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#63583 - 04/05/12 01:37 PM Re: Accident on MF today [Re: donald perry]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
Please adjust your meds.

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#63589 - 04/05/12 03:18 PM Re: Accident on MF today [Re: donald perry]
Adrian Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 73
Originally Posted By: donald perry
"I will try not to be too judgmental here, and instead I would like to focus on recognizing errors, avoidance, and in general, safer climbing."

Thanks, I would like to say something to, that I have said before. It takes 5 years to learn how to lead. Taking leader falls is something you should only consider after you have been climbing for at least that long.

Now when I say 5 years that is not a long time. I know what I am talking about, and I have had numerous close calls, but none lately that I can remember. [except for that incident with the camera I mentioned in my previous post] And because I am a steeplejack and before that lumberjack for over 30 years when I say 5 years you can translate that into 30 when you climb full time and you do not have to travel 2 hours to the cliff. Or you can think of it like this. If someone who works in NYC says that they have been climbing for 25 years, to someone who guides for a living, that could be understood as 150 years.

So the point I am trying to make is that 5 years is not a long time. During that time that you are learning to climb, if you are on something hard where you think you could fall, down climb and do something easier where you are not going to fall. I was taught this by Bill Ravitch when I first came to the Gunks. There is a lot to learn, and you will not learn everything in 5 years, but you should learn enough not to get hurt quite so easily.

I have said this before, and someone on this forum mocked me and said I did not understand that latest climbing trends. No, I understand them perfectly. Climbing accidents are predominately avoidable. A list of rules is not the answer so much as you need to know the answer without the list, *instinctively*.

Now, when you are ready to lead harder. This is how you do it. [this is basic rule, will not work in every situation] You go up and find good protection. After that you climb up, to get to the top? NO! WRONGWRONGWRONG! You climb up to put in another piece of gear. ONE PIECE OF GEAR! You are climbing to place gear, or you are climbing up to down climb back down, quick, and NOT TO JUMP OFF! If you see people with a whole rack of gear on them and 40 biners in the Gunks trying to lead hard, RIGHT THERE, you know they are clueless. You are going up to put in one piece, you don


Quote:
need much gear, just a few pieces. You are not top heavy.

Next, if you are climbing 5.11 now after 5 years you have now thrown all your slings away, except for maybe 4. THAT IS IT! If you have any more than that, it could be that you need another 5 years of climbing to figure out what I am talking about. BTW, you do not start off with that. This, what I am talking about is something that you work toward, it will not happen overnight that you can understand it. I have no rope drag when I climb, NONE and I really don't use slings very much. You can also use some stoppers to extend length if you are desperate.

How does this happen? Because like I said in the beginning, you are climbing to place gear not get to the top. This means then that you are going to happily down climb or lower down to adjust gear or remove gear. The romantic idea of climbing from bottom to top is not practical, you have to climb down once in a while and adjust the machine. You may need to tie down a piece with another piece so it does not come out. And if the climbing gets hard, and there is no protection over your head, then you have to down climb quite a bit and take falls close to the nut at first and work your way up or out.

You start at the bottom with a rack of gear and ascend like a god passing every frightening obstacle placing gear as you go like Brian Kim on Cybernetic Wall http://vimeo.com/4534537 ???

WRONG WRONG WRONG

That is something that happens later after you have the climb and the falls wired. I have already said far too much. All that is necessary for you to know is do not fall, and climb to place gear. If you get to the top, fine, if not, better. The most rememberable climbs are the ones you do not do. How was the gear is the question you need to be asking, not how was the climb.

"The climber, from what I understood was relatively new to trad climbing …"? All that is necessary for you to know *foremost* is do not climb at a grade where you will fall, and climb to place gear. A word to the wise is sufficient.

One more thing. When you get to the top please pick up the loose rocks and carry them back into the woods where they belong.

And one more thing. Do not bring your babies up to the face of the cliff, you are endangering the welfare of a minor. How about a construction site or next to a loud wood chipper sucking in tree trunks? Do you think they would let you on construction sites with a baby-in-backpack? The cliff is dangerous, things and people are always falling off it. If you are going to ignore that then at least keep this what I said in mind, there are starving sharks in these waters.

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#63590 - 04/05/12 03:23 PM Re: Accident on MF today [Re: donald perry]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
Nothing like a lecture on safety from a belayer who almost cratered his son because he was operating a video camera at the same time . . .

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#63591 - 04/05/12 03:24 PM Re: Accident on MF today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
.


Edited by donald perry (04/06/12 09:55 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63592 - 04/05/12 03:26 PM Re: Accident on MF today [Re: retr2327]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
.


Edited by donald perry (04/06/12 09:56 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63595 - 04/05/12 04:16 PM Re: Accident on MF today [Re: donald perry]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2082
Loc: SoCal
Folks, let's please hope the moderator chooses this opportunity to be active (!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

and let's please not antagonize the less-than-stable in this thread. Just move along.

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#63596 - 04/05/12 04:35 PM Re: Accident on MF today [Re: donald perry]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
"What matters is not whether you make mistakes or not"

It's certainly true that we all make mistakes, and it's important to learn from them when they happen. But it's also true that sometimes it does matter when you make a mistake, and learning from the mistake won't necessarily erase the consequences that the mistake produced.

So it's not a bad idea to at least try to avoid making the more obvious mistakes in the first instance, and I'd think that operating a video camera while belaying might fall in that category, at least under normal circumstances.

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#63598 - 04/05/12 05:00 PM Re: Accident on MF today [Re: MaxLasky]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Max, sorry to hear about this. Can you (or anyone else) just clarify as I'm trying to visualize it. Corey climbed through the direct corner above the pin (i.e didn't step around to the right per MF regular), then aided through the 2nd crux but didn't clip the nut he used. So where was the piece 'down and left' that he fell on? At the 1st crux roof?

best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Ian

Originally Posted By: MaxLasky
I was belaying my buddy Corey when he fell yesterday on MF. Nick's account of the events is pretty dead on except Im pretty sure the rope was not wrapped around his leg when he took the tragic fall. Either way, its a scary and shocking reminder of how dangerous our sport inherently is.

I am pretty traumatized by seeing one of my good friends get so seriously injured, but am so happy and proud of the efficiency of his evacuation and the amazing competence and helpfulness of nearby climbers and by the Mohonk Preserve rangers.

Lets send Corey tons of love and healing energy and hope for a speedy and full recovery.

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#63601 - 04/05/12 05:20 PM Re: Accident on MF today [Re: retr2327]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
.


Edited by donald perry (04/06/12 02:09 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#63604 - 04/05/12 05:29 PM Re: Accident on MF today [Re: Bill]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
.


Edited by donald perry (04/06/12 09:57 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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