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#65100 - 05/31/12 02:49 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
retr2327 Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
But inattentiveness can lead to inanimatedness . . .

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#65105 - 05/31/12 04:33 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Online   content
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I do not think the more experienced climbers and new climbers *can* make the *same kind* of mistakes.

You mean like when Lynn Hill neglected to complete tying her knot?

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#65107 - 05/31/12 05:11 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
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Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I do not think the more experienced climbers and new climbers *can* make the *same kind* of mistakes.



You mean like when Lynn Hill neglected to complete tying her knot?



No, I mean like after when Lynn Hill neglected to complete tying her knot or after that helicopter pilot crashed his helicopter. If he worked for me I might consider put him right back up there again. Why?


OK, let me ask you a question. Do you think those helicopter pilots or Lynn Hill will be much less likely to make those same kind of rigging mistakes again? I think now they learned to have a hell of a lot more respect for rope than they did before.


Now you may argue that a newbie would have been much more attentive. However, newbies don't know what to have respect or attentiveness for. They worry about the rope breaking. They worry about slipping off buckets. They use up a lot of energy thinking about the wrong things, while the most dangerious thing could be a tick.

I do not think Lynn Hill will forget to tie her knot again. And as long as I keep remembering her I will not make the same mistake, and allow anyone to distract me in the middle of a setup either. And this is likely what happened on Easy K. It's a common mistake when there are a lot of people around. Climbing with a group of people is not the same as climbing with one or two other people. It requires a completly different set of rules, something a newbie would never know anything about.





Edited by donald perry (05/31/12 05:14 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65112 - 05/31/12 06:16 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
That pilot should have gone over with the crew on the ground how the cable was going to be treated and my whom. Obviously there was no plan as there was over four seconds while everyone just watched the man get under the chopper (all oblivious to what was about to happen) and yank on the cable. Nothing was talked or thought out.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65113 - 05/31/12 06:51 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
ianmanger Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Hey Donald, they have Google over where you live?
Looks like there was a perfectly good plan, and a backup, radio communication, and it still all went wrong, as plans do when people try to cut corners. See "massive rush of blood to the head"

Either that, or you can just continue making shit up to prove whatever point it is you're trying to make. Perhaps "cutting corners" is the issue, but that's not really the point you're making. I'm sure you'll correct yourself ad nauseam.


Originally Posted By: donald perry
That pilot should have gone over with the crew on the ground how the cable was going to be treated and my whom. Obviously there was no plan as there was over four seconds while everyone just watched the man get under the chopper (all oblivious to what was about to happen) and yank on the cable. Nothing was talked or thought out.

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#65114 - 05/31/12 06:52 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Online   content
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I do not think the more experienced climbers and new climbers *can* make the *same kind* of mistakes.



You mean like when Lynn Hill neglected to complete tying her knot?



No, I mean like after when Lynn Hill neglected to complete tying her knot or after that helicopter pilot crashed his helicopter. If he worked for me I might consider put him right back up there again. Why?


OK, let me ask you a question. Do you think those helicopter pilots or Lynn Hill will be much less likely to make those same kind of rigging mistakes again? I think now they learned to have a hell of a lot more respect for rope than they did before.

But that wasn't what you said. You outright rejected the notion that an experienced climber can make the same mistakes as a beginner. Obviously, they can. How they learned from their mistakes is an entirely different discussion.

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#65118 - 05/31/12 10:17 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
From Don: "Obviously there was no plan as there was over four seconds while everyone just watched the man get under the chopper (all oblivious to what was about to happen) and yank on the cable. Nothing was talked or thought out."

From ianmanger: "Looks like there was a perfectly good plan, and a backup, radio communication, and it still all went wrong, as plans do when people try to cut corners. ["rush of blood to the head"]"

From Donald: Your sentence is presenting two ideas that contradict themselves, one of which I already stated. When allow people to cut corners there is no safety first, there is no plan. I am going to deal with each of these things separately, I do not think they belong together anyway.

First: ianmanger wrote: "Looks like there was a perfectly good plan". This is now a legal problem, do you think they are going to tell the truth?, so we have to look at the video first. Everything in the video shows there was no *plan*. If there was a plan it had nothing to do with cable. And if there was no cable in the plan then there was no plan. You can say there was a plan all you want, but there is nothing unexpected, the cable did not shrink, there was no wind, they were just too lazy to do the math and make a plan.

First: ianmanger wrote: "Looks like there was a perfectly good plan". If it was a perfectly good plan there would not have been an accident.

First: ianmanger wrote: "Looks like there was a perfectly good plan, and a backup, radio communication, …" The pilot said he had his own man on the ground. If they all had radio communication with each other, then the spotter would have said something to Anderson under the chopper like, "Get out of there Anderson!, your not part of the plan on the short cable!". The cable problem is obvious, and a "good plan" would have noticed it even before the chopper took off.

Second ianmanger wrote: "… still all went wrong, as plans do when people try to cut corners." OK, so now there is no plan. When there is a plan and then there is no plan 1 – 1 = 0 plans.

Second ianmanger wrote: "… still all went wrong, as plans do when people try to cut corners." I agree, I do not see the spotter objecting to Anderson under the chopper. Anderson is acting as both spotter and rigger, I doubt the pilot's man is telling him to jump up and grab the cable. There is no plan set in stone, nor is there any contemplation or calculation, they don't even know how long the cable is and what that means. This plan is, as you go we all plan ... separately. The pilot was going back up while the rigger is going down. What's the rush?, where is the communication? There is none, there is no plan.

ianmanger wrote: " I'm sure you'll correct yourself ad nauseam." I'm sticking with my story. There was no plan. How could there be? I am sure no one made real plans. So whose fault is it? Probably everyone, this is how they were all preceding I will argue, as can be seen be the emotions of all the people watching.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65119 - 05/31/12 10:30 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
But that wasn't what you said. You outright rejected the notion that an experienced climber can make the same mistakes as a beginner. Obviously, they can. How they learned from their mistakes is an entirely different discussion.

There is a difference between negligence and not knowing. These kinds of things come out in court with the same accident is not the same *kind* of accident. One man will go to jail while another will not.

For example, if I acting as a captain of a cruse ship, put you who have no experience in charge, who is at fault if there is an accident?


Edited by donald perry (05/31/12 10:35 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65120 - 05/31/12 10:54 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Online   content
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Please learn how to use the quote function. Thanks!

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#65121 - 06/01/12 12:12 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
opps, sorry

Originally Posted By: retroscree
But that wasn't what you said. You outright rejected the notion that an experienced climber can make the same mistakes as a beginner. Obviously, they can. How they learned from their mistakes is an entirely different discussion.


There is a difference between negligence and not knowing. These kinds of things come out in court with the same accident is not the same *kind* of accident. One man will go to jail while another will not.

For example, if I acting as a captain of a cruse ship, put you who have no experience in charge, who is at fault if there is an accident?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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