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#64636 - 05/04/12 11:22 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey

We love to create delusions. And people can start in a climbing gym and see that we believe climbing is safe.

Very experienced climbers easily forget how long it took for us to get to the point where we are today, and that the way was long and complex, the things we have had to deal with, and we create a deception.

People die. kevin Bein got into an irreversible situation. Bll Ravitch lost his footing and fell of the top of a cliff. Toney Waldrick felt he could make the same traverse along a parapet wall again and fell off a the Macy's building. The salvage tug Turmoil created an inescapable vacuum and a whirlpool when it sunk and drew in Dominick and wrapped him up in rope so he could not escape. These kinds of things people learned from and come to another place.

Oh, you did not know that new climber died on Roseland? And now the light starts to shine and you get a glimpse of where we really stand. But maybe no. Maybe climbing is only safe for you because you know everything. Think again.

When new climbers get themselves into a long epic on a big wall or they have an accident, then perhaps things can start to come into context. But it takes time and in a way a new climber who has a close call can know more then an old climber who is in denial.

This is some serious shit we're playing with, and unless one knows EXACTLY what they are doing they are playing Russian Roulette. And in some instances even when you do know what you are doing it does not make any difference, you are still playing Russian Roulette .

A false sense of calm and awareness can easily be created, and in this way there is a trap that new climbers can fall into.

You cannot just hand anyone a rope and some gear and tell them they can set up a toprope. This is not the first time something like this has happened. New climbers do all kinds of crazy shit. I have seen it first hand. You should see the things they do when they are on big wails. I have seen a lot of that too. Just because it is clear to us, somewhat, does not mean that it is clear to them. Most of them are cluless and they do very stupid things all day long because often their minds get into a haze. And sometimes it can get very annoying. Go climb a big wall with some newbies or bring some new workers on a tower and you will see what I mean.

That is why you cannot blame this death on these people new to climbing. They needed a mentor, that is the *essential thing* that was missing, not that they did not tie the sling correctly. What they did and how they did it is irrelevant.



Edited by donald perry (05/04/12 11:29 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#64637 - 05/04/12 11:37 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
keith Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 70
Loc: The beach
Maybe you should start a mentoring program at some of the local climbing gyms. As opposed to trying to regulate the mtns.


Edited by keith (05/04/12 11:43 AM)

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#64642 - 05/04/12 01:14 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: keith]
Adrian Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 73
Come on, people, just stop feeding the troll.

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#64643 - 05/04/12 01:28 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: Adrian]
fear Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 221
Loc: New England
He's so hungry though!

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#64780 - 05/09/12 05:35 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: mrhutt
There is nothing but pure speculation everywhere on this terrible accident....[a top-rope] death may in fact be faultless and truly a freak accident.


This is not a specualtion about how accidents do happen. You can be understood to be giving advice and information about rockclimbing, and thats OK. But now people need to know, how can top-rope freak accidents happen by chance in cases like this with professionals when they follow proper procedure. This is now an additional issue of concern. Do you have an answer for them?


Edited by donald perry (05/09/12 06:16 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#65033 - 05/28/12 10:07 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
The person who set up the top-rope does not know how it happened.

It is believed that the bark on the tree held the slings temporarily in place because of knots, until someone fell and additional weight pulled the knotted slings around the tree and off the top of the climb. For whatever reason, the person [or persons] acting as a guide was distracted and the long chain of slings up to and around the tree was not completed to make a choker. It is not uncommon for new climbers who set up a top-rope together to assume that the other person is completing the rigging.

The error that was made was that the person who set up the top-rope was not yet a competent rock climber and misunderstood that he needed a guide and a mentor. There is a misunderstanding, it takes a few years, and not a few minutes like in a gym, to fully understand rock-climbing. New climbers can be oblivious to this for long periods of time.


Edited by donald perry (05/28/12 10:31 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#65047 - 05/29/12 05:44 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
so can "experienced" climbers. Let's not villify every new climber. It's called human error. We are all fallible, and yes, even the mighty RangerRob has been known to make the occasional faux pas. I appreciate what your saying, but let's not forget that the person who built the anchor is assuredly going through their own emotional hell right now. The Free clincis are the positive that came out of this, and it will help climbers avoid critical mistakes more than any online lecture. Keep up the excellent work boys and girls.

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#65091 - 05/31/12 11:53 AM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: RangerRob]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
I do not think the more experienced climbers and new climbers *can* make the *same kind* of mistakes. I don't think it's his fault, he did not realize he needed a guide and a mentor.

In rock-climbing there must be habitual attentiveness where each and every move needs to be carefully analyzed, and sometimes by more then one competent person. Any deviation from this rule leads to accidents.

Here are some videos where nothing is carefully analyzed, and the results:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81581270/
Turn off the volume or prepare to be annoyed for this one.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82544069/?lt=epe
Helicopter inanimateness to the line by a crew. Here I think the crew is inexperienced and the people in the chopper are distracted by all the people and the cameras. If you climb with a group of people you can be distracted.


Edited by donald perry (05/31/12 12:37 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#65093 - 05/31/12 12:48 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: donald perry]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Originally Posted By: donald perry


In rock-climbing there must be habitual attentiveness where each and every move needs to be carefully analyzed, and sometimes by more then one competent person.


Yeah I always build an anchor at the crux, bring up my partner. He takes a look, we figure out a sequence. I lower him down, and we carry on. If it doesn't work, we repeat this.

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#65094 - 05/31/12 12:57 PM Re: Accident on Black Fly today [Re: ianmanger]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
opps I made a mistake, I meant inattentiveness not inanimateness.


Edited by donald perry (05/31/12 12:58 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
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