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#62206 - 01/09/12 01:15 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
I am beginning to see very little difference between top-roping and leading. This does not have to be true for every person, but it has to be true in every climb, as to what is physically required. But if it is true with one person, that it makes no difference to lead or to follow, then the whole idea goes out the window, that leading is necessary to really "do the climb".

This would mean that all these bolts, all this time have only represented nonsense and confusion. Just because leading scares some people, it does not make a climb harder if it does not make the climb harder for the best climbers. Making a climb harder for the weakest climbers, who would notice the difference does not mean anything.


Edited by donald perry (01/09/12 01:27 AM)
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#62209 - 01/09/12 03:05 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Donald, I think you may be overthinking this a little. You're not factoring the psychological aspect of leading versus toproping into the equation. For a select few climbers, this equation is trivial. For most of us however, the psychological aspect is pretty big, and will remain so. There ARE such things as consequences when leading. A route toproped is done with zero consequences.

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#62231 - 01/09/12 10:26 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I am beginning to see very little difference between top-roping and leading. This does not have to be true for every person, but it has to be true in every climb, as to what is physically required. But if it is true with one person, that it makes no difference to lead or to follow, then the whole idea goes out the window, that leading is necessary to really "do the climb".

This would mean that all these bolts, all this time have only represented nonsense and confusion. Just because leading scares some people, it does not make a climb harder if it does not make the climb harder for the best climbers. Making a climb harder for the weakest climbers, who would notice the difference does not mean anything.


By extension then, any climb that a climber can follow (without falling or weighting the rope) can be free solo'ed by that climber.

Gee, all this time spent learning gear...such a waste.

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#62241 - 01/10/12 05:31 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: donald perry

Once you are experienced enough, you can consistently lead whatever you can top-rope.


Then you aren't trying hard enough. Unless you are onsighting .15a then you have more to go.

also, many cliffs do not have perfect top rope access like at the Gunks. Many are too overhanging to safely top rope also (at least without having bolted directionals)

Not every cliff or type of rock can be done with trad gear. Bolted sport routes allow us to climb those places.

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#62270 - 01/14/12 03:43 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
... You're not factoring the psychological aspect of leading versus toproping into the equation. For a select few climbers, this equation is trivial....


Yes, well, my point has to do with when it is ["trivial"] meaningless.
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62271 - 01/14/12 03:56 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: RangerRob]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
You're not factoring the psychological aspect of leading versus toproping into the equation. ....


I think that this psychological aspect, when it is A3, eventually dissipates. So, I think it is safe to eliminate the "psychological aspect" when I make my argument.

When I am talking about leading, I do not see the on-sight factor as part of anything that has to do with climbing. I do not believe it is possible to lead rightly without tinkering excessively with gear. In my mind if you are set on on-sighting routes you are not really concerned with making sure you are leading rather than soloing.

Furthermore, if you are going to down-climb, to preserve your on-sight, then I think you are going to drive your seconds insane and waste a lot of time... it is pointless.

I think if however, if you happen to on-sight, that is fine, but it should only rightly be based on chance after you have made sure about all the gear, rather then to climb with a purpose to on-sight.


Edited by donald perry (01/14/12 04:10 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62272 - 01/14/12 05:21 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
I think Donald and Bradley White from Rumney should meet up and talk about their weird ass theories on climbing.

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#62277 - 01/14/12 06:41 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Originally Posted By: donald perry

Once you are experienced enough, you can consistently lead whatever you can top-rope.


[From jakedatc] Then you aren't trying hard enough. Unless you are onsighting .15a then you have more to go.


[From Don] I think that is pretty good, leading whatever you can toprope. No? How can you "try harder" and do better than that?

[From jakedatc] also, many cliffs do not have perfect top rope access like at the Gunks. Many are too overhanging to safely top rope also (at least without having bolted directionals) Not every cliff or type of rock can be done with trad gear. Bolted sport routes allow us to climb those places. [/quote]

[From Don] I know, I already said "I am not talking about climbs like Apollo Reed … I am talking about …Vertical climbs…"
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62480 - 02/09/12 05:22 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Concerning bolts and the chopping of the compressor route I would like to quote Reinhold Messner to give some idea of what he says climbing is about. [Although I know I am taking him out of context somewhat] My point is that in the future I think we will see that, just like with snow, bolts will likewise blow away as well. And I would say, for the most part, the sooner the better. I think we really need to get as far away from this gym bolt mentality as possible. I really see no need for it. But, at the same time I think chopping bolts wrong, that is until they have reached near the reasonable end of their life expectancy. Then you can unscrew them hopefully.

Reinhold Messner: A Climb is only there for me. If I climb up a wall there is a line. Before during and afterwards. And this line is really done. But afterwards you see nothing on the wall. I see in my inner eye, my line. ... but we leave nothing. We leave really nothing because they do not see a line ... And I think the biggest possibility of this world is to create the nothing. …. So the next generations they come and they have the wall still empty and they can fill it up, but they again leave nothing forever … forced to come in and be creative with all their abilities, and so they have a strong sense of living. If you are there and the whole wall is prepared, it is much more important to have nothing and create something. But if we create something ?there? then the next generations can do nothing because everything is already done. …. I think we recreate the world in each generation again, the wind is blowing away my foot prints, we never know where this way is bring us.

From


Messner Starring Reinhold Messner, Sir Christian Bonington, Ed Viesturs, et al.
(5)

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_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62481 - 02/09/12 10:34 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5967
Loc: 212 land
Rather poetic prose from Mr. Messner. So the proper ethic is, "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but chalk."
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