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#63088 - 03/13/12 10:42 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: rg@ofmc]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
There was no bolt and no pin present during the FFA 45 years ago. (I might add that no falls were taken by anyone in our party of three and there was no resting on or weighting of any piece. I led the route and did climb up and down a few times before committing to the moves.)

I placed a pin over the lip that is either the one under discussion or more likely one that has replaced my original Lost Arrow. My memory is that it is an excellent placement and that new pin in that spot, if required, will be good for many years.

I don't think the route is even close to being a candidate for a bolt. The real question is whether one could get in a small cam (or two? Or some Ballnuts?) if the pin was gone.

Forty-five years later, climbers ought to be aspiring to a better style of ascent, not a worse one.


well said, thanks.


Edited by donald perry (03/13/12 10:43 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63089 - 03/14/12 12:13 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
As for there not being any decent back up piece for the pin, that's just not the case. If memory serves, there is a bomber piece of gear about 12-18 inches below the roof in the corner.

Donald, your ethic and style work for you, but never ever falling is simply not the way things are done today. gear is safe when placed properly in good rock. People can push themselves on gear and take whips safely. You have a very conservative ethic but as long as other peoples ethic does not alter the experience for others, they have the right to climb in any style they choose.

Try Again does not need a bolt, and I don't think Fear was advocating this, he maybe just didn't know if there was one there previously.

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#63096 - 03/14/12 02:41 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
I'm pretty sure I've been stuck next to a DJP on a 12 hour flight once. Good Lord. Take your meds man.

Thanks to RG. I'll replace that pin if I ever get back on it.


Edited by fear (03/14/12 02:44 AM)

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#63097 - 03/14/12 02:53 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
No, I have two ethics. One is for beginners and one is for me and you.

Beginners have no business falling for the first five years they are leading. Any monkey can climb a bolt tree, but it takes brains to climb a rock. A lot of brains and that does not happen overnight. Sorry Sport Climbers. Tough Shift is a perfect example of what I am talking about. And even then you can still get hurt. I was never able to do that, I could never figure it out ahead of time.

You and me however, that's a different story. We are not a liability to the circumstances in the same way where we would demand bolts. We know what we are getting ourselves into. I will take long falls as you will too, if I have to, but I usually find some way around it. That may mean doing a lot of down climbing, unless the pro is good. It depends on the climb, every climb is different and there is no one rule I can recommend. But some climbs are just better off doing when you are more prepared, or you can climb a grad harder. I have never been able to do New Frontier, it is only 5.10 but there is no pro getting up into that corner. At some point you have to commit, when I tried it I was not ready for it.

So have ethics changed? Yes, they changed with Mark Robinson and John Brag, but that was a long time ago when that happened. But I think they are still alive today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhah7dRayLU
http://vimeo.com/4534537
And think that is because it is the only logical way to climb ever.

After that point with sport climbing ethics of sitting on the rope came into play and starting in the middle of the crux. I still think that whole idea always is unnecessary. But I think the truth of that statement will take some people years to find out that it is true. The only time I would suggest it is to see if you need to cut to the chase and make sure you cannot do it, to get it over with. In that case more climbing is not what is necessary; it may be losing weight or gaining muscle mass first. The moves themselves may have nothing whatsoever to do with it.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63100 - 03/14/12 04:54 AM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Rich Romano has clarified the Try Again Piton situation. When he first made an attempt in 1974, there was no piton over the lip, and his protection, which he took a 15 footer on, was a piton lower down in the corner. He later led the route successfully.

Now that I think about it, we would never have left a piton in place in 1967. That was the chromemolly age and anything you place was removed---I'm sure McCarthy would have taken my pin out when he seconded the route.

The constant placing and removing of hard steel pitons, a practice that was meant to leave climbs in a pristine state for subsequent ascents, turned out, as climbing became more popular, to be destroying the cracks, and this realization provided much of the impetus for the clean climbing revolution.

According to Rich, Jim Kolocotronis did the route later in 1974 and placed a piton over the lip. That piton was not cleaned, and Rich believes it to be the same one that is there today.

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#63102 - 03/14/12 12:13 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: fear
I'm pretty sure I've been stuck next to a DJP on a 12 hour flight once. Good Lord. Take your meds man.

Thanks to RG. I'll replace that pin if I ever get back on it.


Please be specific.

When were you on a 12 hour flight?


Edited by donald perry (03/14/12 12:22 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63103 - 03/14/12 12:28 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
I always find it amazing that I am a part of the generation which invented rock climbing. What would I have done if I was born 100 years earlier? I hope that I would have at least learned to top rope. But at the time there was no NY Thruway. There was no internet. There was no Rich Romano there was no Jim McCarthy. Information would have been somewhere between difficult and impossible. I would have been in the dark,


Edited by donald perry (03/14/12 12:32 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63108 - 03/14/12 02:48 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I always find it amazing that I am a part of the generation which invented rock climbing.

What? You're a 95 yr old British guy? Oh. Maybe you mean more modern. Odd, we don't see your name on any FAs or FFAs in the 60's in Yosemite, Boulder, or the Gunks. Sorry Sparky, you're a child that came along the 80's - the big contribution to climbing by that generation was the invention of sport climbing.

Originally Posted By: donald perry
What would I have done if I was born 100 years earlier? I hope that I would have at least learned to top rope. But at the time there was no NY Thruway. There was no internet. There was no Rich Romano there was no Jim McCarthy. Information would have been somewhere between difficult and impossible. I would have been in the dark,

We think you're in the dark about a lot of things.

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#63109 - 03/14/12 03:27 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: donald perry]
fotovult Online   content
member

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 142
Loc: ny
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I have never been able to do New Frontier, it is only 5.10 but there is no pro getting up into that corner. At some point you have to commit, when I tried it I was not ready for it.


I've always found that route to be pretty G, even the 5.8-9 corner moves going up before the crux.
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www.chrisvultaggio.com

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#63112 - 03/14/12 04:33 PM Re: New bolt/pin on Try Again? [Re: fotovult]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1536
Loc: New Jersey
No, not 5.8, you must be kidding. If you fall off you hit the ledge, right?



Edited by donald perry (03/14/12 04:35 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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