anethum graveolens cucumis sativus!

Top
#41800 - 11/18/08 03:46 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: chip]
mummert Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/16/99
Posts: 97
Loc: Danbury, CT, USA
 Quote:
NYS has enacted law to protect landowners from lawsuit related to recreational injury or death, as long as they have not modified their property to encourage such activities. You should not have any worries unless you deside that a Via Ferrata would be a cool way to pick up extra cash.


Recreational access laws increase the likelihood that a liability lawsuit will fail in court. However, they don't prevent suits from being filed, nor the expense of having to defend against them.

Top
#41801 - 11/18/08 05:09 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: mummert]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
 Originally Posted By: mummert
 Quote:
NYS has enacted law to protect landowners from lawsuit related to recreational injury or death, as long as they have not modified their property to encourage such activities. You should not have any worries unless you deside that a Via Ferrata would be a cool way to pick up extra cash.


Recreational access laws increase the likelihood that a liability lawsuit will fail in court. However, they don't prevent suits from being filed, nor the expense of having to defend against them.


Todd makes the key point, which is that winning a lawsuit is no substitute for not facing one in the first instance. But there's worse news beyond that: the law in question (N.Y. General Obligations Law section 9-103, for those who care) almost certainly would not apply anyway, leaving the owner without such a defense.

1) First, it only applies to specifically listed activities, and climbing is not one of them; 2) Second, with respect to the Preserve, Mohonk, etc., it does not apply if a fee has been charged for access. The latter would not apply to private homeowners, of course, but the first reason almost certainly would.

For those who really, really care, the list of activities is "hunting, fishing, organized gleaning ... canoeing, boating, trapping, hiking, cross-country skiing, and tobogganing, sledding, speleological activities, horseback riding, bicycle riding, hang gliding, motorized vehicle operation for recreational purposes, snowmobile operation, cutting or gathering of wood for non-commercial purposes or training of dogs."

Organized gleaning, anyone?

Top
#41802 - 11/18/08 05:21 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: retr2327]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2677
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Sounds to me like the exclusion of climbing is an obvious, deliberate act on the part of the legislators, but hopefully I'm wrong. I would suggest that a campaign to ammend this would be in the best interests of land owners and climbers alike and that those of you in NYS should do some writing.

Top
#41803 - 11/18/08 05:27 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Dillbag]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
 Quote:
And if the law included climbing and absolved property owners from liability, then would the Mohonk Mountain House be citing insurance issues as a reason for closing Skytop to the pubic?


That argument went out the window as soon as they started allowing guided parties scheduled through the MMH...


I asked a guide about this, and MMH's insurance argument is still valid (whether or not it's the actual reason). When climbing with a guide, the client is on the guide company's insurance policy, so the MMH insurer is off the hook.

Top
#41804 - 11/18/08 05:34 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: retr2327]
Timbo Offline
addict

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 696
Loc: Delaware
 Originally Posted By: retr2327

For those who really, really care, the list of activities is "hunting, fishing, organized gleaning ... canoeing, boating, trapping, hiking, cross-country skiing, and tobogganing, sledding, speleological activities, horseback riding, bicycle riding, hang gliding, motorized vehicle operation for recreational purposes, snowmobile operation, cutting or gathering of wood for non-commercial purposes or training of dogs."

Organized gleaning, anyone?


Here's a link for gleaning.

http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/6280/1/Gleaning-Organized-Activity.html

Seems it has to do with reusing food products and I think it is more to protect against suits from food related illnesses than any recreation. Many companies routinely throw away food products that could be used in homeless shelters for fear of lawsuits. Odd it was included in this legislation.

Also odd that the activities inlcude caving, but exclude climbing. That's most likely due to a fairly active and organized caving community headed by the National Speleological Society and it's local NY chapters. Looks like the Access fund and climbers missed the boat on this one.

TS
_________________________

Top
Page 10 of 15 < 1 2 ... 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 >


Moderator:  webmaster 
Sponsored