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#62827 - 02/29/12 04:51 PM Millbrook Rap tree
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I was out and about yesterday, and saw that the big white pine used to rap down over Westward Ha! is decidedly...unhealthy. Most of it's top has died and there are only 3 or 4 lateral branches with live needles on them. I wouldn't expect this crucial anchor tree to last through the year 2012. Which begs the question...what will replace it?

RR

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#62831 - 02/29/12 09:41 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: RangerRob]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
A pair of bolts with chains and Mussey hooks.

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#62833 - 02/29/12 11:51 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
rg@ofmc Offline
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Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Yeah, I noticed this last summer. I think the tree will be good for a while after it is dead, but of course you wouldn't want to find out the hard way that it is no good.

As for rapping down to the Death Ledge, there are scores of natural options. In keeping with the spirit of the place, just go out and find one if you don't already know a few. In addition to many excellent trees, one can set up bomber gear anchors and remove them on the way out.

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#62839 - 03/01/12 03:25 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: rg@ofmc]
RangerRob Offline
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Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Dammit Rich, there you go defusing another potential great controversy!

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#62840 - 03/01/12 03:30 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: RangerRob]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
What about an elaborate rock staircase?

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#62841 - 03/01/12 02:43 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: jakedatc]
whatthegunks Offline
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Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 134
Loc: High Falls, NY
This majestic tree has been on track to the other side for two years now. It's a long way from getting blown over and sent into the talus field below, but time will come. I support RG's idea about making an anchor to rap and then grabbing it on the way out, no need for Millbrook to come under the gun.

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#62842 - 03/01/12 02:57 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: whatthegunks]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
I know! A via ferrata:


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#62846 - 03/01/12 07:47 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
RangerRob Offline
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Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I'm actually totally with you you and Rich on this Joe. Super easy to build an anchor there, or most sections of the cliff acually

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#62848 - 03/01/12 08:17 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: RangerRob]
retroscree Offline
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Originally Posted By: RangerRob
I'm actually totally with you you and Rich on this Joe. Super easy to build an anchor there, or most sections of the cliff acually

Which is fine if you are OK with leaving an unattended anchor and $$ gear a few minutes of easy hiking from a lake that attracts a lot of people who are mostly non-climbers.

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#62849 - 03/01/12 08:18 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
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Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
I'm actually totally with you you and Rich on this Joe. Super easy to build an anchor there, or most sections of the cliff acually

Which is fine if you are OK with leaving an unattended anchor and $$ gear a few minutes of easy hiking from a lake that attracts a lot of people who are mostly non-climbers.


i never had a problem
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#62852 - 03/01/12 08:27 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: talus]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Nor have I

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#62853 - 03/01/12 08:27 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: talus]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
agreed. the problem is more likely to be other climbers ("Dude, bootie!")
you also have to be pretty determined to get to the actual cliff edge, even at the high point, which few non-climbers are.

Originally Posted By: talus
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
I'm actually totally with you you and Rich on this Joe. Super easy to build an anchor there, or most sections of the cliff acually

Which is fine if you are OK with leaving an unattended anchor and $$ gear a few minutes of easy hiking from a lake that attracts a lot of people who are mostly non-climbers.


i never had a problem

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#62857 - 03/02/12 05:23 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: talus]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Traverse over starting from the North or take an extra rope. This way you can always go up or traverse off.


Edited by donald perry (03/02/12 05:24 AM)
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#62862 - 03/02/12 02:57 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
LarE Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 45
Plant new tree. Wait 30 years. Rappel.

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#62863 - 03/02/12 03:17 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: LarE]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
A bolted anchor would be far more convenient and the least obtrusive.

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#62864 - 03/02/12 04:47 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
Rickster Online   content
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Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 816
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
On the other hand a ratty, evil looking rap anchor would be just the thing when combined with Millbrook's resident population of snakes, slim creatures, lions, tigers and bears oh my, to repell future hordes.

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#62865 - 03/02/12 04:59 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: rg@ofmc]
Mim Online   content
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Registered: 01/27/00
Posts: 996
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Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
one can set up bomber gear anchors and remove them on the way out.


The majestic rap tree can be backed up with gear. The gear is not visible from hikers. Any climber that's (fill in the blanks) to steal that gear deserves (fill in the blank).

There are also two trees to rap off from about 50' on each side of the old tree...
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#62867 - 03/02/12 08:04 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
rg@ofmc Offline
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Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: retroscree

Which is fine if you are OK with leaving an unattended anchor and $$ gear a few minutes of easy hiking from a lake that attracts a lot of people who are mostly non-climbers.


A few minutes? It's not even a few minutes for a fit bicyclist, much less the typical tourist, who will probably need an hour or more. In any case, it is exceptionally rare for the hikers to leave the trail and bushwack down to the cliff edge (I would have said never, but I suppose there must be some examples.) If they did make their way to the climber's trail along the cliff edge, they will absolutely never venture over the edge to any of the places one would set up gear anchors.

Over the years, rappel lines have been left at the cliff edge while parties were climbing below and have never been disturbed either. So the idea that some walker will steal gear left as an anchor on the top is just not an issue.

There is absolutely no access problem whatsoever at Millbrook if the standard rap tree becomes unusable, and rap bolts at Millbrook, in addition to being totally unnecessary, would be utterly contrary to everything the cliff has come to represent.

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#62868 - 03/02/12 08:19 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: retroscree
A bolted anchor would be far more convenient and the least obtrusive.



Post a picture and establish a tree further north and south instead of the one now missing in the middle?

Rap down to the base of your climb and jummar or climb back up?

Put a bolt and either Rich or I will want to unscrew it for fear that they could multiply under the same brand of thinking?

Don't watch this video, if you do the damn song might get stuck in your head. That's for sure ... don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbCEGGSQ-aY


Edited by donald perry (03/02/12 08:30 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62869 - 03/02/12 08:33 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Put a bolt and either Rich or I will want to unscrew it for fear that they could multiply under the same brand of thinking?


put me on that list
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#62871 - 03/02/12 10:33 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: talus]
RangerRob Offline
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Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I agree, no bolt anchor either! What would come next, a road right to the top of the......oh wait, nevermind.

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#62881 - 03/03/12 10:17 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: RangerRob]
tradjunkie Offline
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Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 359
Why dont't we all each chip in $300 or so? Then we could chopper the tree out, replant it in a ball with a few hundred pounds of fertilizer, have some local gurus try to restore its chakra, and then we could chopper it back to where it was?

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#62882 - 03/04/12 12:05 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: tradjunkie]
rg@ofmc Offline
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Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I'm trying to decide whether to chip in the bucks or, more appealing, declare myself the local chakra restoration guru, understanding that the fee for the psychic effort involved in such a restoration project would be considerable.

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#62883 - 03/04/12 01:52 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: rg@ofmc]
Lucander Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
+ 1 for RG's guru-ness. He's a tenured professor at a prestigious institution and climbed harder in 1969 than most do in 2012, the man know how to do things.

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#62884 - 03/04/12 05:09 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Lucander]
Julie Offline
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Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2082
Loc: SoCal
I think bolts at MB would attract more problems (stranded newbies? ) than they would solve. The spirit is of a remote-r cliff where self sufficiency is the game.

We need to start a Faculty club, now that I'm eligible smile.

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#62885 - 03/04/12 03:47 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: tradjunkie]
oenophore Offline
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Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5934
Loc: 212 land
Chakra as metaphor? Read about them here.
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#62886 - 03/04/12 03:49 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Julie]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
A gear anchor isnt likely to be found by anyone, but if it were it would likely be by a climber. If youre worried about a climber taking it as booty, put a tag on it. Something like:

"This is our rap anchor for today DATE, assuming you need one use it, dont take it.

Thanks."

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#62889 - 03/05/12 01:39 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Mark Heyman]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Look, if you really want an anchor there so much so that you want to put a bolt, why don't you save yourself some trouble and time and run a stainless or galvanized steel cable off another tree or rock back in the woods. Yea, and take a rubber hose on it too. You can inspect a cable but anyone can crazy glue a bolt to the wall. In other words, there is no disadvantage to using a cable. All you need to know is how long to make the cable, cut it, and put the hose and six clamps on it, and don't saddle a dead horse. It should take you no longer than 5 minutes to install it, less time than it took me to write this post. Hopefully no one will trip over it and fall off the cliff, if they do it is your fault.


Edited by donald perry (03/05/12 01:51 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62890 - 03/05/12 01:33 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
RangerRob Offline
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Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
It took you 5 minutes to compose that drivel?

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#62891 - 03/05/12 02:24 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Wait, you're the chain fairy?

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Look, if you really want an anchor there so much so that you want to put a bolt, why don't you save yourself some trouble and time and run a stainless or galvanized steel cable off another tree or rock back in the woods. Yea, and take a rubber hose on it too. You can inspect a cable but anyone can crazy glue a bolt to the wall. In other words, there is no disadvantage to using a cable. All you need to know is how long to make the cable, cut it, and put the hose and six clamps on it, and don't saddle a dead horse. It should take you no longer than 5 minutes to install it, less time than it took me to write this post. Hopefully no one will trip over it and fall off the cliff, if they do it is your fault.

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#62894 - 03/05/12 02:56 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: ianmanger]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
Wait, you're the chain fairy?

Yeah, the bolt suggestion was obviously devil's advocacy, but it points up an interesting Gunks dilemma. People will get all twisted about an unobtrusive pair of bolts, yet seem willing to put up with this crap:

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Look, if you really want an anchor there so much so that you want to put a bolt, why don't you save yourself some trouble and time and run a stainless or galvanized steel cable off another tree or rock back in the woods. Yea, and take a rubber hose on it too. You can inspect a cable but anyone can crazy glue a bolt to the wall. In other words, there is no disadvantage to using a cable. All you need to know is how long to make the cable, cut it, and put the hose and six clamps on it, and don't saddle a dead horse. It should take you no longer than 5 minutes to install it, less time than it took me to write this post. Hopefully no one will trip over it and fall off the cliff, if they do it is your fault.


...and all the other convenience anchors made of shitty nuts, ancient pins, and multiple hunks of old webbing. Fixed anchors are fixed anchors - it doesn't matter what they are made from.

If a rappel tree is dieing, there's good chance it's from soil compaction at its base from climber foot traffic. Although it's probably too late for this tree, if you really want to save the tree, loosen the soil, aerate it, and put a little boardwalk around it - make sure the boardwalk extends to edge of the tree's canopy.

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#62895 - 03/05/12 03:26 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
But he is obsessively paranoid of bolts..

sunfaded tat around a dead tree is so much more bomber than solid bolts placed correctly :eye roll:

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#62896 - 03/05/12 03:52 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: jakedatc]
whatthegunks Offline
member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 134
Loc: High Falls, NY
Stay away from Millbrook, Om, too scary, Om, ticks, loose rock and lichen, Ommm........

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#62898 - 03/05/12 04:39 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: whatthegunks]
rg@ofmc Offline
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Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I for one am just as opposed to cables as to bolts. Frankly, there is absolutely no reason at Millbrook to leave anything at the top, and going forward I would hope that there would be no traces of any top anchors anywhere. There is no reason why climbers can't clean up after themselves, and this has been the case at Millbrook, with the almost unique exception of the Westward Ha rap tree. The "sunfaded tat around a dead tree" is part of a false dichotomy that has bolts as its only alternative.

The fact is, the more crap people leave, the more incessant the calls for bolts become, whereas the real solution is to have nothing permanent or semi-permanent at all.

It is way too late for the main Gunks areas and even some of the undocumented ones, but Millbrook is unique in that climbers return to the top and so can easily, at the end of the day, remove their anchors and/or their slings. This has been the case for many years already and it works perfectly.

Sport climbing, the child that wants to eat its mother, continually threatens the natural basis of trad climbing. First come the tat-encrusted convenience anchors, then the bolts that suddenly become necessary because of the convenience anchors that were never necessary, then suddenly every little runout needs to be bolted too, and soon there is little trad climbing left, which suits some, but not all, of the population just fine.

Millbrook is now among the few remaining trad areas in the country, with hardly any fixed gear anywhere. Perhaps only in the UK are comparable opportunities available. Millbrook climbing isn't for everyone, but the Gunks are full of opportunities for those who don't want the experiences of a fixed gear free crag, whereas those who aspire to this type of climbing have fewer and fewer places to go, worldwide.

Making Millbrook more like every other cliff adds little to the stock of everyday cragging while destroying a resource that becomes more and more special as the rest of the world heads inexorably towards the sportification of all climbing.

As Cerro Torre has shown, there is a vibrant younger generation of climbers who don't think more bolts make for better climbing. I'm an old fart, but this is not an old fart issue---it is a question of homogenizing all climbing and thereby cutting off an entire younger generation from the type of climbing it has every right to aspire to.

Climbers have managed to keep Millbrook pristine for nearly 80 years. Lets not be the generation that blows it.

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#62899 - 03/05/12 05:04 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: rg@ofmc]
jakedatc Offline
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Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
For the record i don't think they should put bolts there.

I just find it amusing that Don would rather put up some shitpile of cable instead of 2 clean bolts because he is afraid they would fail.

pretty sure accidents where cams fail outnumbers the amount of bolts failing by a huge margin. and that is just actual mechanical failure not placement failure.

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#62904 - 03/05/12 10:01 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: jakedatc]
oenophore Offline
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Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5934
Loc: 212 land
I, for one, find RG's argument convincing. There is something special about Millbrook.
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#62906 - 03/05/12 10:15 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: oenophore]
SethG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 680
Loc: NYC
Much as I enjoyed RG's speech, I don't think anyone is arguing against anything he says. No one was seriously suggesting bolts and I think Don was just being perverse as Don is wont to do.
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#62911 - 03/06/12 12:42 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: SethG]
Dana Offline
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Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
The false dichotomy Rich mentions is especially pertinent here. And the assertion that fixed anchors are fixed anchors a) makes the assumption that if two things are similar they are the same, and b)ignores the issues of context and consequences.



Edited by Dana (03/06/12 12:48 AM)

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#62916 - 03/06/12 04:04 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Dana]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
bolts because he is afraid they would fail."

They will fail, it is just a matter of time, it may be 500 years, but the will fail. And most likely not at the same time, but yet maybe on rappel rather then that they be replaced beforehand.

I only used that tree maybe twice, I thought it was out of the way.

This is what I do. I got a rope I chopped up, and I use a 30' length to time into a tree on one side and I hang a rap anchor on the other side over the edge of the cliff.

Or I bring a rope to rap or jummar I. I do projects, so it is either go down jummar up or I walk around. [In this case you are not going to need bolts where you would pull the rope through.]

THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE Class 4 Donald Perry 1990

It is best to approach Millbrook from the north end of the cliff rather than repelling in my opinion, I think at least once in your life when you visit Millbrook. This way you can know how to climb out of Millbrook if you need to or want to, especially in some kind of emergency.

To get to the North end of the Grand Traverse Ledge starting from Trapps Bridge follow the carriage road along the back of the Near Trapps and find the Bayards Path which will lead you to the ridge between the Near Trapps and Bayards. Follow the Ridge Trail along the top of Bayards to climb Millbrook ridge. [As a side note, in the wet seasons there is a spring that runs over the trail at this point just before the Ridge Trail starts to ascend Millbrook Mountain. You can fill up your water bottles here.]

Climbing up in elevation abruptly you will eventually reach the edge of the actual cliff edge of Millbrook Mountain by means of a few camel backs. Part way to edge of the actual cliff you will meet a rock that is 5 foot high and 10 long where the trail goes around it on the right. I am going to call this rock the "GTL Stone", because it is very near the level of the Millbrook Grand Traverse Ledge. Keep this in mind as you pass this rock. After you pass this rock on the Ridge Trail continue up the hill until you go over a hump of rock. [To identify this hump of rock note that there is a 12' long crack that is 4" wide and 3' deep that runs a few feet left and parallel to the trail on the top of this outcrop of whitish conglomerate. ] From here the trail goes down and along level through trees for a few feet before a long smooth ridge of stone that ascends up to a block a few hundred feet away. [By the way, this stone ridge and this part of the trail now make the actual stone ridge, the edge of the Millbrook cliff. Do not climb this ridge.] At the base of this stone ridge depart from the trail going left and parallel to the trail to then traverse along the cliff South East past some small caves to a finger of rock that points south opposite a very short smooth North facing corner. Start descending directly down from here and below this smooth corner facing North. You will pass a ledge of rock to the base of this short cliff to a sloping hill of leaves and trees, and underbrush. Believe it or not, you are now on the Grand Traverse Ledge in less than 5 minutes from the time you left the trail!


Edited by donald perry (03/06/12 04:08 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62919 - 03/06/12 04:48 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
revised the last paragraph.


Edited by donald perry (03/06/12 01:36 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62924 - 03/06/12 01:54 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: ianmanger]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
SPAM!!!

Originally Posted By: ianmanger
Wait, you're the chain fairy?

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Look, if you really want an anchor there so much so that you want to put a bolt, why don't you save yourself some trouble and time and run a stainless or galvanized steel cable off another tree or rock back in the woods. Yea, and take a rubber hose on it too. You can inspect a cable but anyone can crazy glue a bolt to the wall. In other words, there is no disadvantage to using a cable. All you need to know is how long to make the cable, cut it, and put the hose and six clamps on it, and don't saddle a dead horse. It should take you no longer than 5 minutes to install it, less time than it took me to write this post. Hopefully no one will trip over it and fall off the cliff, if they do it is your fault.


Your right how did you guess? I did it to scare people with frightening lifelike plastic insects. Later on I was blamed and became the Chain Fairy.




Edited by donald perry (03/06/12 02:11 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62927 - 03/06/12 02:20 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: talus]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
However then again, why are there bolts all along the top of the Trapps now? I suppose that at some point if Millbrook becomes a congested trap the only sensible solution is to have bolted rap anchors in a couple of places. It won't make any difference at that point, ending erosion will be an enormous concern. There are already bolted rap stations at the Gunks, and from there no one has used that excuse to put more bolts, right? But if rap stations was the only answer for the Trapps, and if the argument for bolts there cannot be answered otherwise there, then how can we complain if there is a another rap station at the Gunks to prevent more trees from damage?

I think the best solution is for now, now that it is not that busy over there yet, that if you want to pull through, bring a 30' rope along. However is there going to be anchors there in the future?, if so then does it make any difference if there is bolts there now or 10 or 20 years from now? Are the numbers increasing?

But if you have to drill I think it would be better if the holes were unconventional, not bolts. Like the steel ring over CC Route. That way we could at least go on to say that Millbrook has no bolts and never will or something to that effect. Another option is to drill a hole for nuts.

You could use hole anchors, but that expensive thing could get stolen. But isn't there any other place to temporarily leave nuts there? so what if it gets stolen once in a while. If that is the case why do we need to drill bolts in the first place? Or what about pitons, no one ever stole those and reused them again? … except one person that I know of. And, there are pitons here already. So perhaps steel or stainless steel angles and a bong is the best solution. Does anyone have a picture of a where would be the best place to pound in some metal?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62928 - 03/06/12 03:25 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Thanks Donald. I am always tempted to try to get onto the ledge from that end but always seem to have too little time to look for the way.

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#62930 - 03/06/12 03:41 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: chip]
SethG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 680
Loc: NYC
Don, I can never tell if you are being fully serious. Are you really the source of all those little plastic guys on the Preserve's rap stations? Or are you just fooling with everyone? My mind is blown.

And the cable anchors? I find it hard to believe Don is trooping up to put a cable anchor atop No Picnic or Betty. I just figure he has bigger fish to fry.
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#62931 - 03/06/12 04:18 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: SethG]
Doug Offline
member

Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 165
Originally Posted By: SethG
Don, I can never tell if you are being fully serious. Are you really the source of all those little plastic guys on the Preserve's rap stations? Or are you just fooling with everyone? My mind is blown.


The person who goes by insuto on Mountain Project seems to be the source of them. He apparently meant to make it a game for kids to find them, according to his only post. Don't know if that is an alias for DJP, but I kind of doubt it.

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#62941 - 03/06/12 11:05 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Doug]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
SPAM!!!

I wrote: "...I did it to scare people with frightening lifelike plastic insects. Later on I was blamed and became the Chain Fairy."

No, I was the first one to do that that I know of. I only did it on about 10 climbs all at the same time, they were around 5.9-5.11. It seemed like a good idea at the time, some new challenges for the Gunks, who could get the gear in and who would bail. But they were plastic spiders and bugs with big eyes that I put in places where you would see them while you were trying to place gear on tough moves. "Later on" ... I meant it to be understood very close to the present tense of later on. So close that perhaps I should have said "Now". Just call me the Chain Fairy if you wish, I don't care.

Previously I never meant to admit it to anyone. Obviously some people would not find it funny.




Edited by donald perry (03/06/12 11:21 PM)
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#62942 - 03/07/12 12:18 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: rg@ofmc]
schwortz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 308
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
I for one am just as opposed to cables as to bolts. Frankly, there is absolutely no reason at Millbrook to leave anything at the top, and going forward I would hope that there would be no traces of any top anchors anywhere. There is no reason why climbers can't clean up after themselves, and this has been the case at Millbrook, with the almost unique exception of the Westward Ha rap tree. The "sunfaded tat around a dead tree" is part of a false dichotomy that has bolts as its only alternative.

The fact is, the more crap people leave, the more incessant the calls for bolts become, whereas the real solution is to have nothing permanent or semi-permanent at all.

It is way too late for the main Gunks areas and even some of the undocumented ones, but Millbrook is unique in that climbers return to the top and so can easily, at the end of the day, remove their anchors and/or their slings. This has been the case for many years already and it works perfectly.

Sport climbing, the child that wants to eat its mother, continually threatens the natural basis of trad climbing. First come the tat-encrusted convenience anchors, then the bolts that suddenly become necessary because of the convenience anchors that were never necessary, then suddenly every little runout needs to be bolted too, and soon there is little trad climbing left, which suits some, but not all, of the population just fine.

Millbrook is now among the few remaining trad areas in the country, with hardly any fixed gear anywhere. Perhaps only in the UK are comparable opportunities available. Millbrook climbing isn't for everyone, but the Gunks are full of opportunities for those who don't want the experiences of a fixed gear free crag, whereas those who aspire to this type of climbing have fewer and fewer places to go, worldwide.

Making Millbrook more like every other cliff adds little to the stock of everyday cragging while destroying a resource that becomes more and more special as the rest of the world heads inexorably towards the sportification of all climbing.

As Cerro Torre has shown, there is a vibrant younger generation of climbers who don't think more bolts make for better climbing. I'm an old fart, but this is not an old fart issue---it is a question of homogenizing all climbing and thereby cutting off an entire younger generation from the type of climbing it has every right to aspire to.

Climbers have managed to keep Millbrook pristine for nearly 80 years. Lets not be the generation that blows it.

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#62956 - 03/08/12 01:24 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: schwortz]
whatthegunks Offline
member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 134
Loc: High Falls, NY
The Trapps and Near Trapps have plenty of fixed anchors, short approaches and follow the chalk dab lines. If this is the sort of experience you are looking for do not go to Millbrook. If you decide to go then have your act together, do some climbing and leave the place the way you found it. If you feel like you need fixed gear then stop right there; Millbrook ain't for you.

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#62965 - 03/09/12 04:14 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: whatthegunks]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I believe you should have said...Millbrook isn't for you. We may be social degenerates, but at least let's have good grammar!

That is the great thing about the Gunks. People can toprope and have a certain experience, people can have routes laid out very clearly with fixed anchors if that is what they are looking for, or people can get off the beaten path with any number of undocumented cliff and experience what first ascents are like. The only experience not available is sport climbing, and even that is debatable.

Personally, I had a blast last summer and fall exploring routes that are not documented, and I got my ass kicked more times than ever...man is that fun!

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#62970 - 03/09/12 04:14 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: talus]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
I have a question. I want to do Scary Area. There are two bolts off the ground. One is new and one is old. Mark Robinson put in the new one and Kligfield put in the old one.

My question is, what is with this old bolt? How deep does it go into the rock? How long a fall could it take when it is new? And if it cannot take falls [plural] or the original fall today can it be replaced with a new bolt of the same make at a time where it starts to come loose or has reached its expiration date? Or can it be replaced with a stainless steel bolt?

I can imagine the first response might be "Just leave it alone don, haven't you done enough damage there already?"

If we can forget about me for the time being, I just want to know the answer to this question.

I would assume that the old bolt should have been removed and a better bolt put in its place. However, then again, we would lose the chance to fall on the original bolt. But how many times can people fall on a bolt like that? I know people do not fall on that bolt anyway. [But they do lower off it.] At least that is my suspicion. I never fell on it.

Another question I have is when the old bolt popes out, how do you replace it with the same kind of bolt, won't the hole be damaged?

I have no intentions of hanging around on it or falling on it or pulling it out. However when it pulls from someone else the climb will be 5" more dangerous because the now new bolt is over to the left. So when it pulls out a new bolt should be put back. But what kind of bolt do you put there? Something as close to the original is possible, only stainless steel?

I suppose Mark Robinson and John Brag supposed that climbing ethics would become better as time went on. And that trends would follow their logical path of high standards, that in the future there would not be any people who might stress out bolts like that and that would appreciate it's preservation. But what they foresaw never came to be. Today people hang their way up climbs and then pull the rope through and maybe or maybe not hang some more until there is not more hanging around. I was told that this is aid climbing. I try not to hang on climbs, I think it is unnecessary. I try and lower down after spending myself placing gear. I never make it my goal to flash anything. I don't want of fall on suspicious gear. I have been top-roping, but I am starting to get back to leading again. If I do hang on something it is because am I getting ready to realize I cannot do it at all and take it all apart.

So, I will be lowering off that bolt.

I post this here because it has to do with bolt thinking within these other ideas and may shed some new light on the topic of bolts.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62973 - 03/09/12 06:49 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I have a question. I want to do Scary Area. There are two bolts off the ground. One is new and one is old. Mark Robinson put in the new one and Kligfield put in the old one.

My question is, what is with this old bolt? How deep does it go into the rock? How long a fall could it take when it is new? And if it cannot take falls [plural] or the original fall today can it be replaced with a new bolt of the same make at a time where it starts to come loose or has reached its expiration date? Or can it be replaced with a stainless steel bolt?

I can imagine the first response might be

There is no restriction as to type or size of replacement bolt in Preserve policy. The only thing expressly prohibited are new pitons or bolts - existing ones can be replaced. All the old 1/4" bolts that have been replaced were replaced with whatever was considered appropriately modern at the time of replacement. Some were replaced with 3/8"x3-1/2" 5-piece, others with 10mm glue-ins.

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#62975 - 03/09/12 09:55 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
It makes no sense to replace a bolt or pin that isn't needed. Clearly, this one is needed in order to experience the climb as the first ascensionists did and there are no other reasonable options with modern cams, etc. That said, using the strongest, most long-lived bolt possible is now the norm, as it should be, to protect future generations and to protect the rock from future drilling as much as possible.

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#62978 - 03/09/12 11:41 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: chip]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: chip
It makes no sense to replace a bolt or pin that isn't needed.

Agreed. Except, apparently, when it's convenient for the local guides. I'm thinking of the piton at the start of the Roseland traverse.

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#62979 - 03/10/12 12:22 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: chip
It makes no sense to replace a bolt or pin that isn't needed.

Agreed. Except, apparently, when it's convenient for the local guides. I'm thinking of the piton at the start of the Roseland traverse.


Only guides and/or their clients clip that pin??

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#62980 - 03/10/12 12:31 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: chip
It makes no sense to replace a bolt or pin that isn't needed.

Agreed. Except, apparently, when it's convenient for the local guides. I'm thinking of the piton at the start of the Roseland traverse.


There is a story behind that piton, and it has nothing to do with guides or the guiding services. Someone asked a local climber to put it there; I believe it was in 1978 or so.


Edited by Dana (03/10/12 03:26 AM)

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#62985 - 03/10/12 04:43 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Dana]
SethG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 680
Loc: NYC
I love that piton, shut up about it and leave it alone!
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#62988 - 03/10/12 03:12 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Dana]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Dana
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: chip
It makes no sense to replace a bolt or pin that isn't needed.

Agreed. Except, apparently, when it's convenient for the local guides. I'm thinking of the piton at the start of the Roseland traverse.


There is a story behind that piton, and it has nothing to do with guides or the guiding services. Someone asked a local climber to put it there; I believe it was in 1978 or so.

I'm talking about the replacement a few years ago, not the original. There was debate on this forum and rockclimbing.com about whether it was needed. Someone said one of the local guides had eventually replaced it after it had fallen out/pulled/was removed/whatever.

I love that pin, too, by the way.

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#62991 - 03/10/12 04:28 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I don't know anything about the history of subsequent pins, but the original pin was an aid pin that turned into a very convenient protection piece.

In the "immaculately clean climbing" period before cams, that placement either couldn't replaced by a nut, or else the strenuousness of arranging, say, opposed nuts made the prospect extremely unappealing, requiring a level of endurance and skill needed for climbs a full grade harder.

And so the pin survived and became a "feature" of the route, which would certainly be harder (and scarier) if the leader had to fight to get a cam in at that spot.

Now that cams can be placed there, I think the pin should go, returning the route to the level of difficulty nature intended. But I suppose there are too many people who like the route in its present form for that to happen.

Another pin that absolutely should go is the pin over the roof on the second pitch of MF---there's really no excuse for that one.

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#62992 - 03/10/12 06:14 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: rg@ofmc]
SethG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 680
Loc: NYC
If we are to eliminate every pin that sits right next to a perfect cam placement we'll be eliminating a lot of pins. I'm sure this is what you think is right and true, Rich, but I'm just mentioning it to make the point that the traditional Roseland and MF pins, as unneccesary as they may be, are hardly exceptions.

The pin on the first pitch of MF is right next to a great spot for an Alien. No excuse for that one either.

Pins low on Birdland, same story...

Pin at the crux on the second pitch of Morning After...

Pin on Apoplexy...

I'm sure I could think of a zillion others, this is just off the top of my head.
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#62993 - 03/10/12 06:30 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: SethG]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
The first time I did Roseland the pin wasn't there. I reached out as far as I could from the stance, placed an Alien, and started traversing to the next stance. If you want to clip the pin you have to start the traverse, stop awkwardly and clip, then keep going. It might be one of the few instances where I think the presence of the pin actually makes it harder to onsite, as opposed to easier.

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#62996 - 03/10/12 09:22 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: RangerRob]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
Pins are cool, they give our crag "character." Leave 'em, replace 'em. Clipping them here gives me a feeling of home. Comforting to clip, safe to climb past, but still not commitment free like a bolt.

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#62999 - 03/11/12 01:31 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: RangerRob]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Interesting fact about Roseland Rob. Now there is even less reason for that pin.

Seth, I'm aware that we're talking about a lot of pins. I think every one you mentioned should go. (Well, I don't have a good image of the pin on Morning After.) Mind you, I'm not speaking of removing any of them, just that they shouldn't be replaced when they deteriorate sufficiently.

Many people are already placing cams next to pins to back them up because they don't trust the pins (a wise perspective). So why not dispense with them altogether once they fall out?

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#63004 - 03/11/12 03:53 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: rg@ofmc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
I think all the expired rust eaten pins should be removed before they break off in the cracks. Yesterday would have been a good time to do that.

However, I think it is helpful to have a few pins here and there. You can't leave anything else in the rock these days. My slings and nuts vanish in hours after I pull my rope through; they are not there next week. That is when pins would come in handy.

For example, I miss the one over Dug's Roof. What are you supposed to do if you can't make it? And what are you supposed to do if you do? It's such a pain. I personally think there should be a pin just above To Be Or Not To Be bolt chains, so you can rap down to the bolt anchors from the top of the cliff, if you don't want to lead it. And I can think of a few more odd places where I think they would occasionally come in handy. There's nothing like a nice solid pin that you know you can trust! But I really don't need for someone to run up to the cliff and find me pounding with a hammer, that's not what I'm looking for when I go climbing.


Edited by donald perry (03/11/12 04:06 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63007 - 03/11/12 11:58 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Lucander]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Lucander
Pins are cool, they give our crag "character." Leave 'em, replace 'em. Clipping them here gives me a feeling of home. Comforting to clip, safe to climb past, but still not commitment free like a bolt.


What happens 100 years from now when all the bolts are loose? Do we throw the cliff away like we throw everything else away? Bolts freak me out. I have had them snap on me before, although I talking old ... but that is the very point I am trying to make! You can toprope anything. You can even top-roped things like Suppers Ready or Twilight Zone. No need for bolts unless you are on a big wall. All the pins could be pulled too. Which ones are essential? I know of none.



Edited by donald perry (03/11/12 12:06 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63011 - 03/11/12 01:14 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3763
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Donald haven't you realized yet that toproping sucks ass. It's about as boring as watching Murder She Wrote.

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#63014 - 03/11/12 04:21 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: RangerRob]
Daniel Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 1515
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
If you want to clip the pin you have to start the traverse, stop awkwardly and clip, then keep going.


Some of us can clip the Roseland pin from the corner...barely...and it sure made me feel better before starting the traverse! (Not that I'm advocating its preservation.)

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#63018 - 03/11/12 10:51 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Daniel]
whatthegunks Offline
member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 134
Loc: High Falls, NY
I don't know RR, every time I toprope To Be or things like it I'm anything but bored. Lead some of these and it'd be something more like Murdered Me Wrote.

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#63021 - 03/12/12 03:22 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: whatthegunks]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey




That crack is 1 1/2" wide. Bash a Bong into it on an angle. If that does not work cut it off with a hacksaw. The crack is shallow. If the rope is too short put a sling on it. Just pray that a branch or the whole tree does not fall on you while you are on the rope underneath it. Whose property is the dead tree on?


Edited by donald perry (03/12/12 05:04 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63027 - 03/12/12 01:34 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: RangerRob]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: RangerRob
Donald haven't you realized yet that toproping sucks ass. It's about as boring as watching Murder She Wrote.


When your climbing by yourself you have to rope solo and if you want to improve your technique and do a lot of routes you have to top-rope. I already know everything there is to know about placing gear. I never try and on-sight anything, so it's about as boring as watching Murder She Wrote only when I am trying to get onto the next climb.

Although Tough Shift or Scary Area would be challenging. There is where the crux would be, placing the gear.



Edited by donald perry (03/12/12 01:44 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#66524 - 09/09/12 03:54 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
Roy Kligfield Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/16/10
Posts: 16
Loc: Boulder, CO
I responded to this issue of the bolt on the appreciation site but this may help clear things up.

The first pitch of what is now Scary Area was led by me around 1969. I placed NO BOLTS on this pitch--we did use rurps and knifeblades on flakes and skyhooks--to get by the area that is now free climbed.

So it is my understanding that the bolts were put in subsequently by those attempting the first free ascent and/or the first complete (to the top of the cliff) ascent.

therefore, as the "first ascenscionist" of pitch 1, I have no objection to anyone doing what is considered "ethical" and "right" by the standars of today. The question really needs to be directed to whomever made the first free ascent and placed the bolt.

Maybe this helps in deciding what to do?

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#66835 - 10/26/12 10:06 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
Roy Kligfield Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/16/10
Posts: 16
Loc: Boulder, CO
Just to set the record straight after all these years, I never put in a bolt on Scarea Area. It must have been added subsequent to the ascent of the first pitch, which we did entirely without bolts. Hence the name of the climb. Hope this helps clear up the issue.

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#67931 - 04/24/13 01:44 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Roy Kligfield]
SethG Offline
addict

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 680
Loc: NYC
I just want to let you all know: the Westward Ha tree is totally dead.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#67932 - 04/24/13 01:03 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: SethG]
KathyS Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 190
Loc: NY, USA
R.I.P. Westward Ha Tree. :^(

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#67943 - 04/25/13 08:34 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: SethG]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: SethG
I just want to let you all know: the Westward Ha tree is totally dead.


But it's still nice & strong...right? smirk

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#67946 - 04/25/13 01:12 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Mike Rawdon]
KathyS Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 190
Loc: NY, USA
Are you going to take your ice tools over there, Mike? wink

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#67949 - 04/25/13 02:17 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Mike Rawdon]
cfrac Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 456
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: SethG
I just want to let you all know: the Westward Ha tree is totally dead.


But it's still nice & strong...right? smirk


The tree is massive so it's not likely that the weight of someone rapping off it would be enough to pull it down, however it doesn't look like the roots go very deep and it's my guess that a windy day will bring it down. As others have said it's easy enough to build an anchor anywhere else along the cliff and rap off of it. I think it's best to build gear anchors rather than start using another tree since if a new tree becomes the standard rap it will most likely suffer the same fate as the original.

On another note I will be giving a slideshow about Millbrook at Rock & Snow Friday May 3rd 8pm.

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#68032 - 05/07/13 12:38 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: cfrac]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
I hiked out there Saturday to check out the situation. There's an option to build a gear anchor on the same ledge as the rap tree. Easily "boulder" up 2-3' and get at least two good pieces (.5-.75 camalot). Another foot or two up is an bigger but irregularly shaped horizontal that will take bigger (#2 and larger cams) gear.

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