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#62973 - 03/09/12 06:49 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I have a question. I want to do Scary Area. There are two bolts off the ground. One is new and one is old. Mark Robinson put in the new one and Kligfield put in the old one.

My question is, what is with this old bolt? How deep does it go into the rock? How long a fall could it take when it is new? And if it cannot take falls [plural] or the original fall today can it be replaced with a new bolt of the same make at a time where it starts to come loose or has reached its expiration date? Or can it be replaced with a stainless steel bolt?

I can imagine the first response might be

There is no restriction as to type or size of replacement bolt in Preserve policy. The only thing expressly prohibited are new pitons or bolts - existing ones can be replaced. All the old 1/4" bolts that have been replaced were replaced with whatever was considered appropriately modern at the time of replacement. Some were replaced with 3/8"x3-1/2" 5-piece, others with 10mm glue-ins.

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#62975 - 03/09/12 09:55 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
chip Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2679
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
It makes no sense to replace a bolt or pin that isn't needed. Clearly, this one is needed in order to experience the climb as the first ascensionists did and there are no other reasonable options with modern cams, etc. That said, using the strongest, most long-lived bolt possible is now the norm, as it should be, to protect future generations and to protect the rock from future drilling as much as possible.

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#62978 - 03/09/12 11:41 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: chip]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: chip
It makes no sense to replace a bolt or pin that isn't needed.

Agreed. Except, apparently, when it's convenient for the local guides. I'm thinking of the piton at the start of the Roseland traverse.

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#62979 - 03/10/12 12:22 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: chip
It makes no sense to replace a bolt or pin that isn't needed.

Agreed. Except, apparently, when it's convenient for the local guides. I'm thinking of the piton at the start of the Roseland traverse.


Only guides and/or their clients clip that pin??

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#62980 - 03/10/12 12:31 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
Dana Online   content
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: chip
It makes no sense to replace a bolt or pin that isn't needed.

Agreed. Except, apparently, when it's convenient for the local guides. I'm thinking of the piton at the start of the Roseland traverse.


There is a story behind that piton, and it has nothing to do with guides or the guiding services. Someone asked a local climber to put it there; I believe it was in 1978 or so.


Edited by Dana (03/10/12 03:26 AM)

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#62985 - 03/10/12 04:43 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Dana]
SethG Online   content
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 714
Loc: NYC
I love that piton, shut up about it and leave it alone!
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#62988 - 03/10/12 03:12 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Dana]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Dana
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: chip
It makes no sense to replace a bolt or pin that isn't needed.

Agreed. Except, apparently, when it's convenient for the local guides. I'm thinking of the piton at the start of the Roseland traverse.


There is a story behind that piton, and it has nothing to do with guides or the guiding services. Someone asked a local climber to put it there; I believe it was in 1978 or so.

I'm talking about the replacement a few years ago, not the original. There was debate on this forum and rockclimbing.com about whether it was needed. Someone said one of the local guides had eventually replaced it after it had fallen out/pulled/was removed/whatever.

I love that pin, too, by the way.

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#62991 - 03/10/12 04:28 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I don't know anything about the history of subsequent pins, but the original pin was an aid pin that turned into a very convenient protection piece.

In the "immaculately clean climbing" period before cams, that placement either couldn't replaced by a nut, or else the strenuousness of arranging, say, opposed nuts made the prospect extremely unappealing, requiring a level of endurance and skill needed for climbs a full grade harder.

And so the pin survived and became a "feature" of the route, which would certainly be harder (and scarier) if the leader had to fight to get a cam in at that spot.

Now that cams can be placed there, I think the pin should go, returning the route to the level of difficulty nature intended. But I suppose there are too many people who like the route in its present form for that to happen.

Another pin that absolutely should go is the pin over the roof on the second pitch of MF---there's really no excuse for that one.

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#62992 - 03/10/12 06:14 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: rg@ofmc]
SethG Online   content
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 714
Loc: NYC
If we are to eliminate every pin that sits right next to a perfect cam placement we'll be eliminating a lot of pins. I'm sure this is what you think is right and true, Rich, but I'm just mentioning it to make the point that the traditional Roseland and MF pins, as unneccesary as they may be, are hardly exceptions.

The pin on the first pitch of MF is right next to a great spot for an Alien. No excuse for that one either.

Pins low on Birdland, same story...

Pin at the crux on the second pitch of Morning After...

Pin on Apoplexy...

I'm sure I could think of a zillion others, this is just off the top of my head.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#62993 - 03/10/12 06:30 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: SethG]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
The first time I did Roseland the pin wasn't there. I reached out as far as I could from the stance, placed an Alien, and started traversing to the next stance. If you want to clip the pin you have to start the traverse, stop awkwardly and clip, then keep going. It might be one of the few instances where I think the presence of the pin actually makes it harder to onsite, as opposed to easier.

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