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#65036 - 05/28/12 11:03 PM Re: Free Clinics; Learn what you don't know. [Re: Coppertone]
whatthegunks Offline
member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 136
Loc: High Falls, NY
Word is that this past Saturday's clinic went great. Matt Shove from Ragged Mt. Guides ran it and covered anchor building skills for top roping. Approximately sixteen people attended and I ran into an appreciative climber in the Trapps today who said it was great. Thanks Matt.

Next Saturday, June 2nd, I will cover the abbreviated territory from the 16th; rappelling. I'll go over rope management, saddle bags, tethers, backup with fireman's and friction hitches.

I'll also cover using friction hitches to ascend the rope.

Cheers, Joe.

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#65039 - 05/29/12 02:49 PM Re: Free Clinics; Learn what you don't know. [Re: cbmd]
Chas Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 1754
Loc: Flagstaff
Originally Posted By: cbmd
Originally Posted By: Jannette
I have an idea. Perhaps people can take pictures of their anchors or of suspect anchors they see at the Gunks, post them on gunks.com and let the community critique them and learn.

Jannette


I'll point out that a couple years ago, inexperienced friends of mine were toproping off a dangerous and unacceptable anchor without any experienced folk in support.

Some Gunks.commers were more than happy to take pics of the anchor and post it up here to criticize and make fun. However, these patrons of civic duty neglected to point out how bad the situation was to the actual climbers. Instead, they chose to talk shit in this forum rather than intervene in a potentially dangerous situation.

I think the free clinics idea is awesome and I have tons of respect for those participating, organizing and donating their expertise. But the last thing we need is "helpful" forum monkeys sneaking around PK and the UF signing up unwitting contestants for "So You Think You Can Build Anchors?" Let's remember that the smell of bullshit too often permeates these threads.


When I was living on the East Coast ( I say that since most of the crags I climb at have ratings starting at 5.10 or 5.11 trad nowadays so most of the people there are fairly experienced) I saw some poor anchors and I would try to give some helpful critiques. Often one of two things happened. Occasionally, people would take the critique in a constructive manner. More often then not, people would become hositle, especially if it was a guy climbing with his girlfriend who was even newer to climbing then they were.

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#65041 - 05/29/12 03:49 PM Re: Free Clinics; Learn what you don't know. [Re: Chas]
Welle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 213
Loc: Western Slope
Originally Posted By: Chas


When I was living on the East Coast ( I say that since most of the crags I climb at have ratings starting at 5.10 or 5.11 trad nowadays so most of the people there are fairly experienced) I saw some poor anchors and I would try to give some helpful critiques. Often one of two things happened. Occasionally, people would take the critique in a constructive manner. More often then not, people would become hositle, especially if it was a guy climbing with his girlfriend who was even newer to climbing then they were.



Chas, don't forget that most of the "experienced" 5.10 or 5.11 trad climbers out West are used to hanging two draws on bolts for anchors. I said hell no to partner up say for the Black Canyon with somebody who learned plugging gear at Indian Creek...

Speaking of bolts, I know I'm opening the can of worms, but maybe in the light of the recent accident the Preserve would reconsider the bolt policy and install bolt anchors say on popular single pitch climbs at Uberfall? I love the idea of gear anchors and am grateful for having learned building gear anchors at the Gunks, but two bolts are fool-proof plus it saves trees and prevents erosion...

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#65042 - 05/29/12 04:40 PM Re: Free Clinics; Learn what you don't know. [Re: cbmd]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: cbmd
I'll point out that a couple years ago, inexperienced friends of mine were toproping off a dangerous and unacceptable anchor without any experienced folk in support.

Some Gunks.commers were more than happy to take pics of the anchor and post it up here to criticize and make fun. However, these patrons of civic duty neglected to point out how bad the situation was to the actual climbers. Instead, they chose to talk shit in this forum rather than intervene in a potentially dangerous situation.


Well, it's not as simple as that.

I remember that thread, and I remember there was some social friction coming from the party TRing off the bad anchor. The links were to a "sheclimbs" page, indicating that it was probably an organized group where Someone was In Charge (and thus not receptive to instruction). Your friends later wrote that they even owned Freedom of the Hills (and still made a bad anchor). Seems they were working pretty hard to ignore instruction, while still willing to endanger other people. You should be madder at your friends than anyone in that thread.

Just the other night in the gym, I got in a woman's face after she very clearly took her brake hand off while her partner was climbing. Repetitively. She was doing palm-down, but only holding the brake next to the live strand with her left pinky while she moved her brake hand. When I approached, and said "you just can't do that" she sputtered all kinds of stuff, clearly not receptive to oversight or instruction or even recognizing that something might be wrong. It was just another of the age-old "when do you say something?" "what do you say"? threads and conundrums that have gone on since belaying, I'd imagine.

The sad fact is that climbing is an art largely taught by ... people, who sometimes have trouble interacting with other people in various situations. People are complex.

But it is simple as: better an anonymous post, better a 'snarky' picture, better a free clinic, better anything, than anyone going 'plunk'. Take what you can get, get it any way you can.

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#65043 - 05/29/12 05:05 PM Re: Free Clinics; Learn what you don't know. [Re: Julie]
KathyS Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 196
Loc: NY, USA
Sometimes, it's not the message, but the delivery that offends. I could tell a friend, "yes, that dress makes you look fat," or "that dress just doesn't do your figure justice." Either way, I've told my friend the dress is not for her, but the first way is virtually guaranteed to offend, and the second may not. If you "get in someone's face" and say "you just can't do that," you'll automatically put someone of the defense, and they won't hear you, no matter how right you are. Perhaps walk over and say something more like, "I couldn't help but notice you only have the brake strand held by your pinky when you switch hands. If your partner fell at that time, you couldn't possibly catch her. A better way would be blah, blah, blah etc."

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#65044 - 05/29/12 05:10 PM Re: Free Clinics; Learn what you don't know. [Re: KathyS]
Dana Online   content
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
If I notice unsafe belaying at a gym, I tell a staff member.

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#65045 - 05/29/12 05:19 PM Re: Free Clinics; Learn what you don't know. [Re: KathyS]
ShakesALot Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 258
Loc: NJ

Just because advice/criticism isn't well received doesn't mean it's of no value. What everyone's describing is simply a very common gut reaction from most people, sadly.

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#65046 - 05/29/12 05:38 PM Re: Free Clinics; Learn what you don't know. [Re: ShakesALot]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
Kathy, that dress does NOT make my ass look fat! Some friend you are!

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#65050 - 05/29/12 05:56 PM Re: Free Clinics; Learn what you don't know. [Re: RangerRob]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
I'm entirely sure that there just is no solution to that situation in general. I'm guessing we've all had it dozens of times. But we all recognize it, and that it's so pervasive, and especially (paradoxically) amongst the less experienced.

My point is, I guess: maybe one skill that Joe et al. could teach at these clinics is the idea that you're never done learning. Everyone, but new climbers especially, should train themselves to be receptive to ANYONE with anything to say. Recognize that your first instinct, your gut reaction, is to be defensive -- then set that aside and listen.

I think more-experienced climbers end up doing this naturally, but newbies go through a period of rigidity (defensiveness, posturing, whatever) that can be dangerous.

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#65051 - 05/29/12 07:05 PM Re: Free Clinics; Learn what you don't know. [Re: Julie]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
if it's really an imminent case of somebody dying from a mistake, who among us wouldn't yell, loudly! and so I did, once, and out of gut reaction saved a life: he listened, was grateful, fixed his mistake, and lived. how would I live with myself if I had not? listen to your instincts. he could have yelled at me and made me look like an a-h*le, but then I'm used to that.

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