So if you don't bolt anything than thousands of routes will go undone. yep that's a great idea. :eye roll:

there should also be no roads, no trails, no buildings, no vehicles.

we should all walk around living in grass huts that will disintegrate eventually when not kept up.

Perhaps a good compromise between the extremes is, going forward, drill holes but don't bolt. A worldwide standard diameter is to be established, say one centimeter. Such holes would be drilled slightly upward to preclude clogging by debris and filling with water. Wired springloaded cam devices would be inserted into these holes for protection and removed by a follower. True, the cliff is defaced, but not nearly to the extent as would a highly visible bolt.

I've never used a removable bolt or even seen one, but I have heard of routes that require you bring them along. Anyone know how reliable they are?

I've heard they're reliable and do in fact work, but are frequently damaged, sometimes to the point of being unremovable, after holding a fall. I have not used them.

I didn't hint at a removable bolt but rather a hole into which a device like a Friend, Camalot, Alien, etc. may be inserted.

I am not talking about eliminating them I am talking about reducing them.

A lot of things should be top roped. For example bolts are nonessential on 98% of the routes in the New River George.

The nice thing about these anchors is that there are no surprises. It's your equipment.

That picture illustrates what I've posted.
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I am not talking about eliminating them I am talking about reducing them.

The same could be said apropos jakedatc's rant above.
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The nice thing about these anchors is that there are no surprises. It's your equipment.

Ask how many of us have been surprised by our own equipment.

"Ask how many of us have been surprised by our own equipment."

I feel less comfortable falling on someone else's bolts.

The folks who frequent this site are generally committed trad climbers. Why trad? We could be like so many who climb only in gyms because we like the movement, friendship and atmosphere. We could stick to sport climbing and therefore also get to enjoy the outside experience.
I suspect there are many factors, but for me it is a combination of the enjoyment of figuring out my moves and gear, taking control of my own experience, getting to see and experience places most might only suspect exist, and most of all, the realization of the need for adventure in my life.
I think this is the heart of what Messner wrote of and why top roping can be very fun but not as fulfilling for me. Perhaps highball bouldering and soloists are taking that to it's logical conclusion and I am not at that level of committment. Make no mistake, I will always come home relatively intact from climbing because I care more for my family than the urge to hang it out there, but I enjoy some uncertainty to the outcome. I will clip any bolt already placed but do not seek out a climb for that purpose. Climbing is more than a fun workout for me and that is why I choose to enjoy trad. I so appreciate the gunks for that reason, even though it is becoming more an outdoor trad climbing gym each year. Walking up to an unknown line, without pre-placed pro, and going for it without any beta remains the most fun day I can imagine, and thankfully that can still be done in an area I have frequented for more than 30 years. Not bad.

Chances are the bolt is safe, nevertheless I feel uncomfortable falling on someone else's bolts and even more uncomfortable falling on the community equipment.

Nowadays, bolts are for babies, and I will disrespect you for that. You can put one bolt at the top of the route, but all the rest demonstrate the childish misconception that you are doing something more committing when you are not. If you want to go on rides, go to an amusement park,stop drilling holes all over the cliff.

For example, here is a beautiful assent by Jonathan Siegrist sending a new line at Red River Gorge, naming it "24 Karats".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk-GWdG0Z...ture=plpp_video

But there is an illusion here my brothers. The fact of the matter is:

1.) He started on top rope with a heavy drill, and that part is left out of the video because it is ugly.

2.) He is not going to get hurt now any worse now than if he left it a top rope from the beginning.

3.) He appears to be doing something harder, when in fact Jonathan is off route. In reality were no bolts on "14 Karats": That is why when anyone topropes a climb like this it will be done better style.