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#64484 - 05/02/12 02:32 PM Accidents & New Climbers (was Accident @ Blackfly
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: JordanF
This accident is truly tragic, and hard to fathom, considering the preventability. The victim likely didn't think she was taking any serious risk on TR, and trusted her party. I cannot imagine the grief her family is facing, amid the lack of answers or reasons for their loss.
The widespread media coverage will reinforce misconceptions in the public eye regarding climbing safety, unfortunately, and the extreme rarity of a TR failure may not be conveyed.
There are plenty of subtle reminders such as near misses and minor injuries to force safety to the forefront of the community. A needless, preventable death such as this is beyond explanation.






Edited by webmaster (05/02/12 05:22 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64485 - 05/02/12 02:55 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
DP, IMO this has no place here at this time. It is all speculation until we learn more of the details. Please take it down and show some respect.

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#64492 - 05/02/12 03:37 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
Corey Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/02/12
Posts: 1
I agree with Ian. We so t know who set the top rope. They might have been inexperienced climbers. It it is just as likely that they were experienced climbers who got complacent. Which happens a lot more than it should.

I dont think it's fair to blame problems on inexperienced climbers because experienced climbers make just as many mistakes. Not to mention it is the job of the experienced climber to teach the newcomer. If you cut corners when you are teaching then bad habits propagate at the crag.

Either way, lets avoid placing any blame or going into some sort of climbing elitist mode, mistakes were made and enough has already happened to deal with.

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#64494 - 05/02/12 03:54 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
DP, IMO this has no place here at this time. It is all speculation until we learn more of the details. Please take it down and show some respect.


It would be helpful if you learn the context of the post. It is in the context of "A needless, preventable death such as this is beyond explanation." How do you think the person feels who is said to be to blame for such an accident when it is not his fault? How do you think such a post might appear in the minds of those who might be in courts? Just where would you like the blame to rest?

I am sure if I was the one who had this happen to me [or if it was my son or daughter] I would at the very least want there to be some careful consideration along the lines of "what happened", that others would be the wiser and that at the very least my accident would not be in vein and that others might live because of me.

I am simply posting some information on safety. And if the parties to this accident would have read and heeded such information, if such information was available to them, they surly would not have had this accident in the first place. I am sorry if this bothers you, but the point of the matter is that we all need to wise up because we are to blame. We have not been doing our part in creating an informed atmosphere. And when I say "informed" I am talking about you and I, not this party or new climbers. I hope this helps.

Please at least email me privately first if you have anything else. Thanks.


Edited by donald perry (05/02/12 04:42 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64500 - 05/02/12 05:36 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Corey]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Corey
I agree with Ian. We so t know who set the top rope. They might have been inexperienced climbers. It it is just as likely that they were experienced climbers who got complacent. Which happens a lot more than it should.

I dont think it's fair to blame problems on inexperienced climbers because experienced climbers make just as many mistakes. Not to mention it is the job of the experienced climber to teach the newcomer. If you cut corners when you are teaching then bad habits propagate at the crag.

Either way, lets avoid placing any blame or going into some sort of climbing elitist mode, mistakes were made and enough has already happened to deal with.


"I dont think it's fair to blame problems on inexperienced climbers" I was not doing that. Quote me.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#64502 - 05/02/12 05:42 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
DP,

Somebody obviously screwed up a TR anchor on a big tree and a girl died because of it. There's really not much more to say. Is it really important in this case 'how' they screwed it up? What difference would that make DP? This wasn't some intricate lead climbing situation with sketchy gear that we could all learn from.

Some people feel the need to assign blame with every accident that happens. Maybe that makes you feel more in control like you'll never screw anything up?

We all know beginners make more mistakes and sometimes they die because of them. That's part of growing up. Could be in a car oron a rock.

But in this situation the only guy that knows what happened is the one who rigged that anchor. I think of the stupid shit I did 20 years ago and just thank God nothing like that happened to me or my friends.


Edited by fear (05/02/12 05:48 PM)

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#64505 - 05/02/12 06:02 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
That is not exactly what my post was about. I was trying to say we need to talk to newbies and tell them to see a guide first and then give up the idea of falling for quite a while until later.

Have you walked down the carriage road lately? Next time you do I want you to stop and watch some party for a little while. That is what I do. Keep an eye on them and say something, I guarantee you will see something horrifying before too long.

I have not been around there lately, but I will tell you what I see next time I go down there. I have found wrongly tied knots, open lockers, half tied harnesses, and general improper procedure. You know the scean. [One time I found two guys aiding with hooks on Gill problems and holds were being broken off.] And then I give them advice or a stern warning. I think we need to start doing this as a habbit.

What do you think?


Edited by donald perry (05/02/12 06:54 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#64531 - 05/03/12 01:08 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
I understand that some of you do not agree with me. And I don't know why you don't send me a private letter. Perhaps I should try and explain again what I am saying because I don't think I have made myself clear enough: What I am posting about or why I am posting this and that in the accident thread. There are a couple of things going on here.

First, I see in some of these letters that I am being taken out of context.

Second, in the thread we have: "hard to fathom, considering the preventability … A needless, preventable death such as this is beyond explanation." "nothing like this should happen, ever." Whether you want to admit it or not there is blame in the thread and the message is that the person that set up the top rope has blood on his hands. And maybe you are OK with that, but I'm not. I am sure the accident was not intentional; accidents do not have to be anyone's fault per-say. But it is the fault of the climbing community. And when these kinds of statements are made in the thread they need to be answered in the tread because family members and the people who set up the anchor will be reading them. Such thinking is misplaced. They refused to take into account that we are just as reckless as the persons who set up that anchor, and we will continue to be reckless, it is just on another level.

Third, this is not a legitimate climbing accident because these people involved were not any more climbers then they were mountaineers. It is more so an unfortunate chain of events and misconceptions that lead up to a realization of what rock-climbing is.

Fourth, there are a number of ways something like this could have happened that are easy to explain that would prove it was not the fault of the person who set up the rope. I went over all these at length to take heat off the party that set up the rope but now the heat is back on big time. We have yet to know what happened. What's up with that?

But I can tell you what will mean something, and that is if Stephanie's death is not in vain. That would be if we promise to talk to others on the carriage road and new climbers and remember Stephanie. Then there is a point in all these things and all these posts when Stephanie means something to all of us. Everything else is meaningless unless we can do something to help prevent the next accident.

Is this something we can do? Perhaps can we start talking to people and learning how to help them prevent accidents? If not, if we cannot be self governing, I would assume that sooner or later the state will need to step in and take over. The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications. And in this way climbing could be opened up again in places where it has been banned.

What do you think?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#64533 - 05/03/12 01:15 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


You've got to be kidding.

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#64535 - 05/03/12 01:31 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Mike Rawdon]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


You've got to be kidding.


Why?, what is wrong with that? You would pass and then that would be the end. If you helped support the AMC we could put an end to most of these clueless deaths and accidents.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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