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#62894 - 03/05/12 02:56 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: ianmanger]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
Wait, you're the chain fairy?

Yeah, the bolt suggestion was obviously devil's advocacy, but it points up an interesting Gunks dilemma. People will get all twisted about an unobtrusive pair of bolts, yet seem willing to put up with this crap:

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Look, if you really want an anchor there so much so that you want to put a bolt, why don't you save yourself some trouble and time and run a stainless or galvanized steel cable off another tree or rock back in the woods. Yea, and take a rubber hose on it too. You can inspect a cable but anyone can crazy glue a bolt to the wall. In other words, there is no disadvantage to using a cable. All you need to know is how long to make the cable, cut it, and put the hose and six clamps on it, and don't saddle a dead horse. It should take you no longer than 5 minutes to install it, less time than it took me to write this post. Hopefully no one will trip over it and fall off the cliff, if they do it is your fault.


...and all the other convenience anchors made of shitty nuts, ancient pins, and multiple hunks of old webbing. Fixed anchors are fixed anchors - it doesn't matter what they are made from.

If a rappel tree is dieing, there's good chance it's from soil compaction at its base from climber foot traffic. Although it's probably too late for this tree, if you really want to save the tree, loosen the soil, aerate it, and put a little boardwalk around it - make sure the boardwalk extends to edge of the tree's canopy.

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#62895 - 03/05/12 03:26 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: retroscree]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
But he is obsessively paranoid of bolts..

sunfaded tat around a dead tree is so much more bomber than solid bolts placed correctly :eye roll:

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#62896 - 03/05/12 03:52 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: jakedatc]
whatthegunks Offline
member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 136
Loc: High Falls, NY
Stay away from Millbrook, Om, too scary, Om, ticks, loose rock and lichen, Ommm........

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#62898 - 03/05/12 04:39 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: whatthegunks]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I for one am just as opposed to cables as to bolts. Frankly, there is absolutely no reason at Millbrook to leave anything at the top, and going forward I would hope that there would be no traces of any top anchors anywhere. There is no reason why climbers can't clean up after themselves, and this has been the case at Millbrook, with the almost unique exception of the Westward Ha rap tree. The "sunfaded tat around a dead tree" is part of a false dichotomy that has bolts as its only alternative.

The fact is, the more crap people leave, the more incessant the calls for bolts become, whereas the real solution is to have nothing permanent or semi-permanent at all.

It is way too late for the main Gunks areas and even some of the undocumented ones, but Millbrook is unique in that climbers return to the top and so can easily, at the end of the day, remove their anchors and/or their slings. This has been the case for many years already and it works perfectly.

Sport climbing, the child that wants to eat its mother, continually threatens the natural basis of trad climbing. First come the tat-encrusted convenience anchors, then the bolts that suddenly become necessary because of the convenience anchors that were never necessary, then suddenly every little runout needs to be bolted too, and soon there is little trad climbing left, which suits some, but not all, of the population just fine.

Millbrook is now among the few remaining trad areas in the country, with hardly any fixed gear anywhere. Perhaps only in the UK are comparable opportunities available. Millbrook climbing isn't for everyone, but the Gunks are full of opportunities for those who don't want the experiences of a fixed gear free crag, whereas those who aspire to this type of climbing have fewer and fewer places to go, worldwide.

Making Millbrook more like every other cliff adds little to the stock of everyday cragging while destroying a resource that becomes more and more special as the rest of the world heads inexorably towards the sportification of all climbing.

As Cerro Torre has shown, there is a vibrant younger generation of climbers who don't think more bolts make for better climbing. I'm an old fart, but this is not an old fart issue---it is a question of homogenizing all climbing and thereby cutting off an entire younger generation from the type of climbing it has every right to aspire to.

Climbers have managed to keep Millbrook pristine for nearly 80 years. Lets not be the generation that blows it.

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#62899 - 03/05/12 05:04 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: rg@ofmc]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
For the record i don't think they should put bolts there.

I just find it amusing that Don would rather put up some shitpile of cable instead of 2 clean bolts because he is afraid they would fail.

pretty sure accidents where cams fail outnumbers the amount of bolts failing by a huge margin. and that is just actual mechanical failure not placement failure.

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#62904 - 03/05/12 10:01 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: jakedatc]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5981
Loc: 212 land
I, for one, find RG's argument convincing. There is something special about Millbrook.
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#62906 - 03/05/12 10:15 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: oenophore]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 714
Loc: NYC
Much as I enjoyed RG's speech, I don't think anyone is arguing against anything he says. No one was seriously suggesting bolts and I think Don was just being perverse as Don is wont to do.
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It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#62911 - 03/06/12 12:42 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: SethG]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
The false dichotomy Rich mentions is especially pertinent here. And the assertion that fixed anchors are fixed anchors a) makes the assumption that if two things are similar they are the same, and b)ignores the issues of context and consequences.



Edited by Dana (03/06/12 12:48 AM)

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#62916 - 03/06/12 04:04 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Dana]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
bolts because he is afraid they would fail."

They will fail, it is just a matter of time, it may be 500 years, but the will fail. And most likely not at the same time, but yet maybe on rappel rather then that they be replaced beforehand.

I only used that tree maybe twice, I thought it was out of the way.

This is what I do. I got a rope I chopped up, and I use a 30' length to time into a tree on one side and I hang a rap anchor on the other side over the edge of the cliff.

Or I bring a rope to rap or jummar I. I do projects, so it is either go down jummar up or I walk around. [In this case you are not going to need bolts where you would pull the rope through.]

THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE Class 4 Donald Perry 1990

It is best to approach Millbrook from the north end of the cliff rather than repelling in my opinion, I think at least once in your life when you visit Millbrook. This way you can know how to climb out of Millbrook if you need to or want to, especially in some kind of emergency.

To get to the North end of the Grand Traverse Ledge starting from Trapps Bridge follow the carriage road along the back of the Near Trapps and find the Bayards Path which will lead you to the ridge between the Near Trapps and Bayards. Follow the Ridge Trail along the top of Bayards to climb Millbrook ridge. [As a side note, in the wet seasons there is a spring that runs over the trail at this point just before the Ridge Trail starts to ascend Millbrook Mountain. You can fill up your water bottles here.]

Climbing up in elevation abruptly you will eventually reach the edge of the actual cliff edge of Millbrook Mountain by means of a few camel backs. Part way to edge of the actual cliff you will meet a rock that is 5 foot high and 10 long where the trail goes around it on the right. I am going to call this rock the "GTL Stone", because it is very near the level of the Millbrook Grand Traverse Ledge. Keep this in mind as you pass this rock. After you pass this rock on the Ridge Trail continue up the hill until you go over a hump of rock. [To identify this hump of rock note that there is a 12' long crack that is 4" wide and 3' deep that runs a few feet left and parallel to the trail on the top of this outcrop of whitish conglomerate. ] From here the trail goes down and along level through trees for a few feet before a long smooth ridge of stone that ascends up to a block a few hundred feet away. [By the way, this stone ridge and this part of the trail now make the actual stone ridge, the edge of the Millbrook cliff. Do not climb this ridge.] At the base of this stone ridge depart from the trail going left and parallel to the trail to then traverse along the cliff South East past some small caves to a finger of rock that points south opposite a very short smooth North facing corner. Start descending directly down from here and below this smooth corner facing North. You will pass a ledge of rock to the base of this short cliff to a sloping hill of leaves and trees, and underbrush. Believe it or not, you are now on the Grand Traverse Ledge in less than 5 minutes from the time you left the trail!


Edited by donald perry (03/06/12 04:08 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62919 - 03/06/12 04:48 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
revised the last paragraph.


Edited by donald perry (03/06/12 01:36 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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