Pins are cool, they give our crag "character." Leave 'em, replace 'em. Clipping them here gives me a feeling of home. Comforting to clip, safe to climb past, but still not commitment free like a bolt.

Interesting fact about Roseland Rob. Now there is even less reason for that pin.

Seth, I'm aware that we're talking about a lot of pins. I think every one you mentioned should go. (Well, I don't have a good image of the pin on Morning After.) Mind you, I'm not speaking of removing any of them, just that they shouldn't be replaced when they deteriorate sufficiently.

Many people are already placing cams next to pins to back them up because they don't trust the pins (a wise perspective). So why not dispense with them altogether once they fall out?

I think all the expired rust eaten pins should be removed before they break off in the cracks. Yesterday would have been a good time to do that.

However, I think it is helpful to have a few pins here and there. You can't leave anything else in the rock these days. My slings and nuts vanish in hours after I pull my rope through; they are not there next week. That is when pins would come in handy.

For example, I miss the one over Dug's Roof. What are you supposed to do if you can't make it? And what are you supposed to do if you do? It's such a pain. I personally think there should be a pin just above To Be Or Not To Be bolt chains, so you can rap down to the bolt anchors from the top of the cliff, if you don't want to lead it. And I can think of a few more odd places where I think they would occasionally come in handy. There's nothing like a nice solid pin that you know you can trust! But I really don't need for someone to run up to the cliff and find me pounding with a hammer, that's not what I'm looking for when I go climbing.

What happens 100 years from now when all the bolts are loose? Do we throw the cliff away like we throw everything else away? Bolts freak me out. I have had them snap on me before, although I talking old ... but that is the very point I am trying to make! You can toprope anything. You can even top-roped things like Suppers Ready or Twilight Zone. No need for bolts unless you are on a big wall. All the pins could be pulled too. Which ones are essential? I know of none.

Donald haven't you realized yet that toproping sucks ass. It's about as boring as watching Murder She Wrote.

Some of us can clip the Roseland pin from the corner...barely...and it sure made me feel better before starting the traverse! (Not that I'm advocating its preservation.)

I don't know RR, every time I toprope To Be or things like it I'm anything but bored. Lead some of these and it'd be something more like Murdered Me Wrote.

That crack is 1 1/2" wide. Bash a Bong into it on an angle. If that does not work cut it off with a hacksaw. The crack is shallow. If the rope is too short put a sling on it. Just pray that a branch or the whole tree does not fall on you while you are on the rope underneath it. Whose property is the dead tree on?

When your climbing by yourself you have to rope solo and if you want to improve your technique and do a lot of routes you have to top-rope. I already know everything there is to know about placing gear. I never try and on-sight anything, so it's about as boring as watching Murder She Wrote only when I am trying to get onto the next climb.

Although Tough Shift or Scary Area would be challenging. There is where the crux would be, placing the gear.

I responded to this issue of the bolt on the appreciation site but this may help clear things up.

The first pitch of what is now Scary Area was led by me around 1969. I placed NO BOLTS on this pitch--we did use rurps and knifeblades on flakes and skyhooks--to get by the area that is now free climbed.

So it is my understanding that the bolts were put in subsequently by those attempting the first free ascent and/or the first complete (to the top of the cliff) ascent.

therefore, as the "first ascenscionist" of pitch 1, I have no objection to anyone doing what is considered "ethical" and "right" by the standars of today. The question really needs to be directed to whomever made the first free ascent and placed the bolt.

Maybe this helps in deciding what to do?