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#63056 - 03/13/12 12:45 AM New bolt/pin on Try Again?
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
After blowing half a screamer on that rusting relic of a pin this weekend I vote to replace it with something more substanial. My 200 pound ass seemed to bend and move it a bit. Since the "Blue Camalot" placement block is laying at the base of the climb there's no really good backup for an otherwise difficult move with definite ankle snapping ledge below.

1/2" stainless bolt that'll last 20 years or another pin or two?




Edited by fear (03/13/12 12:46 AM)

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#63057 - 03/13/12 01:02 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: fear]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2470
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
You'd have to talk to the Preserve about placing a bolt in a place where none exists. On the other hand, anyone can place and/or remove a pin.

I wonder whether the "rusting relic" you mention was the original pin I placed on the FFA in 1967. (I remember either a short-medium or possibly a short-thick Lost Arrow.) If so (but I rather suspect not), that pin has done as well as any bolt could be expected to.

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#63059 - 03/13/12 01:27 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: rg@ofmc]
curmudgeon Offline
addict

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 466
I remember there used to be a rusted ring pin after you pulled the overhang before you reached the good holds.

It looked pretty suspect in the 70's but I clipped into it more than once.

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#63061 - 03/13/12 01:59 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: rg@ofmc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
You must be joking right? No, I guess you're not.

When I fall leading most of the time the pro is over my head, or else I down climb and sit on it, or else I make the move. It's very rare that I am taking long screamers on protection, and it is rarely necessary. Why can't you do 5.9 until you can do 5.10 without taking wipers on your pro? What is the point if you can barely make it without taking terrible falls? Why don't you fall lower down while putting in a nut? Why can't you walk up to the top of the cliff and rap down to the anchor like I do and put a top rope on it? You can also put a shock absorber on it.

Putting bolts all over the place is not the right answer, especially when you are climbing in a place where people hate bolts and people know how to solve trad problems in other ways then turning them into sport climbs. The only reason there are bolts at the top of the cliff is to stop the traffic and erosion with loose rocks falling off all along the top of the cliff. Other than that there is only a few climbs where bolts were placed before I even started climbing over 30 years ago.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63069 - 03/13/12 01:43 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
Replacing a 40 year old pin(s) with a bolt in a key spot is hardly turning it into a sport climb. There actually used to be a bolt. Some ancient 1/4 crater/stub is still there. I wasn't sure if the FFA's had a bolt there to begin with.

Hence, the question....

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#63070 - 03/13/12 02:01 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: fear]
NYZoo Offline
journeyman

Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 59
Loc: Gunks
I know of a few people who have taken falls on that pin.. a couple over and over. perhaps it's time to replace it. I know I am very reluctant to bring the wall hammer out to the cliff with some pins and go hammering on a route, especially on one that's so popular.. even though the pin already exists there… I'd fear I was going to get the beat down for it (not a literal beat down of course). I imagine others feel the same..

I think the never falling on gear approach an old school train of thought. Today's gear is far better than the gear of days past and if set properly in good quality rock it will hold. In the local group of climbers I climb with, we push ourselves and we also fall from time to time and every once in a while take a whipper. Now there are plenty of no fall situations like on remote climbs or on long run-outs where I wouldn't want to fall but each climber needs to asses these situations and decide when retreat is a better option than going for it. When on single or two pitch G or PG climbs right off the road, I say go for it and get some.

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#63076 - 03/13/12 02:45 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: NYZoo]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Try Again is not the climb you should be on right now. Do a different climb or let someone else lead it for you so you can second it.


Edited by donald perry (03/13/12 10:38 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63080 - 03/13/12 05:23 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2470
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
There was no bolt and no pin present during the FFA 45 years ago. (I might add that no falls were taken by anyone in our party of three and there was no resting on or weighting of any piece. I led the route and did climb up and down a few times before committing to the moves.)

I placed a pin over the lip that is either the one under discussion or more likely one that has replaced my original Lost Arrow. My memory is that it is an excellent placement and that new pin in that spot, if required, will be good for many years.

I don't think the route is even close to being a candidate for a bolt. The real question is whether one could get in a small cam (or two? Or some Ballnuts?) if the pin was gone.

Forty-five years later, climbers ought to be aspiring to a better style of ascent, not a worse one.

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#63081 - 03/13/12 05:27 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: rg@ofmc]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
It is standard ethics to respect the views of the first ascensionists as to any protection "upgrades". Thanks RG.

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#63084 - 03/13/12 06:27 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: chip]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
I don't know why these threads pop up so often. This question was resolved a few decades ago. The Preserve owns the cliff and the rules mandate no new bolts. It is totally academic whether a bolt there would be a bad thing, since the Preserve does not allow it.
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#63088 - 03/13/12 10:42 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: rg@ofmc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
There was no bolt and no pin present during the FFA 45 years ago. (I might add that no falls were taken by anyone in our party of three and there was no resting on or weighting of any piece. I led the route and did climb up and down a few times before committing to the moves.)

I placed a pin over the lip that is either the one under discussion or more likely one that has replaced my original Lost Arrow. My memory is that it is an excellent placement and that new pin in that spot, if required, will be good for many years.

I don't think the route is even close to being a candidate for a bolt. The real question is whether one could get in a small cam (or two? Or some Ballnuts?) if the pin was gone.

Forty-five years later, climbers ought to be aspiring to a better style of ascent, not a worse one.


well said, thanks.


Edited by donald perry (03/13/12 10:43 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63089 - 03/14/12 12:13 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
As for there not being any decent back up piece for the pin, that's just not the case. If memory serves, there is a bomber piece of gear about 12-18 inches below the roof in the corner.

Donald, your ethic and style work for you, but never ever falling is simply not the way things are done today. gear is safe when placed properly in good rock. People can push themselves on gear and take whips safely. You have a very conservative ethic but as long as other peoples ethic does not alter the experience for others, they have the right to climb in any style they choose.

Try Again does not need a bolt, and I don't think Fear was advocating this, he maybe just didn't know if there was one there previously.

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#63096 - 03/14/12 02:41 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
I'm pretty sure I've been stuck next to a DJP on a 12 hour flight once. Good Lord. Take your meds man.

Thanks to RG. I'll replace that pin if I ever get back on it.


Edited by fear (03/14/12 02:44 AM)

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#63097 - 03/14/12 02:53 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
No, I have two ethics. One is for beginners and one is for me and you.

Beginners have no business falling for the first five years they are leading. Any monkey can climb a bolt tree, but it takes brains to climb a rock. A lot of brains and that does not happen overnight. Sorry Sport Climbers. Tough Shift is a perfect example of what I am talking about. And even then you can still get hurt. I was never able to do that, I could never figure it out ahead of time.

You and me however, that's a different story. We are not a liability to the circumstances in the same way where we would demand bolts. We know what we are getting ourselves into. I will take long falls as you will too, if I have to, but I usually find some way around it. That may mean doing a lot of down climbing, unless the pro is good. It depends on the climb, every climb is different and there is no one rule I can recommend. But some climbs are just better off doing when you are more prepared, or you can climb a grad harder. I have never been able to do New Frontier, it is only 5.10 but there is no pro getting up into that corner. At some point you have to commit, when I tried it I was not ready for it.

So have ethics changed? Yes, they changed with Mark Robinson and John Brag, but that was a long time ago when that happened. But I think they are still alive today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhah7dRayLU
http://vimeo.com/4534537
And think that is because it is the only logical way to climb ever.

After that point with sport climbing ethics of sitting on the rope came into play and starting in the middle of the crux. I still think that whole idea always is unnecessary. But I think the truth of that statement will take some people years to find out that it is true. The only time I would suggest it is to see if you need to cut to the chase and make sure you cannot do it, to get it over with. In that case more climbing is not what is necessary; it may be losing weight or gaining muscle mass first. The moves themselves may have nothing whatsoever to do with it.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63100 - 03/14/12 04:54 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2470
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Rich Romano has clarified the Try Again Piton situation. When he first made an attempt in 1974, there was no piton over the lip, and his protection, which he took a 15 footer on, was a piton lower down in the corner. He later led the route successfully.

Now that I think about it, we would never have left a piton in place in 1967. That was the chromemolly age and anything you place was removed---I'm sure McCarthy would have taken my pin out when he seconded the route.

The constant placing and removing of hard steel pitons, a practice that was meant to leave climbs in a pristine state for subsequent ascents, turned out, as climbing became more popular, to be destroying the cracks, and this realization provided much of the impetus for the clean climbing revolution.

According to Rich, Jim Kolocotronis did the route later in 1974 and placed a piton over the lip. That piton was not cleaned, and Rich believes it to be the same one that is there today.

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#63102 - 03/14/12 12:13 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: fear
I'm pretty sure I've been stuck next to a DJP on a 12 hour flight once. Good Lord. Take your meds man.

Thanks to RG. I'll replace that pin if I ever get back on it.


Please be specific.

When were you on a 12 hour flight?


Edited by donald perry (03/14/12 12:22 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63103 - 03/14/12 12:28 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
I always find it amazing that I am a part of the generation which invented rock climbing. What would I have done if I was born 100 years earlier? I hope that I would have at least learned to top rope. But at the time there was no NY Thruway. There was no internet. There was no Rich Romano there was no Jim McCarthy. Information would have been somewhere between difficult and impossible. I would have been in the dark,


Edited by donald perry (03/14/12 12:32 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63108 - 03/14/12 02:48 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I always find it amazing that I am a part of the generation which invented rock climbing.

What? You're a 95 yr old British guy? Oh. Maybe you mean more modern. Odd, we don't see your name on any FAs or FFAs in the 60's in Yosemite, Boulder, or the Gunks. Sorry Sparky, you're a child that came along the 80's - the big contribution to climbing by that generation was the invention of sport climbing.

Originally Posted By: donald perry
What would I have done if I was born 100 years earlier? I hope that I would have at least learned to top rope. But at the time there was no NY Thruway. There was no internet. There was no Rich Romano there was no Jim McCarthy. Information would have been somewhere between difficult and impossible. I would have been in the dark,

We think you're in the dark about a lot of things.

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#63109 - 03/14/12 03:27 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
fotovult Offline
member

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 139
Loc: ny
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I have never been able to do New Frontier, it is only 5.10 but there is no pro getting up into that corner. At some point you have to commit, when I tried it I was not ready for it.


I've always found that route to be pretty G, even the 5.8-9 corner moves going up before the crux.
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www.chrisvultaggio.com

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#63112 - 03/14/12 04:33 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: fotovult]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
No, not 5.8, you must be kidding. If you fall off you hit the ledge, right?



Edited by donald perry (03/14/12 04:35 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63113 - 03/14/12 04:50 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
fotovult Offline
member

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 139
Loc: ny
My bad - I read it quick and thought Last Frontier.
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www.chrisvultaggio.com

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#64120 - 04/23/12 11:36 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: rg@ofmc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
There was no bolt and no pin present during the FFA 45 years ago. (I might add that no falls were taken by anyone in our party of three and there was no resting on or weighting of any piece. I led the route and did climb up and down a few times before committing to the moves.)

I placed a pin over the lip that is either the one under discussion or more likely one that has replaced my original Lost Arrow. My memory is that it is an excellent placement and that new pin in that spot, if required, will be good for many years.

I don't think the route is even close to being a candidate for a bolt. The real question is whether one could get in a small cam (or two? Or some Ballnuts?) if the pin was gone.

Forty-five years later, climbers ought to be aspiring to a better style of ascent, not a worse one.



Sorry, just wanted to ask a question. I am playing the devil's advocate and just making conversation.

If there was no place to put a pin there just over the lip, would everything still be the same. Would the first ascent still have gone ahead as planned or would it have been interrupted with much down climbing and lengthy hesitations. Would it have still happened on the same day or if not the next?

What do you think would have happened if there was no place to put a pin over the lip?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64127 - 04/23/12 03:06 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
NYZoo Offline
journeyman

Registered: 07/06/08
Posts: 59
Loc: Gunks
bigger whippers would have happened (and still be happening) just like RG's story of the FFA attempt by Romano when the pin wasn't there...

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#64128 - 04/23/12 06:42 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: fear
After blowing half a screamer on that rusting relic of a pin this weekend I vote to replace it with something more substanial. My 200 pound ass seemed to bend and move it a bit. Since the "Blue Camalot" placement block is laying at the base of the climb there's no really good backup for an otherwise difficult move with definite ankle snapping ledge below.

1/2" stainless bolt that'll last 20 years or another pin or two?




http://vimeo.com/3976756

This is an interesting video you might like. Finding bolts in trad climbs is something new to me.


Edited by donald perry (04/23/12 07:18 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64133 - 04/23/12 10:52 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2470
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
There was no bolt and no pin present during the FFA 45 years ago. (I might add that no falls were taken by anyone in our party of three and there was no resting on or weighting of any piece. I led the route and did climb up and down a few times before committing to the moves.)

I placed a pin over the lip that is either the one under discussion or more likely one that has replaced my original Lost Arrow. My memory is that it is an excellent placement and that new pin in that spot, if required, will be good for many years.

I don't think the route is even close to being a candidate for a bolt. The real question is whether one could get in a small cam (or two? Or some Ballnuts?) if the pin was gone.

Forty-five years later, climbers ought to be aspiring to a better style of ascent, not a worse one.



Sorry, just wanted to ask a question. I am playing the devil's advocate and just making conversation.

If there was no place to put a pin there just over the lip, would everything still be the same. Would the first ascent still have gone ahead as planned or would it have been interrupted with much down climbing and lengthy hesitations. Would it have still happened on the same day or if not the next?

What do you think would have happened if there was no place to put a pin over the lip?


Donald, you are asking me what we would have done in 1967 if things had been different and you think I'm going to give anything other than a self-serving answer?

Ok, I'll try. I'm pretty sure we would have done it anyway with lower protection. I almost never fell on routes (Coex was an exception at the time), because I went up and down until I had everything worked out. So I think that's what would have happened here, but I'm not sure the ascent would have taken any longer, because even with the pin there I went up and down a bunch and there wasn't much left to chance by the time I climbed the pitch. Pretty much the same behavior would have gotten me up it without the pin.

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#64136 - 04/23/12 11:55 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: rg@ofmc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Thanks for the clarifcation. I think that explains a lot about climbing made subject to thinking and skill.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#71267 - 04/07/14 02:30 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
I was on Try Again today and it seems there is a new pin.

I hope the person who installed it put it in more securely than the new pin on Feast of Fools, which fell out a few weeks ago...
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It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#71277 - 04/07/14 03:11 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: SethG]
Coppertone Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Newtown, CT
You can get a bomber nut in the corner before pulling the roof. I never placed a cam in that block that come off a few years back. You can also get a nut about a foot over the roof up and to the left.

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#71279 - 04/07/14 04:07 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: Coppertone]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
I had bomber nuts in the corner but was very glad to have the shiny new pin a few feet higher. Wish I'd seen the nut you mention above the roof, I will look for that placement next time!
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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