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#65272 - 06/05/12 02:59 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: whatthegunks]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: whatthegunks
Convenient anchors makes sense.


Sure. But I see that as a "lowest common denominator" factor in decision-making.

It all depends on your approach to the decision.

I'd like to think decisions get made based on the factors I outlined way above -- consistency with historical precedence and practice, consistency across the cliff, overall people-management needs, "leave no trace" principles.

Certainly, the overall gist of what the community thinks should matter, but that's very difficult to really determine.

I'd like to think factors like convenience, or the sanitizing of all possible dangers, come in a distant third.

But ... the great world turns, and things stay the same.

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#65275 - 06/05/12 03:24 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Julie]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I've already explained that the question of fixed gear on the cliff has nothing to do with the pristine wilderness concept; that is a straw man argument that both misunderstands and avoids the real issue.

The fact that the Trapps is "one of the most popular sections of crag in the world" is by no means a prima facie argument for installing convenience anchors. Rather, it is a test of whether appropriate management strategies can preserve trad climbing, or whether population pressures must inevitably overwhelm the genre and leave in its stead a bastardized version of sport climbing with gear, as is happening even on the great routes in Europe (for example, the NW face of the Piz Badile, done in 1937, now sports bolted anchors at every belay stance).

Maybe Joe hasn't observed top-roping there, but it is clear that other people have, and the thread includes a post from someone who likes to do it. As 70 meter single ropes become more common, the ability to top rope SOEO easily will increase and so will the prevalence of the activity.

As for what makes sense, "convenient" anchors like the one on SOEO don't make even a shred of sense when they send rappelling parties straight down the climbing route.

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#65276 - 06/05/12 04:58 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: rg@ofmc]
OldEric Offline
newbie

Registered: 05/20/02
Posts: 48
Not sure in anyone is keeping a tally - plus as has been mentioned the denizens of this site are a minority of those that would be interested in the existence of this anchor - but my vote is to remove it. I can't really elaborate any more then what has already been said. It's a convenience anchor pure and simple.

I am no wheres as much a local as most who have posted on this thread but I have climbed SOEO dozens of times over the past 40 years and walked off the vast majority of those climbs. Simple efficient and fun. I always make a point about being careful concerning the rubble at the top and making sure my partner(s) are aware of it too.

In the past few years I have seen it being TR-ed a lot and would venture that the majority of the ascents today are of the TR ilk. As has been mentioned it is pretty frustrating to have a moderate G rated climb tied up by a bunch of self-riotous topropers.

I think focusing on things like self sufficiency, being aware of loose debris and the consequences and being courteous regarding leaders priority would go along way towards persevering the trad ethics that are about to go down for the count.

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#65277 - 06/05/12 05:31 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: OldEric]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: OldEric
As has been mentioned it is pretty frustrating to have a moderate G rated climb tied up by a bunch of self-riotous topropers.

As in able to riot on their own? smile
Yeah, chop it and see if it's rebuilt in 2 weeks/months/years.

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#65279 - 06/05/12 05:50 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: OldEric]
johnm Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 36
The gunks are crowded. Let's try to be friendly.
The worst thing that happens at the gunks is
hostility.

Unlike Bill, I think that there are many sides to
this. I don't really care about this one anchor,
and I don't think there's an obvious solution.
Removing the anchor won't stop the top-roping,
besides, top roping is fun.

RG's comments about putting an anchor to the side
seems good (so people don't rap the climb),
but people will then make a directional at the
current anchor if they can. And it would mean establishing
another anchor - heavens!

RG's comments that only incompetent parties knock
rocks down seems exaggerated.

If everyone walked off routes then people would
probably be complaining about the resulting
damage and debris falling. More incompetent parties
at the tops of climbs, eh? (this point has been made before).

I cast my vote for chopping and replacing the anchor
many times and everyone freaking out.

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#65281 - 06/05/12 07:09 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: johnm]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: johnm
RG's comments that only incompetent parties knock rocks down seems exaggerated.

When I was guiding, I somehow managed, many many times, to take one or two total beginners on Easy O, belay them up to the top with all the piles of rope and other things that have to be managed, coil up the ropes and change from climbing shoes to walking shoes, and never have them or me roll so much as a tiny pebble over the edge.

If a guide and two rank beginners can manage this over and over again, then you're incompetent if you are knocking stuff over, I don't care how long you've been climbing and what elevated grades you crush.

Maybe we need an evening guide's clinic on how to pay attention to what the hell you are doing? It ain't rocket science.

But this is just a grouchy old rant. It is abundantly clear that we can't get climbers, apparently even "strong experienced" ones, to pay attention to what the hell they are doing. The only way to deal with this general incompetence is to either keep an anchor below the top or else work on the top to make it safe for the distracted masses.

Originally Posted By: johnm
RG's comments about putting an anchor to the side seems good (so people don't rap the climb), but people will then make a directional at the current anchor if they can. And it would mean establishing another anchor - heavens!

Heavens indeed---that's not what was proposing, which was to eliminate the current anchor and replace it with one over Hether (if the cracks for doing so are there).

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#65284 - 06/05/12 08:36 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: johnm]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 850
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Everyone is due their opinion and the opportunity to voice it. But, I disagree w/ you on one point, it should be evident to you whether you're an old hand or a newbie. The worst thing that happens at the Gunks is people can be injured or killed. Thus the concern over anchors, regardless of the intended use or location.

Originally Posted By: johnm

The worst thing that happens at the gunks is
hostility.

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#65287 - 06/05/12 09:13 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: OldEric]
Bill Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 85
Loc: Mass Land
Quote:
by a bunch of self-riotous topropers.


Yeah. Brings back some awful memories. One moment Eric and I are standing there minding our own business and the next minute we are swept up in a maelstrom of self-riotous topropers. Some of the bruises are still healing. I do believe Eric's recent surgery was a result of the beating we took that day, but then I might be wrong. I often am. grin

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#65298 - 06/06/12 01:20 AM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: rg@ofmc]
schwortz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 308
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc

Maybe we need an evening guide's clinic on how to pay attention to what the hell you are doing? It ain't rocket science.


nice!

chop chop!

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#65302 - 06/06/12 02:43 AM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: schwortz]
TrappDyke Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 80
R.G., the erosion is much worse now than it was even five years ago. I'm a very careful climber, have never been hurt, or hurt anyone else. When I top out on Easy O and rap Baby I pretend I'm a ninja so not to knock off one pebble. I'm not clumsy. I can walk a slack line, walk on my hands, and even balance a baseball bat on my nose. Despite my considerations and skills I've still managed to knock rocks off the top. In another ten years of traffic, the top out will be a completely eroded mess and the tree on Baby will be dead. How this scenario is better than placing two bolts completely baffles me.

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