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#64559 - 05/03/12 01:22 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Talus did you even read my comment. I said nothing about noobs building more bomber anchors i simply stated that i believe most climbing accident stem from complacency rather than lack of knowledge. When we rush we make mistakes and when we partake in repetitive actions things are overlooked. I also stated that more more experienced climbers may experience more accident because of these reasons and the fact that they do it more often. It's like if you go to the Mobil on the run and spend half your paycheck on scratch off tickets you are more likely to win an instant lottery game than the guy who buys a game a week. It doesnt necessarily make you smarter or better off you're just more likely to win. Is that not how it is Talus?

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#64561 - 05/03/12 01:29 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
Adrian Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 73

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#64562 - 05/03/12 02:17 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Adrian]
TrappDyke Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 80
Mr. Perry. What would be a fair charge for the AMC to administer this test? $50, $100? Just wondering.

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#64566 - 05/03/12 02:44 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey

Quote:
[DOC]
The 'Gunks of Yore- 1956-63
www.atkinsopht.com/download/gunks50s.p.doc


After having joined the AMC people (the only climbing group there), I was shown a few knots, and tied at my waist into a rope which went up thirty feet or so to a man (Cran Barrow) perched on a ledge and holding the other end. … Cran's rope handling, it was explained, was "belaying".

We few "beginners" did not belay others; not until we had become "seconds" and knew the ropes, a process requiring passage through an "intermediate" stage over a dozen or so weekends, possibly even extending into the next fall or spring season. The Club advertised weekends in the tiny AMC NY Chapter newsletter as for "Beginners", "Intermediates", "Leaders and seconds", and "Leaders only". …

In a few weeks they classified me as "Intermediate" which opened up the weekends for which I was eligible to register. We drove up on Saturday mornings to meet at the Uberfall. I went as often as possible, gradually getting to know the others on climbs, during the two-hour carpooling from Manhattan, and relaxing at day's end around the bar at Schleuter's Mountaincrest Inn where we stayed.

The inn was a kind of bed-and-breakfast on NY 44 a mile or so south of the present Brauhaus. Dinner followed "Happy Hour", and often members showed slides or offered instructional lectures. The inn served breakfast and I think one could order a box lunch for Sunday. The Club kept its ropes and equipment in Schleuter's basement.

The AMC was the sole organizing entity at the cliffs and, until the late fifties, pretty much oversaw all climbing activities. They supervised with what some others had begun to feel as an unwonted obsession with procedure--an understandable outgrowth of the fallout from a fatal accident at Arden earlier in the decade. Parties signed out for climbs and signed back in upon returning safely. The Club trained and the Qualifying Committee approved its leaders and ranked them by experience
and ability as "all fours", "all fives", or "unlimited" leaders.
Fred Saxe on Frog's Head (1956)

Increasingly the Club viewed, with suspicion and some hostility, unapproved leaders from other, especially unfamiliar, groups who had begun to increase in number. College outing clubs such as those from CCNY, Columbia, Yale, Harvard, Syracuse, and the University of Pennsylvania showed up occasionally and increasingly put unwonted pressure on the AMC hegemony.


Friction gradually developed between the Appies, the self appointed arbiters of safety and standards, and the outliers who chafed at the notion of restriction and formality. The AMC felt responsibility to the property owners and looked with suspicion upon the activities of those exploring new and more dangerous territory. A rift opened which culminated in the coalescence of a group of bold and skilled climbers under the rubric of the "Vulgarian Mountain Club", and the history of their press into the realms of higher standards of difficulty, and of their raucous crusade to shock Appie sensibility, became legend. … To my knowledge, before and during my early years at the 'Gunks, no AMC climber there had fallen on the lead.

Although the cliffs occupied the private property of the Mohonk Mountain House, the hotel had no presence at the cliffs. After about 1960 the management asked for fees from the Club to cover changes in insurance but there were never rangers or officials in evidence.



Quote:
When Gunks climbers are ready to lead the way and take responsibility under climbing clubs that require visitors to pass through periods of time and test, the needless accidents will come to an end.

Climbing had to develop over the years out from what the AMC believed. But now we are at the time, with this great influx of peoples, where it is time to go back just far enough to make climbing an accountable activity. Especially for people who otherwise will find their loved ones dead at the end of the day. One death in the Gunks too many, especially when it is preventable. The Gunks does not have to be a trap.


_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64567 - 05/03/12 02:48 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
DP get a job. You have too much free time. As for the AMC they would boot your ass from the preserve. You talk safety yet you solo. Where do you think AMC stands on your safety practices?

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#64568 - 05/03/12 02:48 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: TrappDyke]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: TrappDyke
Mr. Perry. What would be a fair charge for the AMC to administer this test? $50, $100? Just wondering.


I don't know. But in order to guide here you need to be approved. In the same way, why can't their be small clubs that need to be approved. Where we can join where everyone takes care of each other and watches out for each other? Then there would be accountability.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64569 - 05/03/12 02:53 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
alicex4 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/05/00
Posts: 3400
DP, it is climbing, not kumbaya.

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#64570 - 05/03/12 02:58 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
DP get a job. You have too much free time. As for the AMC they would boot your ass from the preserve. You talk safety yet you solo. Where do you think AMC stands on your safety practices?


Well, I think if we had clubs that carried a little insurance, they could decide what flies and what dies. I can imagine we could get away with some things and still be members. If we could someday climb at Skytop I would give up soloing gladly.

And regardless, I bought an Petzl Mini Traxion Pulley and have not done any real soloing in 30 years.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64572 - 05/03/12 03:10 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: TrappDyke]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
A quick glance at the 2006 statistics shows experienced climbers having roughly double the number of accidents as inexperienced. We can shoot lots of holes in the reporting methods but this certainly means something.

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#64573 - 05/03/12 03:14 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
Originally Posted By: worthrussell
Talus did you even read my comment. I said nothing about noobs building more bomber anchors i simply stated that i believe most climbing accident stem from complacency rather than lack of knowledge. When we rush we make mistakes and when we partake in repetitive actions things are overlooked. I also stated that more more experienced climbers may experience more accident because of these reasons and the fact that they do it more often. It's like if you go to the Mobil on the run and spend half your paycheck on scratch off tickets you are more likely to win an instant lottery game than the guy who buys a game a week. It doesnt necessarily make you smarter or better off you're just more likely to win. Is that not how it is Talus?


yup read it and know how completely wrong you are. but do agree that the more often you do something the chance of overlooking something could happen though experienced climbers tend to be redundant in their systems unlike a new climbers system. tell me how many new climbers to experienced climbers do you see using double ropes? don't play the lottery so...
_________________________
John Okner Photography

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