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#64575 - 05/03/12 03:20 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: chip]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: chip
A quick glance at the 2006 statistics shows experienced climbers having roughly double the number of accidents as inexperienced. We can shoot lots of holes in the reporting methods but this certainly means something.


The time-span of an inexperienced climbers is short in most peoples minds. Take that time, lets say 3 months, and divide that by 30 years, that equals 120. So if an experienced climber has one accident an "inexperienced climber" has 60.

Regardless, being accountable does not make one unaccountable. Getting the insurance for climbing would depend on a plan by experienced climbers to reduce the risks. The report is outside the box.


Edited by donald perry (05/03/12 03:28 PM)
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The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64576 - 05/03/12 03:26 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
As long as it's adults, they should be able to do whatever the Hell they want as long as they don't endanger other non-participants.

As an adult, you choose who you tie in with and how much trust you have in their ability to place anchors/belay/etc... You choose to solo in denim and boots? So be it... as long as you won't kill anyone below you if you fall.

Climbing is sketchy as Hell and we put our faith in all kinds of things we have no knowledge of or control over. Through redundancy we try to reduce those risks but they're still there no matter who you are or how experienced you are. Bolts pull, gear breaks, holds break, rock falls, wasps sting. Hell, entire bus-sized ice curtains have broken and fallen yards from me. And the safety systems work for the large part. I'm always AMAZED more people aren't killed/maimed on a busy climbing weekend.

This poor girl chose to trust the anchor that somebody placed and obviously screwed up. She died. There was no malice. Such is life. That's just a harsh reality of engaging in living. None of us get out alive. ~25 people died yesterday in car accidents too that fully intended to make it home.

So obviously try to educate and help noobs. But just let us remind ourselves that we're all just one bad knot, one moment of distraction, one sharp flake away from total disaster.

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#64577 - 05/03/12 03:36 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: fear]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Donald you seem to get it then you dont. Its the law of averages. The more times you partake in an inherently risky sport the more likely an accident will occur. Knowledge and risk assessment are our friends but while building these pillars of safety we become lax and complacent in other aspects. It only takes one accident to end it all.

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#64578 - 05/03/12 03:39 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Fear: This poor girl chose to trust the anchor that somebody placed and obviously screwed up. She died. There was no malice. Such is life. That's just a harsh reality of engaging in living. None of us get out alive.

DJP: That accident was because of an old school vulgarian mentality, its time now, that's all got to go. It did not have to happen.

Fear: ~25 people died yesterday in car accidents too that fully intended to make it home.

DJP: That was an exception on a road where there is speed limits and traffic laws.


Edited by donald perry (05/03/12 03:56 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64579 - 05/03/12 03:47 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: talus]
worthrussell Offline
journeyman

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 90
Loc: NY, Brooklyn
Yes double ropes add redundancy very astute observation talus. It also typically results in a trickier belay faster rappels and typically a double rope rappel. I call it a wash in the safety department with the exception being ice climbing. Talus don't lie i know your a scratcher with a dollar and a dream.

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#64581 - 05/03/12 03:58 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: worthrussell]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5969
Loc: 212 land
Ah, here we go again. I've waited for the thread to "mature" before posting this.
Disasters such as this provoke much discussion on and off the subject. What went wrong? Who's to blame? What to do about it? How may something like this be prevented? Some conversations like this took place after celebrity assassinations, natural and man-made disasters, serial killings by madmen, wars, financial screw-ups and much much more. Silly remedies and preventive measures are proposed. Some entail loss of liberty and freedom by the general populace. Some entail wasteful expenditures.
So what do I propose? Nothing. I think any palliative attempts other than an individual for and by himself are futile at best and a pain in the ass for all at worst.
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#64592 - 05/03/12 05:49 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: chip]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: chip
A quick glance at the 2006 statistics shows experienced climbers having roughly double the number of accidents as inexperienced. We can shoot lots of holes in the reporting methods but this certainly means something.


I have ready access to absolutely no accident statistics... but I can recall 7 fatalities at the Gunks. 6 of them occured to "experienced" climbers. One noob. And even in this latest case, if DJP's overseer organizion (AMC or the equivalent) had approved her partner(s), then all 7 fatalities are associated with "experienced" climbers.

If I add in the other climbers who died elsewhere in NY, the numbers stack even more toward "experienced" climbers dying.

Let's talk about hang gliding accidents instead, OK?

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#64593 - 05/03/12 06:13 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Mike Rawdon]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: chip
A quick glance at the 2006 statistics shows experienced climbers having roughly double the number of accidents as inexperienced. We can shoot lots of holes in the reporting methods but this certainly means something.


I have ready access to absolutely no accident statistics... but I can recall 7 fatalities at the Gunks. 6 of them occured to "experienced" climbers. One noob. And even in this latest case, if DJP's overseer organizion (AMC or the equivalent) had approved her partner(s), then all 7 fatalities are associated with "experienced" climbers.

If I add in the other climbers who died elsewhere in NY, the numbers stack even more toward "experienced" climbers dying.

Let's talk about hang gliding accidents instead, OK?



This would be a different than just looking for experienced climbing. It would have to do with maintaining insurance and a membership based on redued risk. Climbers who do not have those intentions would not be allowed to join the group.

That does not mean that you could not do hard climbs and take short or long falls. But there would be preparation leading up to this. Members would also have to be willing to postpone climbing over their physical limits until they had adequate experience. I can imagine this group would not be for everyone, not everyone is interested in acting within set boundaries and putting some kind of standards for safety first.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#64594 - 05/03/12 06:16 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: oenophore]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: oenophore
I think any palliative attempts other than an individual for and by himself are futile at best and a pain in the ass for all at worst.



Do you think you could start a NYC based demolition company with those objectives?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#64596 - 05/03/12 06:54 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: oenophore
I think any palliative attempts other than an individual for and by himself are futile at best and a pain in the ass for all at worst.


Do you think you could start a NYC based demolition company with those objectives?

Ding! Wrong answer. You're comparing a recreational activity to a business, with no commonality between the two (although recreational demolition has a certain appeal).
Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

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