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#41726 - 11/14/08 09:24 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Kent
There seem to be two camps here.

Camp One
Respect for property rights, period. Then you might have access. This is the position of landowners, seemingly The Access Fund, and many climbers.

Camp Two
No access then no respect. This is my interpretation of the position of many climbers, including Chris M.


You have explicity disallowed the possibility of Camp One for anyone. I've asked you again and again, what specifically you want from climbers - independently of Chris - and you have only said the very vague "respect". Yet you give us no path or possibility to join Camp One, and insist that we are Camp Two. Our hands are tied, by you, are they not?

I am beginning to think you just want to flagellate Chris.

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#41735 - 11/14/08 10:15 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Julie]
pedestrian Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 2244
Loc: a heavily fortified bunker!
A spanking, a spanking!

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#41742 - 11/14/08 11:27 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
Tai Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 290
Loc: Middle of nowhere: South Salem...
 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
A spanking, a spanking!


And then, the oral secks...

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#41743 - 11/14/08 11:29 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: pedestrian]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
Kent...as someone who would never, ever (knowingly) trespass on private property to access a climbing area, please let me respectfully ask you this;

As you have previously stated "access denied" under any circumstances, why do you continue to banter and argue with posters on gunksdotcom obviously knowing you are going to receive a plethora of heated replies?

Your mind has obviously been made up, so why not let the issue(s) die and not post anymore?

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#41763 - 11/16/08 11:17 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Julie]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
From Julie:

 Quote:
You have explicity disallowed the possibility of Camp One for anyone.

Being in Camp One is like being a Vulgarian. If you think you are a Vulgarian, you are. If you think you are in Camp One, then you are. Go ask Alice (there is no need, however, to wait until she is ten feet tall).

That you are in Camp One does not however mean you will have access.

 Quote:
I am beginning to think you just want to flagellate Chris.

I'm not trying to flagellate Chris, but if he is going to be the Chairman of the only organization formally representing recreationists on the ridge, it's reasonable to hold him accountable for his words.



Edited by Kent (11/16/08 11:43 PM)
Edit Reason: Jefferson Starship

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#41764 - 11/16/08 11:25 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: AOR]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
From AOR:
 Quote:
Your mind has obviously been made up, so why not let the issue(s) die and not post anymore?

A great injustice has been done to ridge landowners like the Wustraus, Charlie Bales, Pauline Alexander, Charlie & Mary Beth Majestic, and others. Anything I can do to draw attention to that injustice I will do.

And as someone who has stated that you would never, ever (knowingly) trespass on private property, you are welcome on my land anytime. There isn't a lot of climbing on my land, but you are welcome to it. If you decide to take me up on it, please be in touch with me beforehand. Thanks.

It was very brisk on top of the ridge today.

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#41786 - 11/18/08 03:16 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: Kent]
acdnyc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 208
Loc: NYC/Kerhonkson

Man, you miss a lot when your screen on your old laptop dies.

Back to the original topic, I'm with Eddie on this one and his reaction. It's the "bad apple" who spoils it for everyone else and I've seen and read about it too many times. I've lost good fishing holes over the years because of trash being left behind, climbing areas because people refuse to obey posted signs(Skytop), etc. I just think people who act at that level, to a degree, are sociopaths. Just a mild form but definitely in that brain dysfunction. I think reading the posts of some responses was a good experiment in establishing a new level of dysfunction. To not sympathize with Eddie is a good indication that the poster has an inability to remove ones self from there own person and look at the issue from an open mind.

I have found that climbing has a group of people that tend to lean towards a very self centered viewpoint that what they want is what matters and everyone else is wrong or inferior for thinking different.

As a really recent landowner in the Gunks area I am having my own problems with trespassers, these are carrying guns. I have to wear bright cloths and I don't let my dog stray to far from our house for fear of her being shot. Luckily, I have neighbors who keep an eye on it and let me know if anyone has been seen on my land. I even made contact once but they backed down our driveway after I waved to them. I found out who it was and it was a local hunter/carpenter.

To bad we live in a world with little or not respect for others. I hope that anyone who reads these posts will think the next time before they take an action that may be wrong. I hike all the hills and ridges in the area and I'm on my way to hiking every foot of trail on the ridge, some unmarked deer trails, those are the best, and I'm amazed at all the climbable areas. Every time I see a crag I wish we could climb it but I know we won't because they are closed. By what has happened in recent weeks means that they will most likely stay closed for the near future.

So, Eddie, good luck in keeping people off your land and I hope that all your neighbors follow your example and close their caves off. I would hate to hear some distant neighbor of mine lost their house or land from a lawsuit. Maybe we will have a beer together again sometime, until then, good luck.
_________________________
jugs or mugs

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#41788 - 11/18/08 06:45 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: acdnyc]
calamity Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 18
It's a TERRIBLE shame that citizens in the United States don't have access laws like those of Britain, and Scotland, which normally serve as the model for U.S. concepts of law.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2003/asp_20030002_en_2#pt1-ch1-l1g1

Maybe it has to do with slavery.

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#41791 - 11/18/08 11:12 AM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: calamity]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5968
Loc: 212 land
 Originally Posted By: calamity
It's a TERRIBLE shame that citizens in the United States don't have access laws like those of Britain, and Scotland, which normally serve as the model for U.S. concepts of law.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2003/asp_20030002_en_2#pt1-ch1-l1g1

Maybe it has to do with slavery.
Hah! American property owners are happy that such UK laws don't apply here. Your wish reminds one of the song lyric:

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!
_________________________

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#41793 - 11/18/08 01:41 PM Re: Rosendale Cave CLOSED TO CLIMBING [Re: calamity]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
 Quote:
It's a TERRIBLE shame that citizens in the United States don't have access laws like those of Britain, and Scotland, which normally serve as the model for U.S. concepts of law.

Clam,

For a long time ridge landowners did in fact allow pretty much unfettered access to their land. It was live and let live on the ridge. It was only when it became live and let the landowners die that access became more restricted.

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