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#62183 - 01/07/12 03:55 AM New Routes And Climbing Ethics
donald perry Offline
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changed spelling and added a paragraph


Edited by donald perry (01/07/12 04:00 AM)
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#62184 - 01/07/12 03:59 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Has the progress of climbing been unnecessarily slowed down? If a new route is freed on top-rope is it a new route gone free?

In other words is there any reason to dispute that whatever you can free on second you could have led?

Putting in a piece of protection or placing my hand in a crack is the same to me. So why can't I say that whatever ascent I make on top rope is the same as any ascent I make on lead?

One might ask, if there is no difference why don't you lead it? Leading takes more time, if there is no cracks then bolts get placed, and is leading often only about the ego than rather than about the climbing? I think this has often been the case with bolts in places where one can toprope.

I suppose if it has to do with A4 falls, then there are more questions involved. But if it really has to do with sparse protection perhaps it's not leading anyway. If there really is ultimately no real protection then it's soloing.


Edited by donald perry (01/07/12 04:06 AM)
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#62186 - 01/07/12 12:18 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
oenophore Online   confused
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If a new route is freed on top-rope is it a new route gone free?

Yes, but as you know, such first ascents have (toprope) parenthetically noted in a guidebook with the first lead ascendant's name added if it had been subsequently led. Do you think that's a bad idea?
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#62189 - 01/07/12 05:14 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
donald perry Offline
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I added one sentence in the second paragraph.


Edited by donald perry (01/07/12 07:32 PM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62190 - 01/07/12 07:33 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Originally Posted By: oenophore
Yes, but as you know, such first ascents have (toprope) parenthetically noted in a guidebook with the first lead ascendant's name added if it had been subsequently led. Do you think that's a bad idea?


Once you are experienced enough, you can consistently lead whatever you can top-rope. So, I think the only thing we need to know is whether or not it is a A1, A2, A3, A4, or A5 as far as the protection is concerned. If it is A5 or X than you can top rope it or … solo/lead it.

So I would have to say Yes. I think it is wonderful that we have such an interesting history and I appreciate the added drama that the old ethics has given us, but are all the bolts in New River really worth that notoriety? However and, where would climbing be today as a whole, or individually if we concentrated more on climbing and less on ethics and the ego? I think that it was not until the climbing gym that people started to concentrate more on climbing and physical aptitude. Previously working out in the winter was not always that successful.

I think it all boils down to this. Mathematically, is leading the same as top-rope seconding? And if it is, for the sake of bolts, perhaps style should be a private, rather than a public concern. The only thing we need to know is the grades 5.11 G, PG, R, or X.

But then again, "No", it is not a bad thing in this case. Only in the case where something is only top-roped where no story of climbing with protection can be given, then it should be noted as top-roped. There has to be leading involved if someone is going to grade it in that respect.
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62191 - 01/07/12 08:50 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
oenophore Online   confused
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Are you suggesting that if a route may be readily toproped yet cannot be reasonably lead without bolting, it is best left as a toprope-only route? If so, I'd agree with that.

Such a route may be lead, of course, as an x-rated virtual solo.
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#62195 - 01/08/12 02:50 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
RangerRob Offline
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The thing about calling something a first ascent if it has only been toproped....it just seems like you can hang a toprope literally anywhere you want. So what is stopping us from dropping a line every 4 or 5 feet along the cliff and climbing plumb lines? How many "first ascent" lines can be squeezed into a given section of rock? The same holds true, to a lesser extent, with bolted routes. At some point it all becomes rather absurd.

I forget what guidebook I was reading, where the author describes the effort put into freeing a top rope route by a climber, and says something like.."This route is a testament to the vision and boldness of ### ###". The climber in question is without question very gifted....but it take a visionary to toprope something.

So I guess what I am saying somewhere deep down is that I kind of feel that the label of fisrt ascent should be reserved for things that are led. It's too easy to drop a line from the top and squeeze a line in.

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#62196 - 01/08/12 07:16 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
retroscree Offline
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Originally Posted By: oenophore
Are you suggesting that if a route may be readily toproped yet cannot be reasonably lead without bolting, it is best left as a toprope-only route? If so, I'd agree with that.

Unfortunately that eliminates a huge number of routes, some quite famous. It actually eliminates a significant number of entire cliffs.

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#62199 - 01/08/12 07:41 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
Lucander Offline
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RR,

Sounds like you've been reading up on Blade Runner in the old Gunks Select.

DL

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#62205 - 01/09/12 01:05 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: oenophore
Are you suggesting that if a route may be readily toproped yet cannot be reasonably lead without bolting, it is best left as a toprope-only route? If so, I'd agree with that.


Unfortunately that eliminates a huge number of routes, some quite famous. It actually eliminates a significant number of entire cliffs.


Which routes? I don't think it eliminates anything except the bolts on those routes. Are people, and what they did with bolts really such a necessary part of climbing that we can't deal with the rock just the way it is without the bolting? I think bolting, especially in recent times, has only demonstrated nothing but confusion.

When I say this I am not talking about climbs like Apollo Reed or the Nose of El Capitan. I am talking about climbs like The Gun Club and countless others. Vertical routes where the idea is that unless you use the bolts you are not really doing the climb.
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62206 - 01/09/12 01:15 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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I am beginning to see very little difference between top-roping and leading. This does not have to be true for every person, but it has to be true in every climb, as to what is physically required. But if it is true with one person, that it makes no difference to lead or to follow, then the whole idea goes out the window, that leading is necessary to really "do the climb".

This would mean that all these bolts, all this time have only represented nonsense and confusion. Just because leading scares some people, it does not make a climb harder if it does not make the climb harder for the best climbers. Making a climb harder for the weakest climbers, who would notice the difference does not mean anything.


Edited by donald perry (01/09/12 01:27 AM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62209 - 01/09/12 03:05 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
RangerRob Offline
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Donald, I think you may be overthinking this a little. You're not factoring the psychological aspect of leading versus toproping into the equation. For a select few climbers, this equation is trivial. For most of us however, the psychological aspect is pretty big, and will remain so. There ARE such things as consequences when leading. A route toproped is done with zero consequences.

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#62231 - 01/09/12 10:26 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
Mike Rawdon Offline

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Originally Posted By: donald perry
I am beginning to see very little difference between top-roping and leading. This does not have to be true for every person, but it has to be true in every climb, as to what is physically required. But if it is true with one person, that it makes no difference to lead or to follow, then the whole idea goes out the window, that leading is necessary to really "do the climb".

This would mean that all these bolts, all this time have only represented nonsense and confusion. Just because leading scares some people, it does not make a climb harder if it does not make the climb harder for the best climbers. Making a climb harder for the weakest climbers, who would notice the difference does not mean anything.


By extension then, any climb that a climber can follow (without falling or weighting the rope) can be free solo'ed by that climber.

Gee, all this time spent learning gear...such a waste.

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#62241 - 01/10/12 05:31 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Originally Posted By: donald perry

Once you are experienced enough, you can consistently lead whatever you can top-rope.


Then you aren't trying hard enough. Unless you are onsighting .15a then you have more to go.

also, many cliffs do not have perfect top rope access like at the Gunks. Many are too overhanging to safely top rope also (at least without having bolted directionals)

Not every cliff or type of rock can be done with trad gear. Bolted sport routes allow us to climb those places.

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#62270 - 01/14/12 03:43 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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Originally Posted By: RangerRob
... You're not factoring the psychological aspect of leading versus toproping into the equation. For a select few climbers, this equation is trivial....


Yes, well, my point has to do with when it is ["trivial"] meaningless.
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62271 - 01/14/12 03:56 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: RangerRob]
donald perry Offline
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Originally Posted By: RangerRob
You're not factoring the psychological aspect of leading versus toproping into the equation. ....


I think that this psychological aspect, when it is A3, eventually dissipates. So, I think it is safe to eliminate the "psychological aspect" when I make my argument.

When I am talking about leading, I do not see the on-sight factor as part of anything that has to do with climbing. I do not believe it is possible to lead rightly without tinkering excessively with gear. In my mind if you are set on on-sighting routes you are not really concerned with making sure you are leading rather than soloing.

Furthermore, if you are going to down-climb, to preserve your on-sight, then I think you are going to drive your seconds insane and waste a lot of time... it is pointless.

I think if however, if you happen to on-sight, that is fine, but it should only rightly be based on chance after you have made sure about all the gear, rather then to climb with a purpose to on-sight.


Edited by donald perry (01/14/12 04:10 AM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62272 - 01/14/12 05:21 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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I think Donald and Bradley White from Rumney should meet up and talk about their weird ass theories on climbing.

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#62277 - 01/14/12 06:41 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Originally Posted By: donald perry

Once you are experienced enough, you can consistently lead whatever you can top-rope.


[From jakedatc] Then you aren't trying hard enough. Unless you are onsighting .15a then you have more to go.


[From Don] I think that is pretty good, leading whatever you can toprope. No? How can you "try harder" and do better than that?

[From jakedatc] also, many cliffs do not have perfect top rope access like at the Gunks. Many are too overhanging to safely top rope also (at least without having bolted directionals) Not every cliff or type of rock can be done with trad gear. Bolted sport routes allow us to climb those places. [/quote]

[From Don] I know, I already said "I am not talking about climbs like Apollo Reed … I am talking about …Vertical climbs…"
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62480 - 02/09/12 05:22 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Concerning bolts and the chopping of the compressor route I would like to quote Reinhold Messner to give some idea of what he says climbing is about. [Although I know I am taking him out of context somewhat] My point is that in the future I think we will see that, just like with snow, bolts will likewise blow away as well. And I would say, for the most part, the sooner the better. I think we really need to get as far away from this gym bolt mentality as possible. I really see no need for it. But, at the same time I think chopping bolts wrong, that is until they have reached near the reasonable end of their life expectancy. Then you can unscrew them hopefully.

Reinhold Messner: A Climb is only there for me. If I climb up a wall there is a line. Before during and afterwards. And this line is really done. But afterwards you see nothing on the wall. I see in my inner eye, my line. ... but we leave nothing. We leave really nothing because they do not see a line ... And I think the biggest possibility of this world is to create the nothing. …. So the next generations they come and they have the wall still empty and they can fill it up, but they again leave nothing forever … forced to come in and be creative with all their abilities, and so they have a strong sense of living. If you are there and the whole wall is prepared, it is much more important to have nothing and create something. But if we create something ?there? then the next generations can do nothing because everything is already done. …. I think we recreate the world in each generation again, the wind is blowing away my foot prints, we never know where this way is bring us.

From


Messner Starring Reinhold Messner, Sir Christian Bonington, Ed Viesturs, et al.
(5)

Rent: $1.99
Buy: $9.99
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62481 - 02/09/12 10:34 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
oenophore Online   confused
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Rather poetic prose from Mr. Messner. So the proper ethic is, "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but chalk."
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#62482 - 02/10/12 02:08 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
jakedatc Offline
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So if you don't bolt anything than thousands of routes will go undone. yep that's a great idea. :eye roll:

there should also be no roads, no trails, no buildings, no vehicles.

we should all walk around living in grass huts that will disintegrate eventually when not kept up.

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#62483 - 02/10/12 11:13 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
oenophore Online   confused
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Perhaps a good compromise between the extremes is, going forward, drill holes but don't bolt. A worldwide standard diameter is to be established, say one centimeter. Such holes would be drilled slightly upward to preclude clogging by debris and filling with water. Wired springloaded cam devices would be inserted into these holes for protection and removed by a follower. True, the cliff is defaced, but not nearly to the extent as would a highly visible bolt.
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#62484 - 02/10/12 01:48 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
chip Online   content
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Registered: 10/06/01
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I've never used a removable bolt or even seen one, but I have heard of routes that require you bring them along. Anyone know how reliable they are?

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#62485 - 02/10/12 02:52 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: chip]
retroscree Offline
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Originally Posted By: chip
I've never used a removable bolt or even seen one, but I have heard of routes that require you bring them along. Anyone know how reliable they are?

I've heard they're reliable and do in fact work, but are frequently damaged, sometimes to the point of being unremovable, after holding a fall. I have not used them.

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#62487 - 02/10/12 10:48 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
oenophore Online   confused
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Registered: 09/24/01
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I didn't hint at a removable bolt but rather a hole into which a device like a Friend, Camalot, Alien, etc. may be inserted.
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#62490 - 02/11/12 03:55 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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I am not talking about eliminating them I am talking about reducing them.

A lot of things should be top roped. For example bolts are nonessential on 98% of the routes in the New River George.

The nice thing about these anchors is that there are no surprises. It's your equipment.


Edited by donald perry (02/11/12 03:57 AM)
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#62491 - 02/11/12 12:59 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
oenophore Online   confused
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Posts: 5981
Loc: 212 land
That picture illustrates what I've posted.
.................................................................
I am not talking about eliminating them I am talking about reducing them.

The same could be said apropos jakedatc's rant above.
.................................................................

The nice thing about these anchors is that there are no surprises. It's your equipment.

Ask how many of us have been surprised by our own equipment.
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#62492 - 02/11/12 02:31 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
donald perry Offline
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"Ask how many of us have been surprised by our own equipment."

I feel less comfortable falling on someone else's bolts.
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62494 - 02/11/12 03:17 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
chip Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2679
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
The folks who frequent this site are generally committed trad climbers. Why trad? We could be like so many who climb only in gyms because we like the movement, friendship and atmosphere. We could stick to sport climbing and therefore also get to enjoy the outside experience.
I suspect there are many factors, but for me it is a combination of the enjoyment of figuring out my moves and gear, taking control of my own experience, getting to see and experience places most might only suspect exist, and most of all, the realization of the need for adventure in my life.
I think this is the heart of what Messner wrote of and why top roping can be very fun but not as fulfilling for me. Perhaps highball bouldering and soloists are taking that to it's logical conclusion and I am not at that level of committment. Make no mistake, I will always come home relatively intact from climbing because I care more for my family than the urge to hang it out there, but I enjoy some uncertainty to the outcome. I will clip any bolt already placed but do not seek out a climb for that purpose. Climbing is more than a fun workout for me and that is why I choose to enjoy trad. I so appreciate the gunks for that reason, even though it is becoming more an outdoor trad climbing gym each year. Walking up to an unknown line, without pre-placed pro, and going for it without any beta remains the most fun day I can imagine, and thankfully that can still be done in an area I have frequented for more than 30 years. Not bad.

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#62498 - 02/11/12 03:40 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Chances are the bolt is safe, nevertheless I feel uncomfortable falling on someone else's bolts and even more uncomfortable falling on the community equipment.

Nowadays, bolts are for babies, and I will disrespect you for that. You can put one bolt at the top of the route, but all the rest demonstrate the childish misconception that you are doing something more committing when you are not. If you want to go on rides, go to an amusement park,stop drilling holes all over the cliff.

For example, here is a beautiful assent by Jonathan Siegrist sending a new line at Red River Gorge, naming it "24 Karats".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk-GWdG0Z...ture=plpp_video

But there is an illusion here my brothers. The fact of the matter is:

1.) He started on top rope with a heavy drill, and that part is left out of the video because it is ugly.

2.) He is not going to get hurt now any worse now than if he left it a top rope from the beginning.

3.) He appears to be doing something harder, when in fact Jonathan is off route. In reality were no bolts on "14 Karats": That is why when anyone topropes a climb like this it will be done better style.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62499 - 02/11/12 04:13 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
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Originally Posted By: donald perry

Chances are the bolt is safe, nevertheless I feel uncomfortable falling on someone else's bolts and even more uncomfortable falling on the community equipment.

Nowadays, bolts are for babies, and I will disrespect you for that. You can put one bolt at the top of the route, but all the rest demonstrate the childish misconception that you are doing something more committing when you are not. If you want to go on rides, go to an amusement park,stop drilling holes all over the cliff.

For example, here is a beautiful assent by Jonathan Siegrist sending a new line at Red River Gorge, naming it "24 Karats".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk-GWdG0Z...ture=plpp_video

But there is an illusion here my brothers. The fact of the matter is:

1.) He started on top rope with a heavy drill, and that part is left out of the video because it is ugly.

2.) He is not going to get hurt now any worse now than if he left it a top rope from the beginning.

3.) He appears to be doing something harder, when in fact Jonathan is off route. In reality were no bolts on "14 Karats": That is why when anyone topropes a climb like this it will be done better style.

So what. Bolts and sport climbing are here to stay. Either enjoy the climbing for what it is, don't climb those routes if they offend you so much, or crawl back under a rock in your cave and be a bitter old man grumbling about the passing of the good old days when real men didn't need bolts.

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#62500 - 02/11/12 08:29 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Not necessarily here to stay. What is keeping the bolts here now, in the many places, is a misconception. Misconceptions end someday and become a thing of the past.


Edited by donald perry (02/11/12 08:35 PM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62501 - 02/11/12 10:35 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Originally Posted By: donald perry

Chances are the bolt is safe, nevertheless I feel uncomfortable falling on someone else's bolts and even more uncomfortable falling on the community equipment.

Nowadays, bolts are for babies, and I will disrespect you for that. You can put one bolt at the top of the route, but all the rest demonstrate the childish misconception that you are doing something more committing when you are not. If you want to go on rides, go to an amusement park,stop drilling holes all over the cliff.

For example, here is a beautiful assent by Jonathan Siegrist sending a new line at Red River Gorge, naming it "24 Karats


I'll go one step further. You're a delusional old man.

It is an FA. He put the line up it, it does not go on gear, it is grades harder than you could ever dream of climbing.

Your idea of ethics, especially trying to apply them in other areas, are fucking stupid.

do you trust your own rope because you didn't braid it yourself? Who doesn't trust a well placed bolt in a popular sport area? fuck you are a douchebag.

Luckily your ideas are not the majority and people are putting up great areas bolted and trad and in areas like the Red and New that coexist.

Go back to soloing shit and STFU.

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#62502 - 02/11/12 10:37 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
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Originally Posted By: donald perry
Not necessarily here to stay. What is keeping the bolts here now, in the many places, is a misconception. Misconceptions end someday and become a thing of the past.

Gee, I thought it was the friction of the expansion mechanism.

Yep. 35 years and 10's of thousands of routes worldwide. Obviously a passing fad based on a misconception. Funny, everything you say was once said about Friends. And sticky rubber shoes.

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#62503 - 02/11/12 11:17 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
jakedatc Offline
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Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Not necessarily here to stay. What is keeping the bolts here now, in the many places, is a misconception. Misconceptions end someday and become a thing of the past.

Gee, I thought it was the friction of the expansion mechanism.

Yep. 35 years and 10's of thousands of routes worldwide. Obviously a passing fad based on a misconception. Funny, everything you say was once said about Friends. And sticky rubber shoes.


haha i missed that one. Sorry Donald the only thing that is a thing of the past is you.

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#62506 - 02/12/12 01:25 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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As the bolts that are placed WILL alter the line, would you agree, Jakedatc, Retroscree, that the bolts should it be:

1. Just out of reach so the climb has a new move, where clipping the bolts is the crux, or should they be within easy reach?

2. Should the bolts be next to the big holds or next to the small holds when there is a choice?

3. Should they be spaced so few and far apart that whenever you are clipping its over a ground fall, and should there be so few that if ever one bolt will pull out there will be a ground fall? And after a "first accent" [I think this is the wrong word for this] can more bolts be placed between these bolts if someone feels it's a good idea?

4. Should new steel bolts be chopped if they are not stainless?

5. If someone can climb with fewer bolts can the extra bolts be removed if they are steel?

6. If someone can climb with natural protection should the bolts be removed?

7. Should glued on holds be chopped. [Just thought I would throw that in as well.]

8. Should the bolts reflect what makes the climb as hard as possible or should they cater to what will make the climb as easy as possible?


9. And who should decide these things?, or should it be up to just anyone if no one cares?


To be ethically correct, where is the right place to put bolts and how in your respect?
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#62507 - 02/12/12 02:06 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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1. on certain routes having the clip a bit far can keep the rope out of the way of a fall or keep you off of a ledge if you fall above it. Or it may be far but it might be on the best hold available instead of mid-move on a hard section.

2. I haven't been on too many routes that bypass large clipping holds for smaller ones.

3. good developers create a safe distance between bolts. I don't think that a bolt failing is a likely scenario so that isn't an issue. (Post a report of a failed bolt in the US at a maintained crag. no homemade hanger, 1/4"er bullshit)

4. Replaced maybe, chopped and left no. I don't know about desert areas that wouldn't need as much water protection.

5. Climb the route as bolted. skip a bolt if you're so inclined.

6. FA bolted the route, if you'd like to do it on gear then have at it. If the area is predominantly a sport area than bolting a route that could be gear protected or partially protected is more acceptable. In a trad area then that is less acceptable so it should not happen in the first place

7. glued ON holds shouldn't be done in the first place. Glue reinforced holds should stay if they are done well and are safe. especially if the hold is key to the route.

8. Bolts go where the line goes.

9. FA develops the route, local community decides the local ethics of the area.

10. Bolted routes go where trad gear cannot be placed or if the local ethic allows on routes where the protection is not safe ie R/X routes that they FA does not want to be R/X. Local examples being Arrow, Keep on Struttin, Never neverland


Return question for you Donald. How many pitons have you placed?

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#62508 - 02/12/12 02:19 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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In the Gunks?, a few.
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#62509 - 02/12/12 02:41 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Anywhere. You're trying to place a fairly small ethical stance to many areas so how many pitons have you placed that permanently damage the rock and create holds that did not exist before?

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#62510 - 02/12/12 02:42 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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In the Gunks?, a few. I was the first to start a number of new questions with the ethics of fixed protection.

To: "Should the bolts reflect what makes the climb as hard as possible or should they cater to what will make the climb as easy as possible?" you answered "Bolts go where the line goes."

Bolts are placed in different places for different reasons. But where there must be a choice, should bolts be placed that will either make the climb harder or make it easier. Easier can be when the bolts are farther apart or else more numerous.

As far as "FA develops the route, local community decides the local ethics of the area." I believe ultimately there are right and wrong answer, this may have nothing to do with the thinking either of the developers or the local community. We cannot not, for example, ask them these questions where there will always be agreement.


Edited by donald perry (02/12/12 05:24 PM)
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#62511 - 02/12/12 02:49 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Originally Posted By: donald perry
In the Gunks?, a few. I was the first to start problems with the ethics of fixed protection that I know of.

To: "Should the bolts reflect what makes the climb as hard as possible or should they cater to what will make the climb as easy as possible?" you answered "Bolts go where the line goes."

Bolts are placed in different places for different reasons. But where there must be a choice, should bolts be placed that will either make the climb harder or make it easier. Easier can be when the bolts are farther apart or else more numerous.

As far as "FA develops the route, local community decides the local ethics of the area." I believe ultimately there are right and wrong answer, this may have nothing to do with the thinking either of the developers or the local community. We cannot not, for example, ask them these questions where there will always be agreement.


Sport routes should be bolted so it follows the line. Where the bolts go depends on the route, the holds, the movement of the route etc.

There is no right or wrong answer. There are many different kinds of rock that take or don't take gear. You can't apply Gunks ethics of trad gear only (mostly) to an area like Rumney where there is just not gear to be placed on most routes. You can't take sport route ethics and bolt Indian Creek splitters.

Trying to slam the whole climbing sport into one ideal that YOU think is right is ridiculous and naive.

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#62513 - 02/12/12 04:52 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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The question is: if a bolt makes the climbing hard or easy what is the right answer for its placement.

The way I see it, you did not answer the question either because you don't understand it's significance or you don't care. I don't think "There is no right or wrong answer." makes any sense.

If we put a bolt on the Infinite Space roof somewhere between where you put your feet and your tie in point on your harness it would make it more easy to do the crux move to the lip. If we put that bolt somewhere past your tie in point it would make it harder.

Where should the first ascent party put their bolt?


Edited by donald perry (02/12/12 04:54 AM)
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#62514 - 02/12/12 05:07 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Mark Sprague and Dave Quinn at Rumney place their bolts where they think is best for the route. I have seen them working on routes and they top rope the route and mark possible bolt spots, climb it again then drill the holes.

Sometimes having a bolt at waist level is best to clip. other times it's a long reach it DEPENDS on the route.

Stick to your 1 route on a cement wall with bricks set into it. then you can decide what YOU want for YOUR one route in the world.

i'm out, enjoy being an old has been.

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#62515 - 02/12/12 05:15 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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So the way I understand you, what you seem to be saying is Mark Sprague and Dave Quinn can figure it out.

That's not an answer, now I think you are just ignoring the question for any number of unknowable reasons, all of which weaken your theory that there is a reasonable place for bolts. Jakedac, if you don't have the answers on where the bolts belong then you should admit it and let others deal with the question.


Edited by donald perry (02/12/12 05:29 AM)
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#62516 - 02/12/12 05:21 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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What i'm saying is that whoever is bolting a route can figure it out. you clearly cannot. stick to top roping.

You should really talk to Champoing over on NEClimbs.. he'd LOVE to nitpick ethical bullshit all day with you. you'll have to learn Frenglish though.

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#62517 - 02/12/12 05:32 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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"whoever is bolting a route can figure it out"

Thanks for admitting your completely not a part of the argument about bolts. Can anyone else answer the question?


Edited by donald perry (02/12/12 05:34 AM)
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#62518 - 02/12/12 06:09 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
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Originally Posted By: donald perry
The question is: if a bolt makes the climbing hard or easy what is the right answer for its placement.

The way I see it, you did not answer the question either because you don't understand it's significance or you don't care. I don't think "There is no right or wrong answer." makes any sense.

If we put a bolt on the Infinite Space roof somewhere between where you put your feet and your tie in point on your harness it would make it more easy to do the crux move to the lip. If we put that bolt somewhere past your tie in point it would make it harder.

Where should the first ascent party put their bolt?

Where ever the hell they want.

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#62519 - 02/12/12 11:41 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

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From "What are the rules of conduct for the forum?" on Gunks.com's faq page.:

1. Be respectful
6. Avoid name calling (jerk, idiot, psychopath, terrorist, bunched panties)
9. Agree to disagree
10. If someone engages in inappropriate posting behavior, notify a moderator.

Will a moderator respond?
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#62520 - 02/12/12 02:35 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
retroscree Offline
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Bunched panties seems pretty mild and something we've all had at one time or another.

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#62521 - 02/12/12 04:11 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Moderator, please ignore the rules these other guys are breaking, these badly made arguments for me. I think we need to watch these guys make their point. That is what is important.

I want you children to do a little thinking. First, do you know what an Ad Hominem argument is? You really need to look that word up and study its use. I will give you some examples below.

The Majority is always right. 1. "Trying to slam the whole climbing sport into one ideal that YOU think is right is ridiculous and naive." This statement, like many others here are based on right or wrong based on the majority. If we go to Pakistan or Israel and try and find God does He change depending on what country you are in? There is such a thing as right and wrong in the world, and some people are unable to face up to that. In other words you could be the only Muslim in Israel and be right. Or you could be the only Jew in Pakistan and be right. Truth has nothing to do with the majority. This is some kind of an Ad Hominem here you are making when you argue based on what man is more numerous. Might does not make right.

Old people are stupid. 2. " … old man grumbling about the passing of the good old days … " "I'll go one step further. You're a delusional old man. " First, if I am older then you that means I am smarter than you are, so to bring that up only makes me look like I know better then you. Being respectful to old folk is something engrained in every culture. So, I think if you want to stick with the majorly then you should admit you are inconsistent and apologize to all the old people here on the forum. "old" is not accepted as curse word. It could be argued that here again, all you are doing is proving your argument about the majority is a weak one that you don't even believe in. The majorly does not believe that young people are wiser than the old people. Your arguments are proving to be inconsistent.

The world is stagnate, it cannot be galvanized. 3. "Bolts and sport climbing are here to stay … enjoy the climbing for what it is … " Since when has climbing stopped changing? Oh, I am sorry, guess you would not know. Well … if you wait until that age of disrespect is upon you, then perhaps you may know something about this. My point is that if it has changed before it will change again, what is to stop it? A misconception? Substituting illusions for reality only makes for substantially very poor anchors. That is another point that you are refusing to look at.

Don't challenge ideas. 3. " STFU." Read this book.



You need to learn how to make arguments. A key part of making any argument is being willing to be wrong. If a person is not willing to be wrong then he is admittedly of a stagnated mind subject to all error. You, Me, The argument, none of these things need to be or should be dependent on the other, and if they are then chances are that they stand on prejudice rather than on the unbiased truth.

In the mean time, I am still waiting for an answer to my question. What's up with that? That's what I want to know!
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#62522 - 02/12/12 04:21 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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The question is: if a bolt makes the climbing hard or easy what is the right answer for its placement.

The way I see it, you did not answer the question either because you don't understand it's significance or you don't care. I don't think "There is no right or wrong answer." makes any sense.

If we put a bolt on the Infinite Space roof somewhere between where you put your feet and your tie in point on your harness it would make it more easy to do the crux move to the lip. If we put that bolt somewhere past your tie in point it would make it harder.

Where should the first ascent party put their bolt?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62523 - 02/12/12 04:33 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
worthrussell Offline
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Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Donald I know that whenever i read a post by you im completly wasting my time. Your logic and rambling are incoherent. Pure shit of the smelliest form. I must be a masochist because every time i see a post by you i look. Shame on me as well.

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#62524 - 02/12/12 05:03 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
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Originally Posted By: donald perry
blah blah blah blah


TLINRT

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#62525 - 02/12/12 05:15 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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Loc: New Jersey
OK, let me back up a bit. Do you guys don't put up routes or do you just ... climb?





Edited by donald perry (02/12/12 05:19 PM)
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#62526 - 02/12/12 05:20 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Originally Posted By: donald perry
OK, let me back up a bit. Do you guys don't put up routes or do you just ... climb?


umm yea...

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#62529 - 02/12/12 06:18 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Well, that does not help.


Don, neither does your writing style or grammar. Did you mean to ask...

"Do you guys not put up routes, or do you just ... climb?"

rather than...

"Do you guys don't put up routes or do you just ... climb?" ?

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#62530 - 02/12/12 06:28 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Rickster]
donald perry Offline
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If you don't know what I am saying then why answer the question?

Here I am "the old man" begging people to engage in an argument while at the same time these people have yet to bring themselves to engage themselves fully into climbing.

Put up some new routes guys [So what if it is cold, that should not stop you, it does not stop me. It's not cold till it is 10 degrees]. Perhaps then you will be more likely to have had to come some kind of ... conclusions we can argue.

Right now your just sitting on the side lines, how can you speak from experience? How can you even trust that you know what you are saying?

The sad truth of most gym climbers is, that most of you only know how to clip or drill bolts at a consistent 70 degrees and that is all you know.


Edited by donald perry (02/12/12 06:34 PM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62531 - 02/12/12 06:38 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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The question I am asking is: if a bolt makes the climbing hard or easy what is the right answer for its placement.

The way I see it, you did not answer the question either because you don't understand it's significance or you don't care. I don't think "There is no right or wrong answer." makes any sense.

If we put a bolt on the Infinite Space roof somewhere between where you put your feet and your tie in point on your harness it would make it more easy to do the crux move to the lip. If we put that bolt somewhere past your tie in point it would make it harder.

Where should the first ascent party put their bolt?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62532 - 02/12/12 07:21 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Lets see, i live 4 hours from Rumney which is pretty much done with new routing. i live 13 hours from RRG which has TONS of potential for new routes but the commute is a bitch.

you don't believe in bolts, would rather use inferior removable bolts. all while pounding in pitons that permanently scar the rock.

why should i try to answer your repeated (annoyingly so) question that i've already answered.

Top rope these and get back to me.



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#62533 - 02/12/12 07:23 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: donald perry
If you don't know what I am saying then why answer the question?


Don, you've missed the point of my previous post. I was asking you to clarify a specific question you asked up thread. If you did so, maybe someone might be interested enough to offer an answer or maybe just an opinion. crazy

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#62534 - 02/12/12 08:40 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Rickster]
donald perry Offline
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"Top rope these and get back to me."

OK ... what climbs? Looks like NRG 5.11 to me. How am I supposed to find them with only these pictures? Can you give me the location, names, and the grade? I hope these are pictures of you and not someone else. I hope there is a point to this.

BTW if you want to put up a new route, I know where you can do that at the Gunks. Just go out past Millbrook, it goes on forever. Or climb any of that stuff over the Old Route. And I think you can still bolt in Kingston, although I have never been.


Edited by donald perry (02/12/12 09:01 PM)
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#62535 - 02/12/12 08:47 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Rickster]
donald perry Offline
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I wrote: "Do you guys don't put up routes or do you just ... climb?

To which Jakedatc wrote: "umm yea..."

Sorry for the confusion, more clearly: You guys do not to put up routes?
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62536 - 02/12/12 09:01 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: donald perry
"Top rope these and get back to me."

OK ... what climbs? Looks like NRG, but I am not so sure. How am I supposed to find them with only these pictures? Can you give me the location, names, and the grade? I hope these are pictures of you and not someone else.


They are of me. and apparently you're not very well versed at the Red because those are fairly easily recognizable routes.

1. Ro shampo 12a. you can't try this the crag is closed for now

2. Fuzzy Undercling 11b Military wall

3. Twinkie 12a Phantasia wall

good luck reaching the top of any of them as there is not really access to get there. but you're the top rope hero so i'm sure you'll find a way.

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#62537 - 02/12/12 09:20 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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Looks similar to some things I have seen at New River.

1. Ro shampo 12a. looks like something near Mono Loco 5.14a Beauty Mountain, it has one of those round holes you often see around there.

2. Fuzzy Undercling 11b looks like something near Grace Note 5.12b Beauty Mountain.

3. Twinkie 12a Phantasia wall looks like something west of Psycho Wrangler 5.12a Cotton Top.

There are some similarities.

I'll get to Twinkie and Fuzzy later, gotta get back down there again. I top-rope everything down there, there is no reason for the bolts. If it is overhanging however, like Apollo Reed, then I need to use a pole and back clip some bolts on the way down so I don't swing into the ground or hit trees. After I fall off I tape the rope and pull it back down. I climb it the same as if I was seconding it dragging a second rope behind to pull it back again.

Too bad, why is Roshampo closed? Perhaps that would not be the case if you guys where merely top-roping and not drilling so many holes? Wouldn't that decrease the liabilities?



I think what is happening here is that most of you guys have been spending too much time in that nice warm gym. Now the psychosis that you suffer from is that you believe that so many bolts, so many anchors is natural. This illusion that you suffer from is that you believe that what you see in nature is unnatural, so you have to drill holes all over the cliff to make it look to what you believe is normal.

What you guys believe is not normal. It is insane, it is madness, it is ugly. The climbs are just as safe as they were before, leaving it as a top rope. What is the point?, there is none other then it is what you are used to. Leave the cliff so it can be found by others never knowing for certain that you were ever there. That is what good climbing should strive for, not bolting every inch of rock you can get your hands on.

I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

Where ever it is reasonable [vertical 160' cliffs for example] and when it is allowable, bolts should be removed and filled back with epoxy cement made from the same rock that that it was drilled out of.


Edited by donald perry (02/13/12 03:02 AM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62538 - 02/13/12 12:05 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
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multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

Ah Don, "we're" is more apropos than "you're" in that last sentence -- all-too-clever roaches that infest the earth. And we've even invented our own "insecticides." Of the Seven Deadly Sins, the one practiced in this thread is vanity. As far as I know, roaches do not sin this way. I think vanity drives the ethical violations discussed here.
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#62540 - 02/13/12 01:55 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: donald perry
If it is overhanging however, like Apollo Reed, then I need to use a pole and back clip some bolts on the way down so I don't swing into the ground or hit trees.


NO NO NO... you can't clip bolts willy nilly whenever you feel like it. No.. TOP ROPE

you cheat at your own ethics.. what a fucking poser.

you say there shouldn't be bolts in the wall and then you clip them.

lying piece of shit

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#62542 - 02/13/12 02:59 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
Doug Online   content
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Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 176
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Originally Posted By: donald perry
If it is overhanging however, like Apollo Reed, then I need to use a pole and back clip some bolts on the way down so I don't swing into the ground or hit trees.


NO NO NO... you can't clip bolts willy nilly whenever you feel like it. No.. TOP ROPE

you cheat at your own ethics.. what a fucking poser.

you say there shouldn't be bolts in the wall and then you clip them.

lying piece of shit


Jeez Jake, you need to unwind. Donald is long-winded and takes peculiar stances, but you don't come off well. I cringe when I end up on the same side of an "argument" as you, as your debate toolkit seems to consist of spraying about hard-ish routes you've been on, and that you've high-fived developers at Rumney. It feels like you take these aggressive stances to defend what you think your heroes views are, and probably e-mail them links to it for approval.

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#62543 - 02/13/12 03:21 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Doug]
jakedatc Offline
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I chose those 3 routes because they are steep and have little no no top access. in the grand scheme of things they are not hard but i did have pictures of them. top roping them would be absurd and dangerous.

I used examples of developers i know fairly well because i've seen them both putting in new routes and described their method of bolt placement.

I am describing my own opinion and have not talked to either of them about this thread.

Donald is long winded, incoherent at times and takes a holier than thou stance that he top ropes every sport route and says that they should not be bolted YET says that he clips bolts part way up as directionals. You can't have it both ways. You can't vilify bolted routes and then clip the freakin bolts. It's like saying you're going to be a vegetarian because you don't like the killing of the animals.. except when i eat a cheeseburger.

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#62544 - 02/13/12 04:04 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
SethG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 714
Loc: NYC
I have some sympathy for both sides in this particular argument.

Like everyone else, I get frustrated reading Don's long-winded, repetitive arguments but damn it all if he doesn't often make points I can't dismiss out of hand. He's like Don Quixote or The Fool or dare I say it The Walrus... buried in the absurdity is truth you ignore at your own peril.

I have never put up a new route. I think I can safely say I will never put up a sport route or drill a bolt on a trad route. So my opinion of drilling hardly matters.
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#62546 - 02/13/12 04:16 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: SethG]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319

Originally Posted By: SethG
... buried in the absurdity is truth you ignore at your own peril.



Like what, the 'against it before he was for it" position on bolts that has so irked jake or the 'human beings as disease' thing?

Originally Posted By: SethG

So my opinion of drilling hardly matters.


OK but surely you can take a position on logic, all the ad homs aside? That said, his throwdown with Kent was hilarious, so maybe you are onto something.

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#62553 - 02/13/12 10:03 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
donald perry Offline
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Originally Posted By: oenophore
multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

Ah Don, "we're" is more apropos than "you're" in that last sentence -- all-too-clever roaches that infest the earth. And we've even invented our own "insecticides." Of the Seven Deadly Sins, the one practiced in this thread is vanity. As far as I know, roaches do not sin this way. I think vanity drives the ethical violations discussed here.


Well ... bolts no bolts ... I can just keep climbing past them and ignoring them. I just mention them here because they remind me of billboard advertising along the side of mountain roads.



I do not think bolting short cliff faces has anything to do with ethics or climbing.



Edited by donald perry (02/13/12 10:41 PM)
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#62554 - 02/13/12 10:14 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
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Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Originally Posted By: donald perry
If it is overhanging however, like Apollo Reed, then I need to use a pole and back clip some bolts on the way down so I don't swing into the ground or hit trees.


NO NO NO... you can't clip bolts willy nilly whenever you feel like it. No.. TOP ROPE

you cheat at your own ethics.. what a fucking poser.



you say there shouldn't be bolts in the wall and then you clip them.

lying piece of shit


Hay dude, you are taking me out of context. So far out of context you are not even talking to me. My ethic is less not none ... wow.


Edited by donald perry (02/13/12 10:16 PM)
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#62555 - 02/13/12 10:27 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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Originally Posted By: jakedatc
... You can't vilify bolted routes and then clip the freakin bolts. It's like saying you're going to be a vegetarian because you don't like the killing of the animals.. except when i eat a cheeseburger.


Look at New River climbs. What percentage of those climbs would you estimate jakedatc could be top roped without bolts? 90%? That is what I am talking about and not Apollo Reed.

Without bolts on Apollo Reed you would not swing into trees, you would crater. So, on a climb like that, if we want to climb on it there has to be bolts. But on the other 90% of the climbs in New River, it is not necessary.

But then again ... I think I could reasonably free Apollo Reed with passive protection without getting into the X zone. There are places there for cams and nuts. What would you think if I got up there, free climbing between the protections without the bolts?



Because of time restrictions I might have to rest on the protection.

BTW, Why do you think this guy has a bolt drill in his tongue? He has it there because its *normal*. But it's not normal, no more normal then when you put that same drill into the rock and drill so many unnecessary holes the wall no longer looks like a cliff.


Edited by donald perry (02/14/12 01:21 AM)
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#62556 - 02/13/12 10:52 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: SethG]
GOclimb Offline
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Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2362
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: SethG
I have some sympathy for both sides in this particular argument.

Like everyone else, I get frustrated reading Don's long-winded, repetitive arguments but damn it all if he doesn't often make points I can't dismiss out of hand. He's like Don Quixote or The Fool or dare I say it The Walrus... buried in the absurdity is truth you ignore at your own peril.

I have never put up a new route. I think I can safely say I will never put up a sport route or drill a bolt on a trad route. So my opinion of drilling hardly matters.


I am not a big shot, I'm just a regular climber, but I have done FAs in five states, using whatever was the appropriate method for the line, and for the area. Some were simply topropes, some were simply bouldered, some were led ground up on gear, some were cleaned and bolted top-down sport style. Some were frightfests with multiple falls, no-fall zones, and/or blown gear, while others were super-safe clip-ups. Some were left entirely unchanged for the next person do do another "FA" up whatever line they fancied, while others were extensively cleaned.

Point is, I've been around enough to know a few things. One thing I know for sure is that Donald Perry, at least insofar as he presents himself here, is so ignorant and incoherent that trying to have any kind of discussion with him is a waste of time. Which is why I haven't bothered to respond to any of this.

The only reason why I'm replying now is because DJP is throwing out the "well you haven't done any FAs, so you don't know anything" BS.

GO

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#62557 - 02/13/12 11:10 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: GOclimb]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
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Originally Posted By: GOclimb
Originally Posted By: SethG
I have some sympathy for both sides in this particular argument.

Like everyone else, I get frustrated reading Don's long-winded, repetitive arguments but damn it all if he doesn't often make points I can't dismiss out of hand. He's like Don Quixote or The Fool or dare I say it The Walrus... buried in the absurdity is truth you ignore at your own peril.

I have never put up a new route. I think I can safely say I will never put up a sport route or drill a bolt on a trad route. So my opinion of drilling hardly matters.


I am not a big shot, I'm just a regular climber, but I have done FAs in five states, using whatever was the appropriate method for the line, and for the area. Some were simply topropes, some were simply bouldered, some were led ground up on gear, some were cleaned and bolted top-down sport style. Some were frightfests with multiple falls, no-fall zones, and/or blown gear, while others were super-safe clip-ups. Some were left entirely unchanged for the next person do do another "FA" up whatever line they fancied, while others were extensively cleaned.

Point is, I've been around enough to know a few things. One thing I know for sure is that Donald Perry, at least insofar as he presents himself here, is so ignorant and incoherent that trying to have any kind of discussion with him is a waste of time. Which is why I haven't bothered to respond to any of this.

The only reason why I'm replying now is because DJP is throwing out the "well you haven't done any FAs, so you don't know anything" BS.

GO


GO you wrote "... so ignorant and incoherent that trying to have any kind of discussion with him is a waste of time. Which is why I haven't bothered to respond to any of this. The only reason why I'm replying now is because DJP is throwing out the "well you haven't done any FAs, so you don't know anything" BS.".

GO, the reason I was "throwing it out" is to try to find an answer as to what is the excuse for not answering the question about bolts. Your excuse is just as lame, if not more so. The question that you and others are avoiding is a discussion and the questions. If there is already a debate, if there are already topics on this in Rock & Ice etc. than how can
*anyone* who wants to talk about it be such a waste of time?

Again, below is my question. If you do not want to answer it, that's fine. But to say concerns about so many bolts is a waste of time is silly.

The question was:

"If a bolt makes the climbing harder or easier what is the right answer for its placement.

The way I see it, you did not answer the question either because you don't understand it's significance or you don't care. I don't think "There is no right or wrong answer." makes any sense.

If we put a bolt on the Infinite Space roof somewhere between where you put your feet and your tie in point on your harness it would make it more easy to do the crux move to the lip. If we put that bolt somewhere past your tie in point it would make it harder.

Where should the first ascent party put their bolt?"


Edited by donald perry (02/14/12 12:25 AM)
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#62558 - 02/13/12 11:15 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
It might be interesting to see what responses you get if you post your question on supertopo.com. I think there are one or two people over there who have done a few FAs.

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#62559 - 02/13/12 11:37 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: retroscree
It might be interesting to see what responses you get if you post your question on supertopo.com. I think there are one or two people over there who have done a few FAs.


What would you think if I got up there, free climbing between the protections without the bolts all the way to the top of Apollo Reed?

Quote:
Garibotti: Compressor Route Chopped
Written by admin | |
The Patagonian expert - in every way - and resident Rolando Garibotti, in a SuperTopo post today (January 19), praises Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk's dramatic feat on the Southeast Ridge of Cerro Torre, specifies the particulars as far as known, and reports that the two removed a multitude of bolts on the descent: "The Compressor route is no more," he stated.

The two, he reports, chopped the bolts on the headwall and one of the pitches below it.

"Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk made a very fast ascent (13 hours from the Col of Patience to the top) of the SE ridge of Cerro Torre on what for sometime we have been calling 'fair means' style, which implies not using Maestri's insane bolt ladders," Garibotti states. "We presume they used some of Maestri's belays but in pitches only clipped 5 bolts, four placed by Ermanno Salvaterra on his 1999 variation and one placed by Chris Geisler on his and Jason's variations last season."

He lauds Kruk and Kennedy's action for returning a beautiful mountain to a more natural state, typical of

high alpine peaks, and refers readers to a 2007 Rock and Ice article in which he explicated his opinions:
http://www.pataclimb.com/knowledge/articles/CTbolts.html.

Responding, while expressing his enormous respect for Garibotti and calling himself still overwhelmed by all the news, Greg Crouch, author of Enduring Patagonia, decries Caesar Maestri's original, 1959 first-ascent story as a "complete hoax," later followed by his strange 1970 ascent using a compressor and line of bolts, but found he had mixed feelings about the chopping. "I'm sure I can get used to the idea, and the mountain is certainly closer to its original state than it was a few days ago," Crouch writes, "but on the other hand, it's the end of an incredible story, and I think 'the story' might be the thing I like most about climbing — whether mine or someone else's."

The dramatic climb's concurrent action is bound to be controversial. One corps of climbers will celebrate the action on principle and in support of mountain ethics, and others will feel that through retroactive action they have lost a dream or opportunity to climb the great peak.

As of January 20, Crouch posts again, generating a string of comments of both opinions (from, as he soon notes, people from 40 countries), and the SuperTopo thread has 200 comments.


http://rockandice.com/news/1777-the-compressor-route-is-no-more
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#62560 - 02/13/12 11:47 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Quote:
The following article was written in 2007 after Americans Zach Smith and Josh Wharton climbed a Fair Means variation to the Compressor route on Cerro Torre's SE ridge. During that climb they attempted to remove one of Maestri's bolts and although they did not even manage to take it out their intentions generate a heated debate. This article was originally published in Rock and Ice magazine in 2007.
For more thoughts on the Compressor route read the Ragni route text, the intro to Cerro Torre and the description of the Compressor route.
What's in a summit?
By Rolando Garibotti
The controversy over the Compressor Route bolts has ignited a firestorm, scuffle included, and raises the question of why we climb in the first place. Like most things in life, the why relates to the how. It is important to realize that more than 95 percent of the southeast ridge could be climbed following the natural line, and protected with cams and nuts. To be sure, Patagonia's notorious weather and conditions can still make the Compressor Route challenging, and it still requires some "real" climbing, but that misses the point. Cesare Maestri drilled the many long bolt ladders not to connect natural features but to avoid them, tackling blank rock that he could overcome at a 15-bolt-per-hour pace with his compressor and drill, altering Cerro Torre's natural challenges in a way unseen on any other mountain of such magnificence. Most of the 400 bolts he placed are unnecessary by anybody's standards, even those from back in 1970 when he placed them. Maestri acknowledged as much when, referring to the upper headwall, he wrote in a 1971 Mountain magazine article that, "We could have climbed many sections with normal pins, but we had left them at the bergschrund 3,000 feet lower, so we had no alternative but to drill."
In 1952, after making the first ascent of neighboring Fitz Roy, Lionel Terray described Cerro Torre as "an impossible mountain," a label hardly accurate today. Thanks to the many bolts, the 2,800-foot Compressor Route's recommended rack— five cams, 10 nuts and one ice screw—is smaller than that needed for the Red Rocks classic Epinephrine. At age 17, in 1988, with hardly three years of climbing experience and a youthful lack of introspection into why I was even there, I managed to climb to within four pitches of the top of Maestri's creation. It was obvious to me that my attempt fell well outside the realm of sportsmanship and, when I paused to think about what drew me to the mountains, my experience felt empty and I was never interested in going back. As Reinhold Messner said in a 1971 Mountain interview published alongside his well-known manifesto "The Murder of the Impossible," an article inspired by the Compressor Route, "Climbers must be prepared to wait until peaks can be climbed in a better way."
Our willingness to use the bolts displays an ardent desire to reach a specific geographical point, the summit. But if that is the case, why bother pretending? A helicopter would be more expedient. Or, if that's too far from the natural experience of a physical workout, maybe a jumar line. The late Galen Rowell suggested as much when, in a letter to the editor of Mountain in 1971, he said "Maestri would have saved himself a lot of work by having a fixed line strung over the summit by helicopter. The net result would have been the same." Even if it can be amply exciting, an ascent of the Compressor Route bears similarities to the much-derided ascents of Everest with oxygen, Sherpas and fixed rope, tactics that Mark Jenkins, in a 2005 Outside article, compared to "using a step ladder to dunk a basketball." Some might argue that climbing is supposed to be fun, and that the Compressor is a good time, but something beyond fun must drive people to push themselves to exhaustion in such an inhospitable environment. If climbing's richness is rooted in its challenges and a search for meaning through experience, why would we be so willing to bypass the natural predicament that a mountain presents?
To understand the Compressor Route properly, you must understand Maestri's motivation for establishing the climb. In early 1970, after another unsuccessful attempt on the mountain's west face, the Italian mountaineer Carlo Mauri sent a telegram saying, "We return from the impossible Cerro Torre safe and sound but defeated." This commentary, published in one of Italy's biggest newspapers, Corriere, was a missile aimed at Maestri, who claimed—and still claims—to have reached the summit in 1959. This was the first time that doubts about his 1959 claim were publicly expressed in Italy. Maestri responded, writing in his book 2000 Metri della Nostra Vita, "I return and will attack their routes, the routes they were not able to climb. I will humiliate them, and they will have to feel ashamed of having doubted me." Perhaps the most important word in his statement is "humiliate." Apparently, Maestri did not return to Cerro Torre because he liked the peak or because the southeast ridge was an inspiring line, he returned driven by vengeance.
The rules of climbing are ill-defined, and most of us would agree with Maestri when in a 1972 Mountain interview he stated, "For me the mountains are a space of freedom in which each one of us can behave as he pleases as long as he respects the freedom of the others." But, as Ken Wilson, the then editor of Mountain, explained, "Putting all those bolts on Cerro Torre does interfere with other people's enjoyment." Some might argue that chopping the bolts will have the same negative effect on climbers, or that the bolts can just be avoided, but there is something deeply contradictory about such an overwhelmingly manufactured pathway, on such a fantastic peak, existing merely so that a few people can stand on top. If we accept such a climb because some of us might enjoy it, then it would logically follow that it should be made accessible to those who climb 5.4, or even those who don't climb at all.
Many people have criticized Josh Wharton and Zack Smith for being foreigners trying to impose their ways in a country that is not theirs. First we must remember that Maestri, himself a foreigner, did not discuss his plans before charging ahead, and second we need to establish whose country it really is. Is it the Argentines, including myself—if not by birth by upbringing—who have occupied that land for less than 150 years after killing off all the Tehuelches who lived there for over 10,000 years? Who decides the fate of Maestri's vengeful bolts? Do the locals decide, those who live in Chalten but hardly ever venture into the mountains? Or should the decision be left to people that know the nuances of the discussion a little better, people like Ermanno Salvaterra, who has spent more time on that peak than anyone? An opinion is only as valuable as it is knowledgeable, and knowledge is usually derived from experience. I believe the foreigners in this discussion are those who, regardless of nationality, give opinions without being familiar with the subject. That was certainly not the case with Wharton, who has collected a myriad of phenomenal ascents in the Fitz Roy and Cerro Torre massifs.
When asked about the Compressor Route, the legendary Slovene climber Silvo Karo, responsible for two new routes and one major link up on Cerro Torre, responded, "That climb was stolen from the future. Without all those bolts the history of that marvelous mountain would have been very different. I am convinced that in alpinism how you have climbed is more important than what you have climbed, and I have no doubt that the best are those that leave the least amount of stuff behind." Surprisingly, Maestri agreed with the last part of Karo's statement. In his 2000 Metri della Nostra Vita, Maestri recounts that, before making the first rappel from the high point of his attempt (he stopped 100 feet below the summit) he decided to, "take out all the bolts and leave the climb as clean as we found it. I'll break them all." After chopping 20 bolts, and in the face of the magnitude of the enterprise, Maestri changed his mind. Mario Conti, responsible in 1974 for what is now known to be the first ascent of the mountain, agrees, writing in the 2006 book Enigma Cerro Torre, "Only by taking out the bolts one can imagine the mountain as it was, as it should still be." I believe it is time to finish the job Maestri started, placing his historic bolts where they belong, under the roof of a museum. Maestri's desire for vengeance and the complacency of the hundreds of repeat ascents are weak arguments to justify keeping in place a disfigurement so severe to a mountain as grand as Cerro Torre.
En el mes de febrero de 2007 dos escaladores norteamericanos, Josh Wharton y Zach Smith escalaron el espol
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#62564 - 02/14/12 12:14 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
oenophore Online   confused
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Although this thread in the Gunks Routes forum, very few locations mentioned are in the Gunks.
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#62565 - 02/14/12 12:21 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
donald perry Offline
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Originally Posted By: oenophore
Although this thread in the Gunks Routes forum, very few locations mentioned are in the Gunks.


What and when was the last new bolt in the Gunks I wonder. And would anyone complain if at some point bolts were allowed in or on certain parts of the cliff. Perhaps some day they will just pop up by themselves without an argument. A little here and a little there until all of a sudden ...


Edited by donald perry (02/14/12 12:24 AM)
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#62566 - 02/14/12 12:32 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
oenophore Online   confused
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Registered: 09/24/01
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Although activity on Gunks.com has been rather torpid for the last year or two, there is an occasional thread that members, including me, like to jump on and post fervently. Retroscree has even suggested that this one be spread to Supertopo.com much as a burning stick in a fire is removed and carried to light another fire. But, dear reader, don't you think this thread belongs in the General Climbing forum?
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#62568 - 02/14/12 12:53 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
donald perry Offline
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Originally Posted By: oenophore
Although activity on Gunks.com has been rather torpid for the last year or two, there is an occasional thread that members, including me, like to jump on and post fervently. Retroscree has even suggested that this one be spread to Supertopo.com much as a burning stick in a fire is removed and carried to light another fire. But, dear reader, don't you think this thread belongs in the General Climbing forum?


maybe someone with higher powers could help, as on other threads
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62569 - 02/14/12 12:56 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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These are some interesting photos I found on the internet.



Chop chop chop .... chop chop chop ... chop!



... well, maybe they don't chop after all. Looks like they got the whole thing out. Now someone just has to put in some specialized epoxy cement mixed with bits of rock from the cliff and all the holes will disappear just like mine did.



Heck, what's the difference ... how about some oxygen tanks from Everest as well. Bolts oxygen tanks, what's the difference? If you can't do it you can't do it, you gotta do something right? Take the tank drill the hole what ever it takes to get to the summit. The important thing is that you can say: "I conquered!". Yea ... right.







Edited by donald perry (02/14/12 01:15 AM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62570 - 02/14/12 01:06 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Jason Kruk and Hayden Kennedy



These guys are your heroes. Some of you just don't know it yet.


Edited by donald perry (02/14/12 01:15 AM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62571 - 02/14/12 01:28 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
retroscree Offline
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Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: oenophore
But, dear reader, don't you think this thread belongs in the General Climbing forum?

What does it matter? It's the only activity in the entire forum.

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#62572 - 02/14/12 01:30 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
What would you think if I got up there, free climbing between the protections without the bolts all the way to the top of Apollo Reed?

It would be great! I'd also be kinda pointless as well as ignoring the ethics of the area, where the community has decided that it's primarily a sport climbing area.

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#62573 - 02/14/12 01:48 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Again, below is my question. If you do not want to answer it, that's fine. But to say concerns about so many bolts is a waste of time is silly.

The question was:

"If a bolt makes the climbing harder or easier what is the right answer for its placement.

The way I see it, you did not answer the question either because you don't understand it's significance or you don't care. I don't think "There is no right or wrong answer." makes any sense.

If we put a bolt on the Infinite Space roof somewhere between where you put your feet and your tie in point on your harness it would make it more easy to do the crux move to the lip. If we put that bolt somewhere past your tie in point it would make it harder.

Where should the first ascent party put their bolt?"

Already answered several times pages ago: the FA gets to decide, tempered by local ethics. It will be different in different areas. It's not something you get to decide. Talking about a bolt on Infinite Space is pointless since the FA established it without using a bolt. The lack of a bolt has not prevented the route being done in sport style ie: pre-placed gear, rehearsals, and an eventual redpoint.

Bringing up the Compressor Route and trash on Everest is tangential and serves only to dilute your inane argument.

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#62574 - 02/14/12 01:56 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
What would you think if I got up there, free climbing between the protections without the bolts all the way to the top of Apollo Reed?


It would be great! I'd also be kinda pointless as well as ignoring the ethics of the area, where the community has decided that it's primarily a sport climbing area.


So what if it is in New River. Because of the internet the world is becoming smaller and smaller. I could be the first one to do a hammerless ascent of Apollo Reed on passive protection! That sounds so backwards. I can't believe I just said that.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62575 - 02/14/12 01:59 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Again, below is my question. If you do not want to answer it, that's fine. But to say concerns about so many bolts is a waste of time is silly.

The question was:

"If a bolt makes the climbing harder or easier what is the right answer for its placement.

The way I see it, you did not answer the question either because you don't understand it's significance or you don't care. I don't think "There is no right or wrong answer." makes any sense.

If we put a bolt on the Infinite Space roof somewhere between where you put your feet and your tie in point on your harness it would make it more easy to do the crux move to the lip. If we put that bolt somewhere past your tie in point it would make it harder.

Where should the first ascent party put their bolt?"

Already answered several times pages ago: the FA gets to decide, tempered by local ethics. It will be different in different areas. It's not something you get to decide. Talking about a bolt on Infinite Space is pointless since the FA established it without using a bolt. The lack of a bolt has not prevented the route being done in sport style ie: pre-placed gear, rehearsals, and an eventual redpoint.

Bringing up the Compressor Route and trash on Everest is tangential and serves only to dilute your inane argument.


I disagree. Do you yourself think there are good and bad ways to climb?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62578 - 02/14/12 04:20 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: oenophore
Although activity on Gunks.com has been rather torpid for the last year or two, there is an occasional thread that members, including me, like to jump on and post fervently. Retroscree has even suggested that this one be spread to Supertopo.com much as a burning stick in a fire is removed and carried to light another fire. But, dear reader, don't you think this thread belongs in the General Climbing forum?


Hardly torpid for the original MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation thread which has just surpassed 40,000 views. We will post more information and documents soon.....Thanks MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#62583 - 02/14/12 05:30 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Advocacy group]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2362
Loc: Boston
I fear that gunks.com may be going the way of all message boards that have seen their time come and go. Eventually they are populated solely by loonies and special-interest/spammers.

Perhaps new threads of interest will emerge again like the green leaves as spring warms the earth. And long live the "Name That Climb" thread!

GO

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#62584 - 02/14/12 05:42 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2362
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: GOclimb
Originally Posted By: SethG
I have some sympathy for both sides in this particular argument.

Like everyone else, I get frustrated reading Don's long-winded, repetitive arguments but damn it all if he doesn't often make points I can't dismiss out of hand. He's like Don Quixote or The Fool or dare I say it The Walrus... buried in the absurdity is truth you ignore at your own peril.

I have never put up a new route. I think I can safely say I will never put up a sport route or drill a bolt on a trad route. So my opinion of drilling hardly matters.


I am not a big shot, I'm just a regular climber, but I have done FAs in five states, using whatever was the appropriate method for the line, and for the area. Some were simply topropes, some were simply bouldered, some were led ground up on gear, some were cleaned and bolted top-down sport style. Some were frightfests with multiple falls, no-fall zones, and/or blown gear, while others were super-safe clip-ups. Some were left entirely unchanged for the next person do do another "FA" up whatever line they fancied, while others were extensively cleaned.

Point is, I've been around enough to know a few things. One thing I know for sure is that Donald Perry, at least insofar as he presents himself here, is so ignorant and incoherent that trying to have any kind of discussion with him is a waste of time. Which is why I haven't bothered to respond to any of this.

The only reason why I'm replying now is because DJP is throwing out the "well you haven't done any FAs, so you don't know anything" BS.

GO


GO you wrote "... so ignorant and incoherent that trying to have any kind of discussion with him is a waste of time. Which is why I haven't bothered to respond to any of this. The only reason why I'm replying now is because DJP is throwing out the "well you haven't done any FAs, so you don't know anything" BS.".

GO, the reason I was "throwing it out" is to try to find an answer as to what is the excuse for not answering the question about bolts. Your excuse is just as lame, if not more so. The question that you and others are avoiding is a discussion and the questions. If there is already a debate, if there are already topics on this in Rock & Ice etc. than how can
*anyone* who wants to talk about it be such a waste of time?


Two reasons. Because as far as I can tell, 1 - you are not entirely mentally well, and 2 - you have zero understanding of or interest in modern climbing ethics.

I apologize for any insults you perceive in the above. I do not mean to put you down. I'm simply answering your question honestly.

GO

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#62586 - 02/14/12 08:38 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: GOclimb]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
Didnt anyone see ghostbusters, dont cross the streams!

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#62590 - 02/14/12 11:46 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: crimpy]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: crimpy
Didnt anyone see ghostbusters, dont cross the streams!

"....because of this asshole!"
"Hey! You apologize to him!!!"
"I'm sorry you're an asshole!"

[Paraphrased - too lazy to look up the actual quote.]

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#62592 - 02/15/12 12:18 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
GO, and who ever else, although I don't like being called names, anything is better then nothing. Just wanted to say thanks for commenting ... anyway.

Go, you wrote: "as far as I can tell, 1 - you are not entirely mentally well"

From don: What is *mentally well*? Does it have anything to do with staying off X rated climbs? If you know what mentally well is then go ahead and define it for us, if you can. You really stuck your foot in your mouth with that one. LOL

Go, "you have zero understanding of or interest in modern climbing ethics."

Opps sorry, your dead wrong there too. I was the first one to put them out there. Hanging on gear. Climbing between anchors. Drilling bolts. I took a lot of heat for that. Thank God it was short lived and that not everyone knows my history. I'm not proud of it.

Mentally unstable is ok, being an asshole, well, that not ok. That one I try to avoid, though I hope you appreciate my attempt to be transparent as I do yours. Well regardless, at least we are all climbers, thats really the important thing.

PS I think you need to lighten up. Maybe your getting cabin fever from spending too much time in the gym. I got on Infinite Space 5 times today and it was only 47 degrees! Where were you this past weekend? I had to solo it with a mini traxion and pull on the rope because it would not track under the hang.

PSS The reason I post so much is that I am board, no other reason ... it's fun, sorry.


Edited by donald perry (02/15/12 01:51 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62593 - 02/15/12 12:40 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Advocacy group]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Originally Posted By: oenophore
Although activity on Gunks.com has been rather torpid for the last year or two, there is an occasional thread that members, including me, like to jump on and post fervently. Retroscree has even suggested that this one be spread to Supertopo.com much as a burning stick in a fire is removed and carried to light another fire. But, dear reader, don't you think this thread belongs in the General Climbing forum?


Hardly torpid for the original MohonkPreserveNeighborsAssociation thread which has just surpassed 40,000 views. We will post more information and documents soon.....Thanks MPNA


Hits really mean nothing. I hit a lot of things.

Hit this Advocacy Individual:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

See all the hits? What does it mean?, NOTHING. Calling yourself a group is misleading [like everything you post] you are not a group.



Edited by donald perry (02/15/12 01:06 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62594 - 02/15/12 12:56 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: crimpy
Didnt anyone see ghostbusters, dont cross the streams!

"....because of this asshole!"
"Hey! You apologize to him!!!"
"I'm sorry you're an asshole!"

[Paraphrased - too lazy to look up the actual quote.]




Shhhhhhhhhhhhh ... you guys gotta stick around, there are lions tigers and bears.


Edited by donald perry (02/15/12 03:09 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62595 - 02/15/12 01:33 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey


Jennifer Aniston *43* has spent the better part of her adult life dealing with one question: Are you pregnant?

BTW, I did not make it, I was too scared.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#62596 - 02/15/12 03:17 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
AOR Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 392
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: crimpy
Didnt anyone see ghostbusters, dont cross the streams!

"....because of this asshole!"
"Hey! You apologize to him!!!"
"I'm sorry you're an asshole!"

[Paraphrased - too lazy to look up the actual quote.]


"It's the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man"

I love that line...

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#62597 - 02/15/12 04:46 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: AOR]
Dana Online   content
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Hang in there, Don. I'm glad you're still around.

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#62603 - 02/15/12 01:45 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey

Quote:

1 - you are not entirely mentally well, and 2 - you have zero understanding of or interest in modern climbing ethics.
GO


GO!, it's 1981 and its 24 degrees in January, Jim Munson climbs up stupid crack with his girlfriend Sue Krawitz belaying him, his fingers freeze, he is in excruciating pain, falls off, the veins learn to open up, the blood pumps through, he sends the climb, his hands are on fire!, and it's not a big deal.

A child gets up out of his sleeping bag at 5:00 AM and 8 degrees in the shade. It's 10 degrees now, his snots freeze in his noise, he climbs up to Millbrook, he has to take his pants off because he is sweating so much his legs will not move in his pants, he gets to the cliff as the sun comes up over the horizon and that star is nothing but brilliant! Its summer time again and he explains: "White rock and empty space as far as the eye can see!"
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62606 - 02/15/12 01:47 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Global warming, 50 degree days, and the Gunks are empty.

Forecast of rain 20%, the weatherman covers his ass, the weather station gets more hits, they make more money, it does not rain and its above freezing, and it did not rain *anywhere* and the Gunks are empty.

Forecast of rain 80%, the weatherman covers his ass, the weather station gets more hits, they make more money, it does not rain and its above freezing, but it did rain *somewhere not here* but the Gunks are empty.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62609 - 02/15/12 01:54 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Forecast of rain, it rains, drive home 2 hours, it stops raining, we drive back AGAIN, we climb for 10 hours.

Where are all the wimps?, resting their bolts, waiting till the weather outside synchronizes with the gym dreaming at night of their video games.

An old man sits lays on his bed with a bad hip beaten away from overuse. One day he gets up and eats real food and drinks real water, he can't find a climbing partner, he hobbles down to a frozen New River with his cane and climbs Apollo Reed with passive protection. He is a Hero, He knows it for sure, but he is only a hero in his own mind. In reality He is a delusional old man.



_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62610 - 02/15/12 02:52 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
passive pro like the bolts and the stick clip? aid climbing doesn't count.

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#62611 - 02/15/12 03:24 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Forecast of rain 20%, the weatherman covers his ass, the weather station gets more hits, they make more money,...

Forecast of rain 80%, the weatherman covers his ass, the weather station gets more hits, they make more money, it does not rain and its above freezing, but it did rain *somewhere not here*...

Now you've demonstrated that you don't know how weather forecasting works.

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#62612 - 02/15/12 03:33 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62613 - 02/15/12 03:33 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: retroscree]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Too many drugs.... or not enough? hard to say.. hard to say..

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#62614 - 02/15/12 04:54 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
?

Apparently in response to:
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Forecast of rain 20%, the weatherman covers his ass, the weather station gets more hits, they make more money,...

Forecast of rain 80%, the weatherman covers his ass, the weather station gets more hits, they make more money, it does not rain and its above freezing, but it did rain *somewhere not here*...

Now you've demonstrated that you don't know how weather forecasting works.

You're implying that weathermen are merely covering their ass when they give a POP percentage, with the goal of increasing hits on their site and making more money and that it often doesn't rain. At least that's what your rambling seems to suggest.

Weather forecasting doesn't work that way. In particular there appears to be a basic misunderstanding of what the POP means.

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#62617 - 02/15/12 07:53 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
?

Apparently in response to:
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Forecast of rain 20%, the weatherman covers his ass, the weather station gets more hits, they make more money,...

Forecast of rain 80%, the weatherman covers his ass, the weather station gets more hits, they make more money, it does not rain and its above freezing, but it did rain *somewhere not here*...

Now you've demonstrated that you don't know how weather forecasting works.

You're implying that weathermen are merely covering their ass when they give a POP percentage, with the goal of increasing hits on their site and making more money and that it often doesn't rain. At least that's what your rambling seems to suggest.

Weather forecasting doesn't work that way. In particular there appears to be a basic misunderstanding of what the POP means.


Well, I can assure you of this. I work outside all year round. And the first rule of the day is to completely ignore all the weather forecasts. You can look at the radar, and if it raining hard in PA then chances are you are doomed. The weather predominantly moves up from the South West. The buildings here are worn more on their South West sides.

For the most part the weather forecasts are only right less than 50% of the time. I have learned to be able to predict the weather better then they can! Now, when you are wrong 50% of the time, tell me, what is the point of heeding forecasts? We go out there and look and watch and see what's happening. If I think it will work we go and take our chances, and I am right most of the time my workers are telling me they are not going to work in the rain. When they stay behind I call them from the job and tell them to get on the bus or they can take the rest of the week off. If it rains we wait and see if it stops, sometimes there is a short shower, or some dark clouds. But the weather forecasts are all a very big joke. All month long they can come up with various forecasts for rain with 100% probability and they can be wrong all month long.

Pay more attention to the weather forecasts and you will see that I am right. If it does not look like rain and there is very little wind then you are probably ok. I will give you some examples as I come across them.

Yesterday there was a forecast for rain. I ignored the forecast, drove up from NJ, and they were wrong, I was right, I climbed all day.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62618 - 02/15/12 08:22 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Too many drugs.... or not enough? hard to say.. hard to say..


Not enough. If I get up Apollo Reed on passive protection [and don't worry I will] will I have done a first accent? Yes most certainly, I will not have used aid as a means to circumvent any move on Apollo Reed, nor artificial protection to protect myself on any move on Apollo Reed. Maybe I would have to put out my own guide on what siege [sport] climbs have gone trad, not chopping the bolts of course. Hopefully someday the barbarians will figure this out on their own.

The beautiful thing about this kind of a new free climb is you can't chop it. It will stay there forever like the very rock itself-----whereas that first ascent of Porter Jarrard is in jeopardy. It's all been fabricated through unnatural means; Not an ascent of a new climb but the ascent of artificial means.


Edited by donald perry (02/15/12 09:22 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62619 - 02/15/12 08:53 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
nothing for nothing Jake, Donald with his bad hip would run circles around you.
_________________________
John Okner Photography

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#62620 - 02/15/12 09:17 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: talus]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: talus
nothing for nothing Jake, Donald with his bad hip would run circles around you.


i don't care if he climbs harder than daniel woods.. he is still out of his fucking mind.

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#62621 - 02/15/12 09:56 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
off topic


Edited by donald perry (02/16/12 01:45 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62622 - 02/15/12 09:59 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
i don't care if he climbs harder than daniel woods.. he is still out of his fucking mind.


at least he's not using gratuitous language
_________________________
John Okner Photography

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#62623 - 02/15/12 10:27 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: talus]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241

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#62624 - 02/15/12 10:57 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5981
Loc: 212 land
Alas, I regret participating in this thread.
MODERATOR,WHERE ARE YOU?
_________________________

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#62625 - 02/15/12 11:19 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Why are you calling for the mod? This is the only thing interesting going on here. Make that "...the only thing going on here." You do have the option of not reading the thread.

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#62626 - 02/15/12 11:28 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA8a5qibUJU
Zelda Violin Duet- Lindsey Stirling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA4G28fM_eI
There is a violin in this one about the birdman of Karakoram.

http://vimeo.com/15295969
Russa trip to Karakoram

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C0z-blqaI4
USSR trip to Karakoram

Awesome! This place is like a gigantic park, there is a lot more there then just K2 and Nanga Parbat and Nameless Towers. Hay, just climb anything! You don't want to go there though, its REALLY insane, as anyone will tell you.
http://dai.ly/nI5RHt


I am planning on going here in a few weeks, to Hushe. However, I may not get out of the car. I am only bringing my chalk bag. I am going by myself, its cheep.


Edited by donald perry (02/16/12 01:19 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62627 - 02/15/12 11:39 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241

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#62629 - 02/16/12 12:54 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: oenophore
Alas, I regret participating in this thread.
MODERATOR,WHERE ARE YOU?


In case of moderator interruption and banning continue the thread here if you feel like it:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/...Climbing-Ethics

I have watched it happen. I think you can say what ever you want and no one cares on supertopo.

And you two guys, stop cursing, I would rather you not get banned! I will tell you a secret. Cursing and name calling does not prove anything. It does not define anything, it is just words. When you curse someone you loose your chance to show you have anything important to say. People are just going to assume you are drinking, it does not make you look important.

And btw, we am staying on topic, somewhat. There is no thread that stays on topic 100%. That's easy to prove.


Edited by donald perry (02/16/12 01:34 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62630 - 02/16/12 01:39 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
passive pro like the bolts and the stick clip? aid climbing doesn't count.


The free pictures are next, just wait a little while. I am not going to chop the bolts but I will name the route as any first ascent party would.

No stick clipping and no bolts only passive protection, I promise, I'm no barbarian.


Edited by donald perry (02/16/12 01:43 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62631 - 02/16/12 02:23 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
.


Edited by jakedatc (02/17/12 02:07 AM)

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#62632 - 02/16/12 03:21 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Anyone here want to see a throwdown match between Donald and Jake in the Uberfall. I claim the rack of the loser!!

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#62633 - 02/16/12 03:41 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: RangerRob]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
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This isn't about ability.

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#62634 - 02/16/12 03:55 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
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Originally Posted By: jakedatc
This isn't about ability.


Ok, what is it about? What got you so steamed? He was quite clear tht he was arguing for a reduction in bolting, not eliminating them, and suggesting that toproping single pitches rather than leading using bolts for pro was a valid ethic for minimizing climber impact. Its an unusual position, given the lead ethic thats dominated from the earliest days, but its worth discussing, surely. I didn't get that he's arguing for retrobolting, either, which generally tends to get folks blood up. Any discussion of adding bolts was hypothetical. And yes, DP could use an editor.

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#62635 - 02/16/12 04:20 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
A friend says you should do Cell Block Six at RRG on gear instead. Says it would be a more natural trad route. apparently you have to do a dyno with a #4 camalot on your harness though..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq8SliE2PIQ

Yea, thanks Jake, that looks possible, they got bolts practically right next to cam placements in the video. I think I might be able to quickly free the whole climb between the placements if the majority of the bolts were drilled unnecessary.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62636 - 02/16/12 04:26 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: ianmanger]
jakedatc Offline
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How would top roping reduce impact? If anything it could increase impact because there would now need to be trails to the top of the cliff, damage to soil,trees etc on top of the cliff, danger of getting to tops of cliffs that are really not accessible and could lead to more accidents.

Sport climbing has been around for decades now and has led to insane advancements in trad climbing as well. as well as bouldering. You think Tommy Caldwell, Alex Honnold, Brian kim (who put up a new 13 at the gunks last year), etc would be doing 13+ free climbs up El Cap aid routes without sport routes?

RRG, Rumney, Rifle, Smith rock, and Maple would be tiny or non existent without sport climbing. Much of which cannot be top roped safely.

Developers of these crags decided that sport climbing was the best route for the area. Mostly due to the rock type not taking gear. Who is Donald to say that only people who can climb 45 degree roofs should be allowed to lead a bolted route? what about slightly overhanging routes with trees behind them.. how many directionals are allowed?

If he can find some FA's at any of these crags he can do what he wants but TRAD climbers started the FA decides thing so you can't pick and choose.

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#62637 - 02/16/12 04:30 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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I retrobolted Scary Area around 30 years ago. I almost cratered on it because of its deceptive nature. Later I went back and hammered conglomerate rocks back into the holes. I can't find the holes anymore and neither could Romano.


Edited by donald perry (02/16/12 04:34 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62638 - 02/16/12 04:41 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
jakedatc Offline
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Except that it is Muir Valley.... at a sport crag. FA can do what he wants. you could have FA'd it.. 07. not too long ago. oh well

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#62640 - 02/16/12 04:46 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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"How would top roping reduce impact? If anything it could increase impact because there would now need to be trails to the top of the cliff, damage to soil,trees etc on top of the cliff, danger of getting to tops of cliffs that are really not accessible and could lead to more accidents."

What about if you left a small diameter or used rope on it? You could then use that rope to temporary pull your own rope through on it up through the top anchors with a 1" diameter ring to prevent it from getting snagged.

The rope would cost less than the bolts and the bits and take less time as well.

You would not have to have a rope on every climb.

That might eliminate around 23 bolts on three climbs if they were close enough together. Granted, you would not want to do it everywhere, but I can think of some places where it would work quite well.

There is no perfect solution, there may only be better ones.



Edited by donald perry (02/16/12 05:22 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62641 - 02/16/12 04:51 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
jakedatc Offline
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Edited by jakedatc (02/17/12 02:06 AM)

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#62642 - 02/16/12 02:02 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
OK, now we're back having an actual debate, rather than posting pictures of violins. So I appreciate your response.



Originally Posted By: jakedatc
How would top roping reduce impact? If anything it could increase impact because there would now need to be trails to the top of the cliff, damage to soil,trees etc on top of the cliff, danger of getting to tops of cliffs that are really not accessible and could lead to more accidents.

yes. never suggested it was foolproof, and DP's idea for an 'outdoor gym' sucks too.



Originally Posted By: jakedatc

Sport climbing has been around for decades now and has led to insane advancements in trad climbing as well. as well as bouldering. You think Tommy Caldwell, Alex Honnold, Brian kim (who put up a new 13 at the gunks last year), etc would be doing 13+ free climbs up El Cap aid routes without sport routes?

OK, just for argument's sake I'm going to say 'so what'..plenty of hard routes can be toproped. I wasn't around for the Gunks bolt wars but Swain's intro which you can find online suggests that this was the position of the bolt 'status quo' crowd. Its entirely legit and the prevailing ethic at our crag.


Originally Posted By: jakedatc

RRG, Rumney, Rifle, Smith rock, and Maple would be tiny or non existent without sport climbing. Much of which cannot be top roped safely.


Again, "so what?" So that everything can be climbed? Again, I don't have a position on this, I'm just asking the question. I mocked Seth about the fact that DP 'made him think' the other day but its a perfectly reasonable question. So Seth, sorry about that.


Quote:

If he can find some FA's at any of these crags he can do what he wants but TRAD climbers started the FA decides thing so you can't pick and choose.


Well yes you can and this is the center of the misunderstanding and why DP and you won't find agreement.
Imagine a crag where you can't use bolts, gear or chalk and you have the Elbsandstein. DP is just at one edge of the ethics debate. If he owned a crag and could control development, his ethic would prevail. So the repeated questions about the necessity of bolts at existing crags go to the heart of that. How does bolting change a climb? Again its a good question. Tho amid the streams of consciousness these are somewhat hard to pin down. I happen to like Faulkner, which helps. So again I'm not sure why you are so steamed.

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#62643 - 02/16/12 02:30 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Jake Date: "How would top roping reduce impact? If anything it could increase impact because there would now need to be trails to the top of the cliff, damage to soil,trees etc on top of the cliff, danger of getting to tops of cliffs that are really not accessible and could lead to more accidents."


It is possible to build heavy stable stepping stones over to the top of each climb.

These ideas are not practical in every place, but in a lot of places they are. It depends on where it is. If the rock is going to look like Swiss, like the wall on page 7 then it is better to build a trail along the edge of the cliff out of heavy stepping stone. In most places it would work, unless it is very steep with dirt and there are loose rocks all over the top.

I am not talking about immediate change, I am talking about in future and what should be more practical.


Edited by donald perry (02/16/12 02:45 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62644 - 02/16/12 02:43 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
talus Offline
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#62645 - 02/16/12 03:31 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: talus]
jakedatc Offline
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Posts: 241
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Edited by jakedatc (02/17/12 02:06 AM)

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#62646 - 02/16/12 03:44 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: talus]
chip Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2679
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Now that's pretty darn funny, Talus!

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#62647 - 02/16/12 03:52 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
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Well, you haven't answered my question about why you are so steamed. If this is one of DP's assertions, I'm not planning to answer it or defend it, (just as I'm not going to touch the 'humanity as disease' one) you should take it up with him. Gently. I'm just defending his right to ask questions he's interested in without cussing him out or questioning his mental state. Not that he needs my help.

Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Ian you didn't answer why people weren't allowed to lead climb anything less steep than a 45 degree roof. Apparently you just wake up and can lead .12+ roof?


Originally Posted By: jakedatc


I have read nothing that shows that Don's ideas of top roping, stone trails up cliff sides, hanging ropes make ANY sense at all in the real world.


That may be true, but now we're actually discussing it, Don is getting community perspective on his vision of cutting down on bolts and how it might work in practice. As you point out, it has problems. Again, no cussing required.

Originally Posted By: jakedatc

Luckily the majority of the world has some common sense and has developed areas with their own local ethics that works with the climbing community and rock features. Some like RRG and NRG with a very good balance of trad and sport.


No argument with that. Hypothetically, tho, would you be in favor of opening up the Gunks to bolting? Assuming even more hypothetically that the community/Preserve would agree with you and permit you to go ahead? If not, why not?

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#62648 - 02/16/12 04:12 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: ianmanger]
jakedatc Offline
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No the gunks have a historical traditional ethic that is well managed. I DO think some places could use a bolted anchor but the specific routes slip my mind at the moment.

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#62649 - 02/16/12 04:35 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
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Fair enough, just thought I'd ask. Be safe out there. ian

Originally Posted By: jakedatc
No the gunks have a historical traditional ethic that is well managed. I DO think some places could use a bolted anchor but the specific routes slip my mind at the moment.

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#62650 - 02/16/12 04:46 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: ianmanger]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
OK, now we're back having an actual debate, rather than posting pictures of violins.

Let's take the campfire approach to the violence.


(this is me, in 1998 or so)

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#62651 - 02/16/12 06:32 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Julie]
Dana Online   content
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Registered: 07/13/00
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Is that Joe Strummer?

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#62652 - 02/16/12 06:46 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: ianmanger]
GOclimb Offline
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Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2362
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
This isn't about ability.


Ok, what is it about? What got you so steamed? He was quite clear tht he was arguing for a reduction in bolting, not eliminating them, and suggesting that toproping single pitches rather than leading using bolts for pro was a valid ethic for minimizing climber impact. Its an unusual position, given the lead ethic thats dominated from the earliest days, but its worth discussing, surely. I didn't get that he's arguing for retrobolting, either, which generally tends to get folks blood up. Any discussion of adding bolts was hypothetical. And yes, DP could use an editor.


Are you volunteering for the position? Because if so, I'd be happy to discuss with him, through you, the merits of the above, or any other positions you interpret DJP to have.

Cheers!

GO

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#62653 - 02/16/12 07:30 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Dana]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
It's hard to get through to the gym climber mentality. all they do is think about bolted climbs, bouldering w/out a t-shirt on, during winter or who set the pink route in the gym and how they should set more crappy routes. So glad I learned how climb on Vedauwoo off widths. Follow the crack not the tape.
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#62654 - 02/16/12 08:25 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Dana]
yorick Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: hamlet\'s hand
Originally Posted By: Dana
Is that Joe Strummer?


Yeah, right...

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID1758/images/24012848-24012850-large.jpg
_________________________
Shongum ain\'t Indian,
it\'s Shawank-unk.

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#62655 - 02/16/12 08:34 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: talus]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: talus
It's hard to get through to the gym climber mentality. all they do is think about bolted climbs, bouldering w/out a t-shirt on, during winter or who set the pink route in the gym and how they should set more crappy routes. So glad I learned how climb on Vedauwoo off widths. Follow the crack not the tape.


*ignored* bye bye

btw trad spray is SO RAD!

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#62656 - 02/16/12 09:04 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
.

.


Edited by jakedatc (02/17/12 02:05 AM)

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#62657 - 02/16/12 09:29 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: jakedatc

*ignored* bye bye

btw trad spray is SO RAD!


well there goes my good nights sleep!

but you just un ignored me to see what i wrote
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#62658 - 02/16/12 09:34 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
.


Edited by jakedatc (02/17/12 02:05 AM)

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#62660 - 02/16/12 10:01 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: GOclimb]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319


Originally Posted By: GOclimb


Are you volunteering for the position?

GO
Sorry.

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#62661 - 02/16/12 10:03 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: ianmanger]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Hey, I'm an Enthusiast. Thats like the 3rd or 4th circle of Hell, right?

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#62662 - 02/16/12 10:13 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259

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#62663 - 02/16/12 10:16 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: talus]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
.


Edited by jakedatc (02/17/12 02:04 AM)

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#62665 - 02/16/12 10:54 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
jakedatc Offline
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Posts: 241
Oh and i have found out that Apollo Reed has already been done on trad gear. no FA for you Donald sorry.

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#62666 - 02/16/12 11:35 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
that wasn't the question.


silly me. fo realz this time. in the order you asked: 5.3+, 5.6 I forgot my chalk bag that day, & 5.12 sport in the gym.

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#62667 - 02/17/12 12:17 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Actually, when I'm gone, I'm 100% certain I won't give a shit what anyone does.



Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Here is another thought. All of the old crusty trad climbers are going to be gone eventually. The way that they treat the new generation coming up is probably going to see the OPPOSITE results that they hope for.

When the FA is no longer around to ask permission to retrobolt something. if that guy was a dick do you think they will have any remorse for bolting the shit out of it? probably not. But if they were cool and treated people well then maybe they'd leave it alone and respect their position.

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#62668 - 02/17/12 12:21 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: talus]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
.


Edited by jakedatc (02/17/12 02:04 AM)

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#62669 - 02/17/12 12:41 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Someone please give Jake a sedative before he pops a vessel in his cranium and goes all strokey on us.

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#62670 - 02/17/12 12:54 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: RangerRob]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
.


Edited by jakedatc (02/17/12 02:05 AM)

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#62671 - 02/17/12 01:09 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: RangerRob]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
Someone please give Jake a sedative before he pops a vessel in his cranium and goes all strokey on us.

OMG we've been trolled!
Don and Jake are the same person!!!!!!

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#62672 - 02/17/12 01:18 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Here is another thought. All of the old crusty trad climbers are going to be gone eventually. The way that they treat the new generation coming up is probably going to see the OPPOSITE results that they hope for.

When the FA is no longer around to ask permission to retrobolt something. if that guy was a dick do you think they will have any remorse for bolting the shit out of it? probably not. But if they were cool and treated people well then maybe they'd leave it alone and respect their position.


That is not only ad hominem argument but an ad hominem apporch to life. The point should be about how to treat the rock, no joke.





Edited by donald perry (02/17/12 01:40 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62673 - 02/17/12 01:22 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
donald perry Offline
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Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
Oh and i have found out that Apollo Reed has already been done on trad gear. no FA for you Donald sorry.


I just wanted to prove it was possible. I am glad it has been done already, so now I just top rope it instead. I don't like that move going over the roof, I don't think it is good for my hip joint.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62674 - 02/17/12 01:26 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: jakedatc
I'm perfectly fine Rob. thanks though. I just can't see why Anonymous sprayer of wide crack radness can't post his hardest redpoint from his glorious trad crag of awesome. though now i believe he'll just look on Mtn project and lie.


yeah real anonymous click on the tab below. total gym mentality on what's your hardest route. stick to the dead point magazine forums.
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#62676 - 02/17/12 01:37 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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SPAM


Edited by donald perry (02/17/12 01:33 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62677 - 02/17/12 01:49 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: talus]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
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.

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#62681 - 02/17/12 02:12 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
jakedatc Offline
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anyway, i was glad we were getting back to talking about the topic but after PM's with threatening undertones i'm out.

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#62685 - 02/17/12 01:15 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: jakedatc]
AOR Offline
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Registered: 08/27/04
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You do know of course that if this continues, the good Doctor is going to show up. Man, the barnyard will be filled with flying feathers then!!! grin

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#62686 - 02/17/12 01:27 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: oenophore]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
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SPAM

Originally Posted By: oenophore
Alas, I regret participating in this thread.
MODERATOR,WHERE ARE YOU?


NEW RULE. FROM NOW ON whenever you post off topic, put "SPAM" as the first word one space apart from the rest of what ever you have to say.

This way 1.) We can all be self aware of when the thread is being spamed. 2.) There can be an argument of any post is spam or not. 3.) It will be more understood if the moderator should take action. 4.) Hopefully someday there will be an option where spam posts can delete themselves after 3 days. 5.) The thread will stop being spamed so much. 6.) We won't need to call for a moderator to waste his time on every other post.


Edited by donald perry (02/17/12 01:31 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62687 - 02/17/12 01:32 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
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SPAM

This is example of spam.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62689 - 02/17/12 05:30 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2362
Loc: Boston
Hey, what's with all the deleted posts? Sheesh, that's no fun!

Originally Posted By: ianmanger


Originally Posted By: GOclimb


Are you volunteering for the position?

GO
Sorry.


Yeah, I didn't think so. I knew that you knew you were overstating your position when you said "He was quite clear that..."

LOL!

GO

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#62690 - 02/17/12 05:47 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: GOclimb]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Ha, nice try. Read the earlier exchanges with jake..

Originally Posted By: GOclimb
Hey, what's with all the deleted posts? Sheesh, that's no fun!

Originally Posted By: ianmanger


Originally Posted By: GOclimb


Are you volunteering for the position?

GO
Sorry.


Yeah, I didn't think so. I knew that you knew you were overstating your position when you said "He was quite clear that..."

LOL!

GO

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#62691 - 02/17/12 09:26 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: ianmanger]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2362
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
Ha, nice try. Read the earlier exchanges with jake..


What? I thought "Sorry" meant "sorry, not interested".

GO

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#62692 - 02/18/12 01:57 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: GOclimb]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Who here loves spam?


Edited by donald perry (02/18/12 04:32 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62693 - 02/18/12 02:34 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Actually I don't understand what someone's hardest redpoint in a numerical grading system has to do with thei badassness. I'm sure we could all name dozens, if not hundreds of examples of routes that are gnarly, but not because of the grade. Heinous runouts, awkward climbing, objectively hazardous situations....all of these things can be used to measure a routes badassness. The numerical grade is actually a fairly weak indicator of badassness.

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#62694 - 02/18/12 04:29 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: RangerRob]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Tough Shift is a climb, that at the time I tried it, I never felt like I wanted to commit myself to it. I remember it being out of control. I suppose if I were to resolve myself to solo it, that would make things a lot more simple. Looking for protection up there is a project, as I remember it, and difficult to down climb. And I refuse to just "go for it" leading on a climb like that, too confusing.


Edited by donald perry (02/18/12 04:34 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62700 - 02/19/12 12:34 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Who here loves spam?


Why, I love Spam.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8huXkSaL7o

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#62701 - 02/19/12 01:44 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Rickster]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
never mind.


Edited by donald perry (02/20/12 01:49 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62702 - 02/19/12 05:55 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: donald perry]
drkodos Offline
addict

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 674
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....Same as it ever was....
_________________________

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#62703 - 02/19/12 05:58 AM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: drkodos]
drkodos Offline
addict

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 674
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
have you people not realized yet that climbing and internet go together like bleach and ammonia?

Good luck and may the winds of change catch the sails of your own personal Beagle on your voyages of discovery and evolution...and maybe one day, even those knuckle scrapes could heal once you stop dragging them everywhere you go.

If the shoe fits, wear it. Wash, rinse and repeat as needed until the water runs clear.
_________________________

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#62706 - 02/19/12 03:24 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: drkodos]
Ralph Offline
member

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 142
Welcome back, Dr.
Dr.'s Ethos

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#62723 - 02/20/12 04:37 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: Ralph]
chip Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2679
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Muppets rock!

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#62741 - 02/20/12 08:50 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: chip]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2362
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: chip
Muppets rock!


Is that anywhere near Fraggle Rock?

GO

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#62742 - 02/20/12 08:53 PM Re: New Routes And Climbing Ethics [Re: GOclimb]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
I heard the climbing isn't good on Muppets Rock. All the holds feel like felt.

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