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#64603 - 05/03/12 08:40 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
SethG Offline
addict

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 680
Loc: NYC
Donald, as usual I think your heart is in the right place.

But I think you are misguided.

1. Climbers are suspicious of restrictions, with good reason. I know you have conceived of this as a voluntary process but most climbers will worry that the voluntary will become mandatory and for that reason (among others) will oppose it. No one wants access cut off, by the front door or the back door.

2. Have you noticed how many people at the cliff are speaking French or other languages? Ours is not a climbing community made up only or even primarily of locals. Our crag is international, with people regularly driving in from Canada and flying in from other countries. I don't think your proposal is practical given the diverse, far-flung population that climbs here.

3. You offer a solution that solves no existing problem. Training is available already. Anyone who wants to can enroll in all sorts of training classes for climbing, today more than ever before. One can take group classes, go on guided trips, take self-rescue courses, or hire an individual guide to teach proper leading and anchor-building technique. So your proposed AMC curriculum is redundant, except for the certification part, which most people will take objection to. No one wants to be told by someone else when they are ready to lead a 5.6. This isn't the "leader must not fall" era, no matter how much you might wish it were. And if that era were to return, it would not save us from every accident. Surely some accidents result from the leader going beyond his or her abilities, but by no means all.
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#64609 - 05/03/12 10:29 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: SethG]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: SethG
Donald, as usual I think your heart is in the right place.

But I think you are misguided.

1. Climbers are suspicious of restrictions, with good reason. I know you have conceived of this as a voluntary process but most climbers will worry that the voluntary will become mandatory and for that reason (among others) will oppose it. No one wants access cut off, by the front door or the back door.

2. Have you noticed how many people at the cliff are speaking French or other languages? Ours is not a climbing community made up only or even primarily of locals. Our crag is international, with people regularly driving in from Canada and flying in from other countries. I don't think your proposal is practical given the diverse, far-flung population that climbs here.

3. You offer a solution that solves no existing problem. Training is available already. Anyone who wants to can enroll in all sorts of training classes for climbing, today more than ever before. One can take group classes, go on guided trips, take self-rescue courses, or hire an individual guide to teach proper leading and anchor-building technique. So your proposed AMC curriculum is redundant, except for the certification part, which most people will take objection to. No one wants to be told by someone else when they are ready to lead a 5.6. This isn't the "leader must not fall" era, no matter how much you might wish it were. And if that era were to return, it would not save us from every accident. Surely some accidents result from the leader going beyond his or her abilities, but by no means all.



Seth: "… your proposed AMC curriculum is redundant, …" Redundancy is good thing. At this point it would be a redundant "model". If it worked well, was desirable and growing, then everything else would take care of itself.

Seth: "No one wants to be told by someone else when they are ready to lead a 5.6." Some people do, I did. And if they did not like it then they could not be covered under a group insurance policy. Property owners like to be covered by insurance. Property owners like t to know who is on their property.

Seth: ". This isn't the "leader must not fall" era," If you learn how to take falls and place protection at the same time you are learning the hard way. There is a better way.

Seth: ". Surely some accidents result from the leader going beyond his or her abilities,…" I am not talking about staying within abilities but within ethics. The ethic I am speaking of has to do with knowing what you are doing and what is going to happen with certainty beyond reasonable doubt.

Seth: " No one wants access cut off" We are already cut off from access, and for good reasons. Did you ever wonder why the MMH has cut off access? Think about it, do you know how dumb we look right now?

Seth: "Have you noticed how many people at the cliff are speaking French or other languages?" Then there would be some red tape, especially if you know nothing about climbing. But right now I am only speaking of starting a model for a small group. Right now I am the only one saying this.

This is not a big deal, it's very doable and not that difficult to implicate if enough people are willing to work together. How many accidents have the guide services had? In the end I would assume this plan would be somewhere near the same.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64612 - 05/03/12 11:08 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 418
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...

"This would be a different than just looking for experienced climbing. It would have to do with maintaining insurance and a membership based on redued risk. Climbers who do not have those intentions would not be allowed to join the group."

So then take the steps to set up this club you think is such a good idea. Nobody is stopping you. Don't expect everyone to agree with your idea - it's simply not going to go that way. But there is nothing whatsoever from stopping to in creating this entity. Best of luck with it!

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#64614 - 05/03/12 11:28 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: TerrieM]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: TerrieM

"This would be a different than just looking for experienced climbing. It would have to do with maintaining insurance and a membership based on redued risk. Climbers who do not have those intentions would not be allowed to join the group."

So then take the steps to set up this club you think is such a good idea. Nobody is stopping you. Don't expect everyone to agree with your idea - it's simply not going to go that way. But there is nothing whatsoever from stopping to in creating this entity. Best of luck with it!


thanks ... my insurance company is looking into it now
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64615 - 05/03/12 11:40 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
PAF Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 33
This whole accident is just awful and now the talk of exclusive climbing clubs has made me all the more disgusted. Do your time, earn your merit badge; we don't need to re-live that. So you enforce it here, do you shove it down every climbing area's throat next? Where does it stop?

I do agree that if you see something "off", by all means possible speak up, but not sure how that would have helped in this case not knowing anything about what went wrong. It's all just speculation till we know the facts.

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#64618 - 05/03/12 11:51 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: oenophore
I think any palliative attempts other than an individual for and by himself are futile at best and a pain in the ass for all at worst.


Do you think you could start a NYC based demolition company with those objectives?


Ding! Wrong answer. You're comparing a recreational activity to a business, with no commonality between the two ...


Are you trying to tell me you are a hillbilly? How would you know there is no difference?

Quote:
Do you own a demolition company with Rigging Licensed Insurance in NYC? Are you a licensed rigger? Do have any OSHA training for tower work? Have you read the Code of Federal Regulations Part 1926 from the department of labor? Do you know what the job of a safety engineer is if he is supervising you? Do you know why there are safety meetings? Do you know why there are inspections? Do you know why there is a demolition plan? Do you know what happens to the job if there is an accident or fatality?





From http://theunionnews.wordpress.com/tag/sweatshop-construction/ The rise in construction fatalities can be explained by a deadly mix of untrained immigrant workers, lax attention to safety regulations and profit-minded contractors who cut corners in all areas from labor to materials.


Edited by donald perry (05/03/12 11:58 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64619 - 05/04/12 12:03 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: PAF]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
We know enough that it should be unnecessary and embarrassing. How many more accidents do we need before we are ready to stop making excuses and do something about it?


Edited by donald perry (05/04/12 12:11 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64620 - 05/04/12 12:12 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
I think your climber/rigger/demolition club is a great idea DJP! Go for it!

First step would be to get your own website together with a forum you can administer to solicit input from all the members.

Godspeed DJP!


Edited by fear (05/04/12 12:12 AM)

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#64621 - 05/04/12 12:15 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: fear]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: fear
I think your climber/rigger/demolition club is a great idea DJP! Go for it!

First step would be to get your own website together with a forum you can administer to solicit input from all the members.

Godspeed DJP!


Thanks, you can do that if you want the job. Networksolutions makes it easy.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#64632 - 05/04/12 04:35 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: retroscree]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey


Originally Posted By: alicex4
DP, it is climbing, not kumbaya.


That was-is a parabolic message and wake up call to the Gunks climbing community.

The girl in the video is talking to us. She represents not only one girl but the many climbers who have died here in the Vulgarian age. She was told that she could trust us, but we lied. She was assured by the way the climbing community acts in climbers, people in the climbing stores, people in the gym, that there was nothing to worry about, but we lied. She was doing a climb we call easy. She was told that we are "sorry, but we are not", because this is a "rerun", and the best we can do is look dumb. He is only sorry he got caught in his lie again with a new girl.. She is telling us that it's time for the era of Vulgarianism to go. It is over because she had to go too.

I do not believe we need to go back to the days before the Vulgarians. That is not why I posted that video. The vulgarians were a club. I believe there is a better solution that can be found when we all work together, and when we ask people to join us and provide various amenities, insurance and encourage them to follow modern ethics with limiting risk. Just like with any inner city neighborhood, the Gunks should be the same. This is our turf, and I think we can take better care of it. I think it is possible to implement a reasonable process for this if we put our heads together and are willing to work together in clubs and on the carriage road to make friends with new climbers and ask them to join us.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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