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#64484 - 05/02/12 02:32 PM Accidents & New Climbers (was Accident @ Blackfly
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: JordanF
This accident is truly tragic, and hard to fathom, considering the preventability. The victim likely didn't think she was taking any serious risk on TR, and trusted her party. I cannot imagine the grief her family is facing, amid the lack of answers or reasons for their loss.
The widespread media coverage will reinforce misconceptions in the public eye regarding climbing safety, unfortunately, and the extreme rarity of a TR failure may not be conveyed.
There are plenty of subtle reminders such as near misses and minor injuries to force safety to the forefront of the community. A needless, preventable death such as this is beyond explanation.






Edited by webmaster (05/02/12 05:22 PM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64485 - 05/02/12 02:55 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
DP, IMO this has no place here at this time. It is all speculation until we learn more of the details. Please take it down and show some respect.

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#64492 - 05/02/12 03:37 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
Corey Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/02/12
Posts: 1
I agree with Ian. We so t know who set the top rope. They might have been inexperienced climbers. It it is just as likely that they were experienced climbers who got complacent. Which happens a lot more than it should.

I dont think it's fair to blame problems on inexperienced climbers because experienced climbers make just as many mistakes. Not to mention it is the job of the experienced climber to teach the newcomer. If you cut corners when you are teaching then bad habits propagate at the crag.

Either way, lets avoid placing any blame or going into some sort of climbing elitist mode, mistakes were made and enough has already happened to deal with.

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#64494 - 05/02/12 03:54 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
DP, IMO this has no place here at this time. It is all speculation until we learn more of the details. Please take it down and show some respect.


It would be helpful if you learn the context of the post. It is in the context of "A needless, preventable death such as this is beyond explanation." How do you think the person feels who is said to be to blame for such an accident when it is not his fault? How do you think such a post might appear in the minds of those who might be in courts? Just where would you like the blame to rest?

I am sure if I was the one who had this happen to me [or if it was my son or daughter] I would at the very least want there to be some careful consideration along the lines of "what happened", that others would be the wiser and that at the very least my accident would not be in vein and that others might live because of me.

I am simply posting some information on safety. And if the parties to this accident would have read and heeded such information, if such information was available to them, they surly would not have had this accident in the first place. I am sorry if this bothers you, but the point of the matter is that we all need to wise up because we are to blame. We have not been doing our part in creating an informed atmosphere. And when I say "informed" I am talking about you and I, not this party or new climbers. I hope this helps.

Please at least email me privately first if you have anything else. Thanks.


Edited by donald perry (05/02/12 04:42 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64500 - 05/02/12 05:36 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Corey]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Corey
I agree with Ian. We so t know who set the top rope. They might have been inexperienced climbers. It it is just as likely that they were experienced climbers who got complacent. Which happens a lot more than it should.

I dont think it's fair to blame problems on inexperienced climbers because experienced climbers make just as many mistakes. Not to mention it is the job of the experienced climber to teach the newcomer. If you cut corners when you are teaching then bad habits propagate at the crag.

Either way, lets avoid placing any blame or going into some sort of climbing elitist mode, mistakes were made and enough has already happened to deal with.


"I dont think it's fair to blame problems on inexperienced climbers" I was not doing that. Quote me.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64502 - 05/02/12 05:42 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
DP,

Somebody obviously screwed up a TR anchor on a big tree and a girl died because of it. There's really not much more to say. Is it really important in this case 'how' they screwed it up? What difference would that make DP? This wasn't some intricate lead climbing situation with sketchy gear that we could all learn from.

Some people feel the need to assign blame with every accident that happens. Maybe that makes you feel more in control like you'll never screw anything up?

We all know beginners make more mistakes and sometimes they die because of them. That's part of growing up. Could be in a car oron a rock.

But in this situation the only guy that knows what happened is the one who rigged that anchor. I think of the stupid shit I did 20 years ago and just thank God nothing like that happened to me or my friends.


Edited by fear (05/02/12 05:48 PM)

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#64505 - 05/02/12 06:02 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
That is not exactly what my post was about. I was trying to say we need to talk to newbies and tell them to see a guide first and then give up the idea of falling for quite a while until later.

Have you walked down the carriage road lately? Next time you do I want you to stop and watch some party for a little while. That is what I do. Keep an eye on them and say something, I guarantee you will see something horrifying before too long.

I have not been around there lately, but I will tell you what I see next time I go down there. I have found wrongly tied knots, open lockers, half tied harnesses, and general improper procedure. You know the scean. [One time I found two guys aiding with hooks on Gill problems and holds were being broken off.] And then I give them advice or a stern warning. I think we need to start doing this as a habbit.

What do you think?


Edited by donald perry (05/02/12 06:54 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64531 - 05/03/12 01:08 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
I understand that some of you do not agree with me. And I don't know why you don't send me a private letter. Perhaps I should try and explain again what I am saying because I don't think I have made myself clear enough: What I am posting about or why I am posting this and that in the accident thread. There are a couple of things going on here.

First, I see in some of these letters that I am being taken out of context.

Second, in the thread we have: "hard to fathom, considering the preventability … A needless, preventable death such as this is beyond explanation." "nothing like this should happen, ever." Whether you want to admit it or not there is blame in the thread and the message is that the person that set up the top rope has blood on his hands. And maybe you are OK with that, but I'm not. I am sure the accident was not intentional; accidents do not have to be anyone's fault per-say. But it is the fault of the climbing community. And when these kinds of statements are made in the thread they need to be answered in the tread because family members and the people who set up the anchor will be reading them. Such thinking is misplaced. They refused to take into account that we are just as reckless as the persons who set up that anchor, and we will continue to be reckless, it is just on another level.

Third, this is not a legitimate climbing accident because these people involved were not any more climbers then they were mountaineers. It is more so an unfortunate chain of events and misconceptions that lead up to a realization of what rock-climbing is.

Fourth, there are a number of ways something like this could have happened that are easy to explain that would prove it was not the fault of the person who set up the rope. I went over all these at length to take heat off the party that set up the rope but now the heat is back on big time. We have yet to know what happened. What's up with that?

But I can tell you what will mean something, and that is if Stephanie's death is not in vain. That would be if we promise to talk to others on the carriage road and new climbers and remember Stephanie. Then there is a point in all these things and all these posts when Stephanie means something to all of us. Everything else is meaningless unless we can do something to help prevent the next accident.

Is this something we can do? Perhaps can we start talking to people and learning how to help them prevent accidents? If not, if we cannot be self governing, I would assume that sooner or later the state will need to step in and take over. The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications. And in this way climbing could be opened up again in places where it has been banned.

What do you think?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64533 - 05/03/12 01:15 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


You've got to be kidding.

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#64535 - 05/03/12 01:31 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Mike Rawdon]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


You've got to be kidding.


Why?, what is wrong with that? You would pass and then that would be the end. If you helped support the AMC we could put an end to most of these clueless deaths and accidents.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64537 - 05/03/12 02:01 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


Really? Most accidents are experienced climbers becoming complacent eg rapping off ends of rope of forgetting to tie in. Shit happens. This is a tragedy and my condolences to the young girls family. I however doubt I will gain insight into climbing safety from a tr failure and amc is totally unnecessary. Dp don't talk safety to anyone I've seen you free soloing frogs head in denims and mountaineering boots. You looked sketchy as hell. Im glad we aren't talking about you but c'mon don't even hint at safety you're foolish.

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#64538 - 05/03/12 02:02 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


You've got to be kidding.



What is the issue Mike Rawdon? They do it for scuba diving.........
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The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64540 - 05/03/12 02:08 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


Really? Most accidents are experienced climbers becoming complacent eg rapping off ends of rope of forgetting to tie in.


I don't believe that is true. You got a study to back that up?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64541 - 05/03/12 02:16 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


Really? Most accidents are experienced climbers becoming complacent eg rapping off ends of rope of forgetting to tie in. Shit happens. This is a tragedy and my condolences to the young girls family. I however doubt I will gain insight into climbing safety from a tr failure and amc is totally unnecessary. Dp don't talk safety to anyone I've seen you free soloing frogs head in denims and mountaineering boots. You looked sketchy as hell. Im glad we aren't talking about you but c'mon don't even hint at safety you're foolish.



Not sure what the denims and mountaineering boots have to do with anything..........John McEnroe could still beat anyone on this forum in denims and mountaineering boots......
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64542 - 05/03/12 02:17 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
worthrussell Offline
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Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
No Dp I didn't bring Any studies to back my comments up but follow the logic noob climbers are nervous and quadruple check everything. Experienced leaders do things quickly and without hesitation. Things are often overlooked. The experienced climber climbs more often hence the theory. Also factor in that experienced climbers push safety to its limits and climb harder climbs with more r and x rated climbs and wham my statements have some merit.

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#64543 - 05/03/12 02:29 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
No Dp I didn't bring Any studies to back my comments up but follow the logic noob climbers are nervous and quadruple check everything. Experienced leaders do things quickly and without hesitation. Things are often overlooked. The experienced climber climbs more often hence the theory. Also factor in that experienced climbers push safety to its limits and climb harder climbs with more r and x rated climbs and wham my statements have some merit.



What you say about experienced climbers is the antithesis of our experience
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64544 - 05/03/12 02:41 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
No Dp I didn't bring Any studies to back my comments up but follow the logic noob climbers are nervous and quadruple check everything. Experienced leaders do things quickly and without hesitation. Things are often overlooked. The experienced climber climbs more often hence the theory. Also factor in that experienced climbers push safety to its limits and climb harder climbs with more r and x rated climbs and wham my statements have some merit.


I know about all the accidents, and I have seen all the accidents, I have seen it all and you are wrong. Yes there were some mishaps, but most of those where after countless hours, not based so much on experience and lack of attentiveness, but more so on time and chance.

Accidents can be greatly reduced, your attention is misguided. The focus needs to be on beginners not so much on experienced climbers. I would estimate that there is 95 newbie accidents to 5 for experienced climbers. And when I say experienced I am talking 5 years experienced.

What accidents are you talking about or know of compared to the others?



Edited by donald perry (05/03/12 02:55 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64546 - 05/03/12 03:00 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
After a while you learn where you can push and how and you find a safe place to live within. If what you are saying is true then insureace companies should charge lower rates for new drivers.


Edited by donald perry (05/03/12 03:02 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64554 - 05/03/12 11:36 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
talus Offline
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
No Dp I didn't bring Any studies to back my comments up but follow the logic noob climbers are nervous and quadruple check everything. Experienced leaders do things quickly and without hesitation. Things are often overlooked. The experienced climber climbs more often hence the theory. Also factor in that experienced climbers push safety to its limits and climb harder climbs with more r and x rated climbs and wham my statements have some merit.


no merit what so ever! that is a crook experienced leaders overlook things. i have seen so many new climbers set up shit ass anchors and never seen a experienced leader setup a shitty anchor. it may be quick though bc we know how to place bomber gear. unlike the gym climber from brooklyn that knows how to clip bolted anchors and lower off to set up a TR, instead of building an anchor or even place gear to backup an existing anchor.

what you are saying makes no sense, it's like if i said someone who just started cooking and wants to be a chef. he is not sure what goes with what and has to check the recipe often bc he doesn't know how it should taste but most of time his food will taste better then the experienced chef who knows how just look at ingredients put a dish together quickly. Isn't that the case in NYC?

remember gunks.com is where trolls were invented so good luck with your trolls.
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#64556 - 05/03/12 12:26 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: talus]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
I don't seem to be able to edit my post upstairs, and its better that this sits in a different thread from the condolences.
However, my original statement still stands. The analysis, and any potential remedy you propose (AMC, belay cards, 5 year apprenticeships) is all speculation and entirely worthless until we learn more of the details. It could have been a terrible rookie error, it might have been a guide, we have no idea, and conflicting news reports as the only data source. Some reports even say she was hiking. So feel free to diagnose and treat, but make sure it fits the facts. Since you don't know them, you have a problem. Its awful, and many people are hurting as a result, that's all we know for sure.

The point about watching and correcting folks on the Carriageway is well made. I try to do this all the time, especially drawing attention to sloppy lead belaying which seems to be the #1 issue I see. So yeah to that, but that wasn't the problem here.



Edited by ianmanger (05/03/12 12:33 PM)
Edit Reason: yeah to that

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#64559 - 05/03/12 01:22 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Talus did you even read my comment. I said nothing about noobs building more bomber anchors i simply stated that i believe most climbing accident stem from complacency rather than lack of knowledge. When we rush we make mistakes and when we partake in repetitive actions things are overlooked. I also stated that more more experienced climbers may experience more accident because of these reasons and the fact that they do it more often. It's like if you go to the Mobil on the run and spend half your paycheck on scratch off tickets you are more likely to win an instant lottery game than the guy who buys a game a week. It doesnt necessarily make you smarter or better off you're just more likely to win. Is that not how it is Talus?

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#64561 - 05/03/12 01:29 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
Adrian Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 73

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#64562 - 05/03/12 02:17 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Adrian]
TrappDyke Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 80
Mr. Perry. What would be a fair charge for the AMC to administer this test? $50, $100? Just wondering.

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#64566 - 05/03/12 02:44 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey

Quote:
[DOC]
The 'Gunks of Yore- 1956-63
www.atkinsopht.com/download/gunks50s.p.doc


After having joined the AMC people (the only climbing group there), I was shown a few knots, and tied at my waist into a rope which went up thirty feet or so to a man (Cran Barrow) perched on a ledge and holding the other end. … Cran's rope handling, it was explained, was "belaying".

We few "beginners" did not belay others; not until we had become "seconds" and knew the ropes, a process requiring passage through an "intermediate" stage over a dozen or so weekends, possibly even extending into the next fall or spring season. The Club advertised weekends in the tiny AMC NY Chapter newsletter as for "Beginners", "Intermediates", "Leaders and seconds", and "Leaders only". …

In a few weeks they classified me as "Intermediate" which opened up the weekends for which I was eligible to register. We drove up on Saturday mornings to meet at the Uberfall. I went as often as possible, gradually getting to know the others on climbs, during the two-hour carpooling from Manhattan, and relaxing at day's end around the bar at Schleuter's Mountaincrest Inn where we stayed.

The inn was a kind of bed-and-breakfast on NY 44 a mile or so south of the present Brauhaus. Dinner followed "Happy Hour", and often members showed slides or offered instructional lectures. The inn served breakfast and I think one could order a box lunch for Sunday. The Club kept its ropes and equipment in Schleuter's basement.

The AMC was the sole organizing entity at the cliffs and, until the late fifties, pretty much oversaw all climbing activities. They supervised with what some others had begun to feel as an unwonted obsession with procedure--an understandable outgrowth of the fallout from a fatal accident at Arden earlier in the decade. Parties signed out for climbs and signed back in upon returning safely. The Club trained and the Qualifying Committee approved its leaders and ranked them by experience
and ability as "all fours", "all fives", or "unlimited" leaders.
Fred Saxe on Frog's Head (1956)

Increasingly the Club viewed, with suspicion and some hostility, unapproved leaders from other, especially unfamiliar, groups who had begun to increase in number. College outing clubs such as those from CCNY, Columbia, Yale, Harvard, Syracuse, and the University of Pennsylvania showed up occasionally and increasingly put unwonted pressure on the AMC hegemony.


Friction gradually developed between the Appies, the self appointed arbiters of safety and standards, and the outliers who chafed at the notion of restriction and formality. The AMC felt responsibility to the property owners and looked with suspicion upon the activities of those exploring new and more dangerous territory. A rift opened which culminated in the coalescence of a group of bold and skilled climbers under the rubric of the "Vulgarian Mountain Club", and the history of their press into the realms of higher standards of difficulty, and of their raucous crusade to shock Appie sensibility, became legend. … To my knowledge, before and during my early years at the 'Gunks, no AMC climber there had fallen on the lead.

Although the cliffs occupied the private property of the Mohonk Mountain House, the hotel had no presence at the cliffs. After about 1960 the management asked for fees from the Club to cover changes in insurance but there were never rangers or officials in evidence.



Quote:
When Gunks climbers are ready to lead the way and take responsibility under climbing clubs that require visitors to pass through periods of time and test, the needless accidents will come to an end.

Climbing had to develop over the years out from what the AMC believed. But now we are at the time, with this great influx of peoples, where it is time to go back just far enough to make climbing an accountable activity. Especially for people who otherwise will find their loved ones dead at the end of the day. One death in the Gunks too many, especially when it is preventable. The Gunks does not have to be a trap.


_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64567 - 05/03/12 02:48 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
DP get a job. You have too much free time. As for the AMC they would boot your ass from the preserve. You talk safety yet you solo. Where do you think AMC stands on your safety practices?

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#64568 - 05/03/12 02:48 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: TrappDyke]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: TrappDyke
Mr. Perry. What would be a fair charge for the AMC to administer this test? $50, $100? Just wondering.


I don't know. But in order to guide here you need to be approved. In the same way, why can't their be small clubs that need to be approved. Where we can join where everyone takes care of each other and watches out for each other? Then there would be accountability.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64569 - 05/03/12 02:53 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
alicex4 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 3400
DP, it is climbing, not kumbaya.

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#64570 - 05/03/12 02:58 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
DP get a job. You have too much free time. As for the AMC they would boot your ass from the preserve. You talk safety yet you solo. Where do you think AMC stands on your safety practices?


Well, I think if we had clubs that carried a little insurance, they could decide what flies and what dies. I can imagine we could get away with some things and still be members. If we could someday climb at Skytop I would give up soloing gladly.

And regardless, I bought an Petzl Mini Traxion Pulley and have not done any real soloing in 30 years.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64572 - 05/03/12 03:10 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: TrappDyke]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
A quick glance at the 2006 statistics shows experienced climbers having roughly double the number of accidents as inexperienced. We can shoot lots of holes in the reporting methods but this certainly means something.

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#64573 - 05/03/12 03:14 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
Talus did you even read my comment. I said nothing about noobs building more bomber anchors i simply stated that i believe most climbing accident stem from complacency rather than lack of knowledge. When we rush we make mistakes and when we partake in repetitive actions things are overlooked. I also stated that more more experienced climbers may experience more accident because of these reasons and the fact that they do it more often. It's like if you go to the Mobil on the run and spend half your paycheck on scratch off tickets you are more likely to win an instant lottery game than the guy who buys a game a week. It doesnt necessarily make you smarter or better off you're just more likely to win. Is that not how it is Talus?


yup read it and know how completely wrong you are. but do agree that the more often you do something the chance of overlooking something could happen though experienced climbers tend to be redundant in their systems unlike a new climbers system. tell me how many new climbers to experienced climbers do you see using double ropes? don't play the lottery so...
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#64575 - 05/03/12 03:20 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: chip]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: chip
A quick glance at the 2006 statistics shows experienced climbers having roughly double the number of accidents as inexperienced. We can shoot lots of holes in the reporting methods but this certainly means something.


The time-span of an inexperienced climbers is short in most peoples minds. Take that time, lets say 3 months, and divide that by 30 years, that equals 120. So if an experienced climber has one accident an "inexperienced climber" has 60.

Regardless, being accountable does not make one unaccountable. Getting the insurance for climbing would depend on a plan by experienced climbers to reduce the risks. The report is outside the box.


Edited by donald perry (05/03/12 03:28 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64576 - 05/03/12 03:26 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
As long as it's adults, they should be able to do whatever the Hell they want as long as they don't endanger other non-participants.

As an adult, you choose who you tie in with and how much trust you have in their ability to place anchors/belay/etc... You choose to solo in denim and boots? So be it... as long as you won't kill anyone below you if you fall.

Climbing is sketchy as Hell and we put our faith in all kinds of things we have no knowledge of or control over. Through redundancy we try to reduce those risks but they're still there no matter who you are or how experienced you are. Bolts pull, gear breaks, holds break, rock falls, wasps sting. Hell, entire bus-sized ice curtains have broken and fallen yards from me. And the safety systems work for the large part. I'm always AMAZED more people aren't killed/maimed on a busy climbing weekend.

This poor girl chose to trust the anchor that somebody placed and obviously screwed up. She died. There was no malice. Such is life. That's just a harsh reality of engaging in living. None of us get out alive. ~25 people died yesterday in car accidents too that fully intended to make it home.

So obviously try to educate and help noobs. But just let us remind ourselves that we're all just one bad knot, one moment of distraction, one sharp flake away from total disaster.

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#64577 - 05/03/12 03:36 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: fear]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Donald you seem to get it then you dont. Its the law of averages. The more times you partake in an inherently risky sport the more likely an accident will occur. Knowledge and risk assessment are our friends but while building these pillars of safety we become lax and complacent in other aspects. It only takes one accident to end it all.

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#64578 - 05/03/12 03:39 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Fear: This poor girl chose to trust the anchor that somebody placed and obviously screwed up. She died. There was no malice. Such is life. That's just a harsh reality of engaging in living. None of us get out alive.

DJP: That accident was because of an old school vulgarian mentality, its time now, that's all got to go. It did not have to happen.

Fear: ~25 people died yesterday in car accidents too that fully intended to make it home.

DJP: That was an exception on a road where there is speed limits and traffic laws.


Edited by donald perry (05/03/12 03:56 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64579 - 05/03/12 03:47 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: talus]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Yes double ropes add redundancy very astute observation talus. It also typically results in a trickier belay faster rappels and typically a double rope rappel. I call it a wash in the safety department with the exception being ice climbing. Talus don't lie i know your a scratcher with a dollar and a dream.

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#64581 - 05/03/12 03:58 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5963
Loc: 212 land
Ah, here we go again. I've waited for the thread to "mature" before posting this.
Disasters such as this provoke much discussion on and off the subject. What went wrong? Who's to blame? What to do about it? How may something like this be prevented? Some conversations like this took place after celebrity assassinations, natural and man-made disasters, serial killings by madmen, wars, financial screw-ups and much much more. Silly remedies and preventive measures are proposed. Some entail loss of liberty and freedom by the general populace. Some entail wasteful expenditures.
So what do I propose? Nothing. I think any palliative attempts other than an individual for and by himself are futile at best and a pain in the ass for all at worst.
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#64592 - 05/03/12 05:49 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: chip]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: chip
A quick glance at the 2006 statistics shows experienced climbers having roughly double the number of accidents as inexperienced. We can shoot lots of holes in the reporting methods but this certainly means something.


I have ready access to absolutely no accident statistics... but I can recall 7 fatalities at the Gunks. 6 of them occured to "experienced" climbers. One noob. And even in this latest case, if DJP's overseer organizion (AMC or the equivalent) had approved her partner(s), then all 7 fatalities are associated with "experienced" climbers.

If I add in the other climbers who died elsewhere in NY, the numbers stack even more toward "experienced" climbers dying.

Let's talk about hang gliding accidents instead, OK?

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#64593 - 05/03/12 06:13 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Mike Rawdon]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: chip
A quick glance at the 2006 statistics shows experienced climbers having roughly double the number of accidents as inexperienced. We can shoot lots of holes in the reporting methods but this certainly means something.


I have ready access to absolutely no accident statistics... but I can recall 7 fatalities at the Gunks. 6 of them occured to "experienced" climbers. One noob. And even in this latest case, if DJP's overseer organizion (AMC or the equivalent) had approved her partner(s), then all 7 fatalities are associated with "experienced" climbers.

If I add in the other climbers who died elsewhere in NY, the numbers stack even more toward "experienced" climbers dying.

Let's talk about hang gliding accidents instead, OK?



This would be a different than just looking for experienced climbing. It would have to do with maintaining insurance and a membership based on redued risk. Climbers who do not have those intentions would not be allowed to join the group.

That does not mean that you could not do hard climbs and take short or long falls. But there would be preparation leading up to this. Members would also have to be willing to postpone climbing over their physical limits until they had adequate experience. I can imagine this group would not be for everyone, not everyone is interested in acting within set boundaries and putting some kind of standards for safety first.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64594 - 05/03/12 06:16 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: oenophore]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: oenophore
I think any palliative attempts other than an individual for and by himself are futile at best and a pain in the ass for all at worst.



Do you think you could start a NYC based demolition company with those objectives?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64596 - 05/03/12 06:54 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: oenophore
I think any palliative attempts other than an individual for and by himself are futile at best and a pain in the ass for all at worst.


Do you think you could start a NYC based demolition company with those objectives?

Ding! Wrong answer. You're comparing a recreational activity to a business, with no commonality between the two (although recreational demolition has a certain appeal).
Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

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#64603 - 05/03/12 08:40 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
Donald, as usual I think your heart is in the right place.

But I think you are misguided.

1. Climbers are suspicious of restrictions, with good reason. I know you have conceived of this as a voluntary process but most climbers will worry that the voluntary will become mandatory and for that reason (among others) will oppose it. No one wants access cut off, by the front door or the back door.

2. Have you noticed how many people at the cliff are speaking French or other languages? Ours is not a climbing community made up only or even primarily of locals. Our crag is international, with people regularly driving in from Canada and flying in from other countries. I don't think your proposal is practical given the diverse, far-flung population that climbs here.

3. You offer a solution that solves no existing problem. Training is available already. Anyone who wants to can enroll in all sorts of training classes for climbing, today more than ever before. One can take group classes, go on guided trips, take self-rescue courses, or hire an individual guide to teach proper leading and anchor-building technique. So your proposed AMC curriculum is redundant, except for the certification part, which most people will take objection to. No one wants to be told by someone else when they are ready to lead a 5.6. This isn't the "leader must not fall" era, no matter how much you might wish it were. And if that era were to return, it would not save us from every accident. Surely some accidents result from the leader going beyond his or her abilities, but by no means all.
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#64609 - 05/03/12 10:29 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: SethG]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: SethG
Donald, as usual I think your heart is in the right place.

But I think you are misguided.

1. Climbers are suspicious of restrictions, with good reason. I know you have conceived of this as a voluntary process but most climbers will worry that the voluntary will become mandatory and for that reason (among others) will oppose it. No one wants access cut off, by the front door or the back door.

2. Have you noticed how many people at the cliff are speaking French or other languages? Ours is not a climbing community made up only or even primarily of locals. Our crag is international, with people regularly driving in from Canada and flying in from other countries. I don't think your proposal is practical given the diverse, far-flung population that climbs here.

3. You offer a solution that solves no existing problem. Training is available already. Anyone who wants to can enroll in all sorts of training classes for climbing, today more than ever before. One can take group classes, go on guided trips, take self-rescue courses, or hire an individual guide to teach proper leading and anchor-building technique. So your proposed AMC curriculum is redundant, except for the certification part, which most people will take objection to. No one wants to be told by someone else when they are ready to lead a 5.6. This isn't the "leader must not fall" era, no matter how much you might wish it were. And if that era were to return, it would not save us from every accident. Surely some accidents result from the leader going beyond his or her abilities, but by no means all.



Seth: "… your proposed AMC curriculum is redundant, …" Redundancy is good thing. At this point it would be a redundant "model". If it worked well, was desirable and growing, then everything else would take care of itself.

Seth: "No one wants to be told by someone else when they are ready to lead a 5.6." Some people do, I did. And if they did not like it then they could not be covered under a group insurance policy. Property owners like to be covered by insurance. Property owners like t to know who is on their property.

Seth: ". This isn't the "leader must not fall" era," If you learn how to take falls and place protection at the same time you are learning the hard way. There is a better way.

Seth: ". Surely some accidents result from the leader going beyond his or her abilities,…" I am not talking about staying within abilities but within ethics. The ethic I am speaking of has to do with knowing what you are doing and what is going to happen with certainty beyond reasonable doubt.

Seth: " No one wants access cut off" We are already cut off from access, and for good reasons. Did you ever wonder why the MMH has cut off access? Think about it, do you know how dumb we look right now?

Seth: "Have you noticed how many people at the cliff are speaking French or other languages?" Then there would be some red tape, especially if you know nothing about climbing. But right now I am only speaking of starting a model for a small group. Right now I am the only one saying this.

This is not a big deal, it's very doable and not that difficult to implicate if enough people are willing to work together. How many accidents have the guide services had? In the end I would assume this plan would be somewhere near the same.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64612 - 05/03/12 11:08 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...

"This would be a different than just looking for experienced climbing. It would have to do with maintaining insurance and a membership based on redued risk. Climbers who do not have those intentions would not be allowed to join the group."

So then take the steps to set up this club you think is such a good idea. Nobody is stopping you. Don't expect everyone to agree with your idea - it's simply not going to go that way. But there is nothing whatsoever from stopping to in creating this entity. Best of luck with it!

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#64614 - 05/03/12 11:28 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: TerrieM]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: TerrieM

"This would be a different than just looking for experienced climbing. It would have to do with maintaining insurance and a membership based on redued risk. Climbers who do not have those intentions would not be allowed to join the group."

So then take the steps to set up this club you think is such a good idea. Nobody is stopping you. Don't expect everyone to agree with your idea - it's simply not going to go that way. But there is nothing whatsoever from stopping to in creating this entity. Best of luck with it!


thanks ... my insurance company is looking into it now
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64615 - 05/03/12 11:40 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
PAF Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 33
This whole accident is just awful and now the talk of exclusive climbing clubs has made me all the more disgusted. Do your time, earn your merit badge; we don't need to re-live that. So you enforce it here, do you shove it down every climbing area's throat next? Where does it stop?

I do agree that if you see something "off", by all means possible speak up, but not sure how that would have helped in this case not knowing anything about what went wrong. It's all just speculation till we know the facts.

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#64618 - 05/03/12 11:51 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: oenophore
I think any palliative attempts other than an individual for and by himself are futile at best and a pain in the ass for all at worst.


Do you think you could start a NYC based demolition company with those objectives?


Ding! Wrong answer. You're comparing a recreational activity to a business, with no commonality between the two ...


Are you trying to tell me you are a hillbilly? How would you know there is no difference?

Quote:
Do you own a demolition company with Rigging Licensed Insurance in NYC? Are you a licensed rigger? Do have any OSHA training for tower work? Have you read the Code of Federal Regulations Part 1926 from the department of labor? Do you know what the job of a safety engineer is if he is supervising you? Do you know why there are safety meetings? Do you know why there are inspections? Do you know why there is a demolition plan? Do you know what happens to the job if there is an accident or fatality?





From http://theunionnews.wordpress.com/tag/sweatshop-construction/ The rise in construction fatalities can be explained by a deadly mix of untrained immigrant workers, lax attention to safety regulations and profit-minded contractors who cut corners in all areas from labor to materials.


Edited by donald perry (05/03/12 11:58 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64619 - 05/04/12 12:03 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: PAF]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
We know enough that it should be unnecessary and embarrassing. How many more accidents do we need before we are ready to stop making excuses and do something about it?


Edited by donald perry (05/04/12 12:11 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64620 - 05/04/12 12:12 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
I think your climber/rigger/demolition club is a great idea DJP! Go for it!

First step would be to get your own website together with a forum you can administer to solicit input from all the members.

Godspeed DJP!


Edited by fear (05/04/12 12:12 AM)

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#64621 - 05/04/12 12:15 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: fear
I think your climber/rigger/demolition club is a great idea DJP! Go for it!

First step would be to get your own website together with a forum you can administer to solicit input from all the members.

Godspeed DJP!


Thanks, you can do that if you want the job. Networksolutions makes it easy.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64632 - 05/04/12 04:35 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey


Originally Posted By: alicex4
DP, it is climbing, not kumbaya.


That was-is a parabolic message and wake up call to the Gunks climbing community.

The girl in the video is talking to us. She represents not only one girl but the many climbers who have died here in the Vulgarian age. She was told that she could trust us, but we lied. She was assured by the way the climbing community acts in climbers, people in the climbing stores, people in the gym, that there was nothing to worry about, but we lied. She was doing a climb we call easy. She was told that we are "sorry, but we are not", because this is a "rerun", and the best we can do is look dumb. He is only sorry he got caught in his lie again with a new girl.. She is telling us that it's time for the era of Vulgarianism to go. It is over because she had to go too.

I do not believe we need to go back to the days before the Vulgarians. That is not why I posted that video. The vulgarians were a club. I believe there is a better solution that can be found when we all work together, and when we ask people to join us and provide various amenities, insurance and encourage them to follow modern ethics with limiting risk. Just like with any inner city neighborhood, the Gunks should be the same. This is our turf, and I think we can take better care of it. I think it is possible to implement a reasonable process for this if we put our heads together and are willing to work together in clubs and on the carriage road to make friends with new climbers and ask them to join us.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64636 - 05/04/12 11:22 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey

We love to create delusions. And people can start in a climbing gym and see that we believe climbing is safe.

Very experienced climbers easily forget how long it took for us to get to the point where we are today, and that the way was long and complex, the things we have had to deal with, and we create a deception.

People die. kevin Bein got into an irreversible situation. Bll Ravitch lost his footing and fell of the top of a cliff. Toney Waldrick felt he could make the same traverse along a parapet wall again and fell off a the Macy's building. The salvage tug Turmoil created an inescapable vacuum and a whirlpool when it sunk and drew in Dominick and wrapped him up in rope so he could not escape. These kinds of things people learned from and come to another place.

Oh, you did not know that new climber died on Roseland? And now the light starts to shine and you get a glimpse of where we really stand. But maybe no. Maybe climbing is only safe for you because you know everything. Think again.

When new climbers get themselves into a long epic on a big wall or they have an accident, then perhaps things can start to come into context. But it takes time and in a way a new climber who has a close call can know more then an old climber who is in denial.

This is some serious shit we're playing with, and unless one knows EXACTLY what they are doing they are playing Russian Roulette. And in some instances even when you do know what you are doing it does not make any difference, you are still playing Russian Roulette .

A false sense of calm and awareness can easily be created, and in this way there is a trap that new climbers can fall into.

You cannot just hand anyone a rope and some gear and tell them they can set up a toprope. This is not the first time something like this has happened. New climbers do all kinds of crazy shit. I have seen it first hand. You should see the things they do when they are on big wails. I have seen a lot of that too. Just because it is clear to us, somewhat, does not mean that it is clear to them. Most of them are cluless and they do very stupid things all day long because often their minds get into a haze. And sometimes it can get very annoying. Go climb a big wall with some newbies or bring some new workers on a tower and you will see what I mean.

That is why you cannot blame this death on these people new to climbing. They needed a mentor, that is the *essential thing* that was missing, not that they did not tie the sling correctly. What they did and how they did it is irrelevant.



Edited by donald perry (05/04/12 11:29 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64637 - 05/04/12 11:37 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
keith Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 70
Loc: The beach
Maybe you should start a mentoring program at some of the local climbing gyms. As opposed to trying to regulate the mtns.


Edited by keith (05/04/12 11:43 AM)

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#64642 - 05/04/12 01:14 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: keith]
Adrian Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 73
Come on, people, just stop feeding the troll.

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#64643 - 05/04/12 01:28 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Adrian]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
He's so hungry though!

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#64780 - 05/09/12 05:35 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: mrhutt
There is nothing but pure speculation everywhere on this terrible accident....[a top-rope] death may in fact be faultless and truly a freak accident.


This is not a specualtion about how accidents do happen. You can be understood to be giving advice and information about rockclimbing, and thats OK. But now people need to know, how can top-rope freak accidents happen by chance in cases like this with professionals when they follow proper procedure. This is now an additional issue of concern. Do you have an answer for them?


Edited by donald perry (05/09/12 06:16 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65033 - 05/28/12 10:07 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
The person who set up the top-rope does not know how it happened.

It is believed that the bark on the tree held the slings temporarily in place because of knots, until someone fell and additional weight pulled the knotted slings around the tree and off the top of the climb. For whatever reason, the person [or persons] acting as a guide was distracted and the long chain of slings up to and around the tree was not completed to make a choker. It is not uncommon for new climbers who set up a top-rope together to assume that the other person is completing the rigging.

The error that was made was that the person who set up the top-rope was not yet a competent rock climber and misunderstood that he needed a guide and a mentor. There is a misunderstanding, it takes a few years, and not a few minutes like in a gym, to fully understand rock-climbing. New climbers can be oblivious to this for long periods of time.


Edited by donald perry (05/28/12 10:31 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65047 - 05/29/12 05:44 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
so can "experienced" climbers. Let's not villify every new climber. It's called human error. We are all fallible, and yes, even the mighty RangerRob has been known to make the occasional faux pas. I appreciate what your saying, but let's not forget that the person who built the anchor is assuredly going through their own emotional hell right now. The Free clincis are the positive that came out of this, and it will help climbers avoid critical mistakes more than any online lecture. Keep up the excellent work boys and girls.

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#65091 - 05/31/12 11:53 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: RangerRob]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
I do not think the more experienced climbers and new climbers *can* make the *same kind* of mistakes. I don't think it's his fault, he did not realize he needed a guide and a mentor.

In rock-climbing there must be habitual attentiveness where each and every move needs to be carefully analyzed, and sometimes by more then one competent person. Any deviation from this rule leads to accidents.

Here are some videos where nothing is carefully analyzed, and the results:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81581270/
Turn off the volume or prepare to be annoyed for this one.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82544069/?lt=epe
Helicopter inanimateness to the line by a crew. Here I think the crew is inexperienced and the people in the chopper are distracted by all the people and the cameras. If you climb with a group of people you can be distracted.


Edited by donald perry (05/31/12 12:37 PM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65093 - 05/31/12 12:48 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Originally Posted By: donald perry


In rock-climbing there must be habitual attentiveness where each and every move needs to be carefully analyzed, and sometimes by more then one competent person.


Yeah I always build an anchor at the crux, bring up my partner. He takes a look, we figure out a sequence. I lower him down, and we carry on. If it doesn't work, we repeat this.

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#65094 - 05/31/12 12:57 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
opps I made a mistake, I meant inattentiveness not inanimateness.


Edited by donald perry (05/31/12 12:58 PM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65100 - 05/31/12 02:49 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
retr2327 Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
But inattentiveness can lead to inanimatedness . . .

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#65105 - 05/31/12 04:33 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I do not think the more experienced climbers and new climbers *can* make the *same kind* of mistakes.

You mean like when Lynn Hill neglected to complete tying her knot?

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#65107 - 05/31/12 05:11 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I do not think the more experienced climbers and new climbers *can* make the *same kind* of mistakes.



You mean like when Lynn Hill neglected to complete tying her knot?



No, I mean like after when Lynn Hill neglected to complete tying her knot or after that helicopter pilot crashed his helicopter. If he worked for me I might consider put him right back up there again. Why?


OK, let me ask you a question. Do you think those helicopter pilots or Lynn Hill will be much less likely to make those same kind of rigging mistakes again? I think now they learned to have a hell of a lot more respect for rope than they did before.


Now you may argue that a newbie would have been much more attentive. However, newbies don't know what to have respect or attentiveness for. They worry about the rope breaking. They worry about slipping off buckets. They use up a lot of energy thinking about the wrong things, while the most dangerious thing could be a tick.

I do not think Lynn Hill will forget to tie her knot again. And as long as I keep remembering her I will not make the same mistake, and allow anyone to distract me in the middle of a setup either. And this is likely what happened on Easy K. It's a common mistake when there are a lot of people around. Climbing with a group of people is not the same as climbing with one or two other people. It requires a completly different set of rules, something a newbie would never know anything about.





Edited by donald perry (05/31/12 05:14 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65112 - 05/31/12 06:16 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
That pilot should have gone over with the crew on the ground how the cable was going to be treated and my whom. Obviously there was no plan as there was over four seconds while everyone just watched the man get under the chopper (all oblivious to what was about to happen) and yank on the cable. Nothing was talked or thought out.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65113 - 05/31/12 06:51 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Hey Donald, they have Google over where you live?
Looks like there was a perfectly good plan, and a backup, radio communication, and it still all went wrong, as plans do when people try to cut corners. See "massive rush of blood to the head"

Either that, or you can just continue making shit up to prove whatever point it is you're trying to make. Perhaps "cutting corners" is the issue, but that's not really the point you're making. I'm sure you'll correct yourself ad nauseam.


Originally Posted By: donald perry
That pilot should have gone over with the crew on the ground how the cable was going to be treated and my whom. Obviously there was no plan as there was over four seconds while everyone just watched the man get under the chopper (all oblivious to what was about to happen) and yank on the cable. Nothing was talked or thought out.

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#65114 - 05/31/12 06:52 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I do not think the more experienced climbers and new climbers *can* make the *same kind* of mistakes.



You mean like when Lynn Hill neglected to complete tying her knot?



No, I mean like after when Lynn Hill neglected to complete tying her knot or after that helicopter pilot crashed his helicopter. If he worked for me I might consider put him right back up there again. Why?


OK, let me ask you a question. Do you think those helicopter pilots or Lynn Hill will be much less likely to make those same kind of rigging mistakes again? I think now they learned to have a hell of a lot more respect for rope than they did before.

But that wasn't what you said. You outright rejected the notion that an experienced climber can make the same mistakes as a beginner. Obviously, they can. How they learned from their mistakes is an entirely different discussion.

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#65118 - 05/31/12 10:17 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
From Don: "Obviously there was no plan as there was over four seconds while everyone just watched the man get under the chopper (all oblivious to what was about to happen) and yank on the cable. Nothing was talked or thought out."

From ianmanger: "Looks like there was a perfectly good plan, and a backup, radio communication, and it still all went wrong, as plans do when people try to cut corners. ["rush of blood to the head"]"

From Donald: Your sentence is presenting two ideas that contradict themselves, one of which I already stated. When allow people to cut corners there is no safety first, there is no plan. I am going to deal with each of these things separately, I do not think they belong together anyway.

First: ianmanger wrote: "Looks like there was a perfectly good plan". This is now a legal problem, do you think they are going to tell the truth?, so we have to look at the video first. Everything in the video shows there was no *plan*. If there was a plan it had nothing to do with cable. And if there was no cable in the plan then there was no plan. You can say there was a plan all you want, but there is nothing unexpected, the cable did not shrink, there was no wind, they were just too lazy to do the math and make a plan.

First: ianmanger wrote: "Looks like there was a perfectly good plan". If it was a perfectly good plan there would not have been an accident.

First: ianmanger wrote: "Looks like there was a perfectly good plan, and a backup, radio communication, …" The pilot said he had his own man on the ground. If they all had radio communication with each other, then the spotter would have said something to Anderson under the chopper like, "Get out of there Anderson!, your not part of the plan on the short cable!". The cable problem is obvious, and a "good plan" would have noticed it even before the chopper took off.

Second ianmanger wrote: "… still all went wrong, as plans do when people try to cut corners." OK, so now there is no plan. When there is a plan and then there is no plan 1 – 1 = 0 plans.

Second ianmanger wrote: "… still all went wrong, as plans do when people try to cut corners." I agree, I do not see the spotter objecting to Anderson under the chopper. Anderson is acting as both spotter and rigger, I doubt the pilot's man is telling him to jump up and grab the cable. There is no plan set in stone, nor is there any contemplation or calculation, they don't even know how long the cable is and what that means. This plan is, as you go we all plan ... separately. The pilot was going back up while the rigger is going down. What's the rush?, where is the communication? There is none, there is no plan.

ianmanger wrote: " I'm sure you'll correct yourself ad nauseam." I'm sticking with my story. There was no plan. How could there be? I am sure no one made real plans. So whose fault is it? Probably everyone, this is how they were all preceding I will argue, as can be seen be the emotions of all the people watching.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65119 - 05/31/12 10:30 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
But that wasn't what you said. You outright rejected the notion that an experienced climber can make the same mistakes as a beginner. Obviously, they can. How they learned from their mistakes is an entirely different discussion.

There is a difference between negligence and not knowing. These kinds of things come out in court with the same accident is not the same *kind* of accident. One man will go to jail while another will not.

For example, if I acting as a captain of a cruse ship, put you who have no experience in charge, who is at fault if there is an accident?


Edited by donald perry (05/31/12 10:35 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65120 - 05/31/12 10:54 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Please learn how to use the quote function. Thanks!

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#65121 - 06/01/12 12:12 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
opps, sorry

Originally Posted By: retroscree
But that wasn't what you said. You outright rejected the notion that an experienced climber can make the same mistakes as a beginner. Obviously, they can. How they learned from their mistakes is an entirely different discussion.


There is a difference between negligence and not knowing. These kinds of things come out in court with the same accident is not the same *kind* of accident. One man will go to jail while another will not.

For example, if I acting as a captain of a cruse ship, put you who have no experience in charge, who is at fault if there is an accident?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65122 - 06/01/12 01:02 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
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Ok, first you said there was no plan, then when confronted with evidence to the contrary, you double down?

The pilot says there was a detailed plan. Hmmm who to believe? You or him?

Read what the CAA spokesman said.

"It's possible that we may find the rigger was told to do precisely that in which case the actual cause of the event shifts and it becomes about whether or not the actual plan was a good one," she said.

Thats not what you said. You said there was no plan and now it becomes " there was no plan because there was an accident" So you're not sticking to your point, you're qualifying it. There's a pretty major difference.

Look, put an end to this pointless squabbling, if the final accident report says there was no plan, per your original assertion, I'll buy you a pint.

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#65123 - 06/01/12 01:21 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
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Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Man you never offered to buy us a pint!
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The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65125 - 06/01/12 03:05 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
I think they are all full of shit trying to cover their ass. There is insurance, fines, and who knows what else. OSHA says you need a plan for these kinds of things. But no one can make a plan without knowing how long the cable is. And no one is going to make a plan that calls for working off a short cable. If there was a *plan* they would have discussed what to do with a short cable and stuck to it.

The pilot thought perhaps he would see how close he could get to the ground and the rigger wanted to see how close he could get to the cable. There was no plan. They were just experimenting without any planning.

Look at the camera man, he's hauling ass because he knows the shit is going to hit the fan. It's obvious. They other guys are oblivious to what is about to happen because they assume they guy under the chopper knows what he is doing. Do you think they are all standing there because they are following a plan? The pilot admitted he was going back up.

If there was a plan no one knew what it was. If there was a plan the pilot would have been informed sooner that the cable was too short.


Edited by donald perry (06/01/12 03:09 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65128 - 06/01/12 12:12 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Advocacy group]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
But I enjoy the pointless squabbling with you :-). I know I'm never going to get anywhere. Besides, I have no idea how many 'you' are so it could be a big round. But I would buy you a pint, Chris, anytime.

ps pls keep the invasive species thread going.

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Man you never offered to buy us a pint!

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#65129 - 06/01/12 12:21 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
I'd buy you a case if it would stop you from harrasing us (climbers)!

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#65130 - 06/01/12 12:21 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
But I enjoy the pointless squabbling with you :-). I know I'm never going to get anywhere. Besides, I have no idea how many 'you' are so it could be a big round. But I would buy you a pint, Chris, anytime.

ps pls keep the invasive species thread going.

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Man you never offered to buy us a pint!



The feeling is mutual smile
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65153 - 06/02/12 01:03 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Advocacy group]
cavecanum Offline
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Registered: 06/02/12
Posts: 2
Accidents recorded since 1975 in the Gunks showed higher rates of severe injuries in older (and perhaps more experienced) climbers: http://www.nysspa.org/download/2011abstracts/Rock_Climbing_Accidents.pdf

Experienced climbers have a higher incidence of injury than those with none or little to moderate experience (according to the American and Canadian Alpine Clubs).

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