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#64661 - 05/04/12 04:43 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Julie]
stoopid Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 67
Loc: West Sand Lake, NY
Not sure the preserve encourages chopping or removal of anchors, any more than they want people adding anchors. I would assume the gunks climber's coalition helps navigate these waters?

I can see the points made about the 70m requirement. Unfortunately the existing anchor/rap station being used can still be confused as a 60m rap. I know I thought it was a few years ago after doing Easy O (ending at the anchor being discussed, not realizing there was more climbing above), noticing after I started to rappel the ends weren't down, and moving left to the station above Easy O's first pitch. So what I'm suggesting is that the current setup is already being confused by some as a 60m rap line, and as far as I know no one has rap'd off the end of their ropes (yet). I don't assume as a Gunks climber that every rappel will get me to the bottom. Once into the rappel it's easy to look down the wall and see if your ends are down, assuming there isn't a line of climbers down there who can confirm it. It's just as easy to move left and get to the next anchors above pitch 1 of Easy O. To say it can't or doesn't currently serve as a rappel station with a 60m is false, since it already does.

So the conclusion by some in this thread is to remove the anchor but I don't see the reasons provided as bullet proof.

The route gets a lot of traffic. There are bolted anchors at the top of numerous climbs in that area (Frog's Head, Laural/Rhodo, Apoplexy, Jackie, etc) that primarily serve as top roping and rappel locations for those popular climbs. This request isn't a stretch.

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#64662 - 05/04/12 04:48 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: stoopid]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
For what it's worth: a climber informed me a couple of years ago that he tried hacking the Son of Easy O anchor, he reported that the hardware was almost irretrievably stuck.

I've always done the route as a single pitch and belayed at that anchor. I treat it like a single piece, place two more, and bring up my follower. From there, we do a short roped scramble to the top and descend from any of the myriad choices nearby.

And if you think the start moves on Son of Easy O are slick now, wait until masses of top-ropers have their hands and feet on it...

Nothing much left to say after Professor Goldstone has already laid out a clear case on this issue.

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#64663 - 05/04/12 04:50 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: stoopid]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Hey stoopid*, I'm not talking about rapping. I'm talking about clip & lowering. Every other bolted P1 anchor at the Gunks, you can climb, clip & lower on a 60m, which, like it or not, is how a lot of people climb. It would be a dangerous inconsistency to have one sole exception.

*sorry, had to ;-). No tone meant in reality.

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#64664 - 05/04/12 04:58 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Lucander]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: Lucander
For what it's worth: a climber informed me a couple of years ago that he tried hacking the Son of Easy O anchor, he reported that the hardware was almost irretrievably stuck.


Well, the webbing can't be that stuck. Leave what won't come out, but remove the software.

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#64665 - 05/04/12 05:13 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Julie]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
For the record I dont see anyone arguing that a 70m station is dangerous also arguing to leave the current anchor in place, and most have explicitly suggested that it be removed.

There is no inconsistency here.

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#64666 - 05/04/12 05:47 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Mark Heyman]
mummert Offline
journeyman

Registered: 11/16/99
Posts: 96
Loc: Danbury, CT, USA

Before anybody starts to believe that there's unanimous consensus in removing this anchor:

I enjoy the fact that the anchor is there. I have 70m ropes, and I like being able to run the two pitches together and get back to the ground. I also like to do the same on Welcome to the Gunks -- which also requires a 70m.

Secondly, how many accidents would have been prevented in the past if the anchor wasn't there?

Thirdly, all anchors in the Gunks are convenience anchors. Don't pretend that the ones you happen to use are somehow different than the ones others use.

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#64667 - 05/04/12 05:57 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: mummert]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Mark, Stoopid was making the point that the station works perfectly fine when using one 60m to rap; and he also would like to see bolts added. In my understanding, he was ignoring the inconsistency of the "clip & lower from here!" signal that bolts send, and that is a dangerous inconsistency when those bolts need a 70m.

Originally Posted By: mummert
Thirdly, all anchors in the Gunks are convenience anchors. Don't pretend that the ones you happen to use are somehow different than the ones others use.


That's truth.

As far as consensus -- I'm only expressing my own opinion, and also trying to point out what an "ethical" consensus might comprise in terms of reasoning.

I should also admit that one of my reasons for removing that station is to lower the amount of gang-roping that takes the route out of play for long periods of time. Not that I haven't done that myself, even.

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#64668 - 05/04/12 06:06 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Julie]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Maybe as a bit of a reaction to the recent death, there are multiple threads where "making things safe(r) for the clueless" is a recurring theme. Perhaps we should remember that even the National Park Service in places like Yosemite, Zion, Grand Canyon, Mt. Ranier, etc. is now making a strong point in their literature and signage:

"Your safety is your responsibility."

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#64669 - 05/04/12 06:28 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: retroscree]
jhurwitz Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/04/12
Posts: 14
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
I'll throw in my vote : Leave the existing anchor and make it cleaner and safer (if necessary) using pins.

It does need some work. A year or two ago I removed two of the really crappy tri-cams (possibly an old pin as well? - I forget) on the right and added the right-most pin. Unfortunately, I didn't have a quicklink on me and threw in the multiple wrapped 1" flat webbing. I'd like to find a way to completely remove the useless crap that's up there like a couple of the old tri-cams. I don't believe that these should ever be bashed in to back up anchors as the webbing goes bad and it ends up being useless trash and in the way.

I'm okay with rap anchors being present to assist us in our endeavors and I prefer to lower off that station rather than climbing the extra 20' to the gravelly top and risk dropping rocks. I completely disagree with the argument of rap stations all being set up for 60 meter lines. Read a guidebook and/or take a clear notice that your ends are not on the ground. Perhaps your belayer noticed that you climbed past a middle-mark on the rope if you have one? If climbers are not paying attention to their systems, no amount of foresight in the world will stop them from, eventually, screwing up and hurting themselves or others.

That's my 2 cents!

If anyone has any ideas on the best way to remove the old dead-head tri-cams without damaging the rock, please offer them up. I've already tried using a wall hammer and removed the 2 old ones that way. My one thought was to drill holes in the aluminum and collapse and remove them. Not an easy task!

-Jason

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#64670 - 05/04/12 06:52 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: retroscree]
retr2327 Offline
member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 108
In general, I'd agree that climbers should be capable of topping out without raining stones down on those below. (By the same token, they should also be capable of using rap stations without rapping off the ends because they weren't paying attention). But for the top of Son of Easy O in particular, I'm not a big fan of having more people top out: it tends to turn into a gravel driveway up there, such that topping out, moving around, bringing up the rope, etc. without disloding various pebbles is a real problem even if you're really paying attention.

Given the number of people milling about down below (and the number of climbers who can't seem to avoid disloding stones even when it's easy), I'm not in favor of chopping the anchor and telling everyone to just top out.

Personally, I like the existing rap station just fine. I'd also have no problem with it if the powers that be wanted to put bolts there instead.

As for the length issue, climb on doubles; problem solved. (And yes, I know that's not going to work for everyone).

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