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#64537 - 05/03/12 02:01 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


Really? Most accidents are experienced climbers becoming complacent eg rapping off ends of rope of forgetting to tie in. Shit happens. This is a tragedy and my condolences to the young girls family. I however doubt I will gain insight into climbing safety from a tr failure and amc is totally unnecessary. Dp don't talk safety to anyone I've seen you free soloing frogs head in denims and mountaineering boots. You looked sketchy as hell. Im glad we aren't talking about you but c'mon don't even hint at safety you're foolish.

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#64538 - 05/03/12 02:02 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


You've got to be kidding.



What is the issue Mike Rawdon? They do it for scuba diving.........
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The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64540 - 05/03/12 02:08 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


Really? Most accidents are experienced climbers becoming complacent eg rapping off ends of rope of forgetting to tie in.


I don't believe that is true. You got a study to back that up?
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64541 - 05/03/12 02:16 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
Originally Posted By: donald perry
The best solution however would be that the Preserve allow the AMC to require safety certifications for climbing as they did before. And I think today that the climbing community should and would support such certifications.


Really? Most accidents are experienced climbers becoming complacent eg rapping off ends of rope of forgetting to tie in. Shit happens. This is a tragedy and my condolences to the young girls family. I however doubt I will gain insight into climbing safety from a tr failure and amc is totally unnecessary. Dp don't talk safety to anyone I've seen you free soloing frogs head in denims and mountaineering boots. You looked sketchy as hell. Im glad we aren't talking about you but c'mon don't even hint at safety you're foolish.



Not sure what the denims and mountaineering boots have to do with anything..........John McEnroe could still beat anyone on this forum in denims and mountaineering boots......
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64542 - 05/03/12 02:17 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
No Dp I didn't bring Any studies to back my comments up but follow the logic noob climbers are nervous and quadruple check everything. Experienced leaders do things quickly and without hesitation. Things are often overlooked. The experienced climber climbs more often hence the theory. Also factor in that experienced climbers push safety to its limits and climb harder climbs with more r and x rated climbs and wham my statements have some merit.

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#64543 - 05/03/12 02:29 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
No Dp I didn't bring Any studies to back my comments up but follow the logic noob climbers are nervous and quadruple check everything. Experienced leaders do things quickly and without hesitation. Things are often overlooked. The experienced climber climbs more often hence the theory. Also factor in that experienced climbers push safety to its limits and climb harder climbs with more r and x rated climbs and wham my statements have some merit.



What you say about experienced climbers is the antithesis of our experience
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#64544 - 05/03/12 02:41 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
No Dp I didn't bring Any studies to back my comments up but follow the logic noob climbers are nervous and quadruple check everything. Experienced leaders do things quickly and without hesitation. Things are often overlooked. The experienced climber climbs more often hence the theory. Also factor in that experienced climbers push safety to its limits and climb harder climbs with more r and x rated climbs and wham my statements have some merit.


I know about all the accidents, and I have seen all the accidents, I have seen it all and you are wrong. Yes there were some mishaps, but most of those where after countless hours, not based so much on experience and lack of attentiveness, but more so on time and chance.

Accidents can be greatly reduced, your attention is misguided. The focus needs to be on beginners not so much on experienced climbers. I would estimate that there is 95 newbie accidents to 5 for experienced climbers. And when I say experienced I am talking 5 years experienced.

What accidents are you talking about or know of compared to the others?



Edited by donald perry (05/03/12 02:55 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64546 - 05/03/12 03:00 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: New Jersey
After a while you learn where you can push and how and you find a safe place to live within. If what you are saying is true then insureace companies should charge lower rates for new drivers.


Edited by donald perry (05/03/12 03:02 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64554 - 05/03/12 11:36 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
No Dp I didn't bring Any studies to back my comments up but follow the logic noob climbers are nervous and quadruple check everything. Experienced leaders do things quickly and without hesitation. Things are often overlooked. The experienced climber climbs more often hence the theory. Also factor in that experienced climbers push safety to its limits and climb harder climbs with more r and x rated climbs and wham my statements have some merit.


no merit what so ever! that is a crook experienced leaders overlook things. i have seen so many new climbers set up shit ass anchors and never seen a experienced leader setup a shitty anchor. it may be quick though bc we know how to place bomber gear. unlike the gym climber from brooklyn that knows how to clip bolted anchors and lower off to set up a TR, instead of building an anchor or even place gear to backup an existing anchor.

what you are saying makes no sense, it's like if i said someone who just started cooking and wants to be a chef. he is not sure what goes with what and has to check the recipe often bc he doesn't know how it should taste but most of time his food will taste better then the experienced chef who knows how just look at ingredients put a dish together quickly. Isn't that the case in NYC?

remember gunks.com is where trolls were invented so good luck with your trolls.
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#64556 - 05/03/12 12:26 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: talus]
ianmanger Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
I don't seem to be able to edit my post upstairs, and its better that this sits in a different thread from the condolences.
However, my original statement still stands. The analysis, and any potential remedy you propose (AMC, belay cards, 5 year apprenticeships) is all speculation and entirely worthless until we learn more of the details. It could have been a terrible rookie error, it might have been a guide, we have no idea, and conflicting news reports as the only data source. Some reports even say she was hiking. So feel free to diagnose and treat, but make sure it fits the facts. Since you don't know them, you have a problem. Its awful, and many people are hurting as a result, that's all we know for sure.

The point about watching and correcting folks on the Carriageway is well made. I try to do this all the time, especially drawing attention to sloppy lead belaying which seems to be the #1 issue I see. So yeah to that, but that wasn't the problem here.



Edited by ianmanger (05/03/12 12:33 PM)
Edit Reason: yeah to that

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