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#65131 - 06/01/12 12:35 PM Prescribed Burns
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Anyone catch the heat the Mohonk Preserve is getting in the local papers for their burning? Very interesting 2 page PR spread in this weeks NP times...... This PR stunt is just going to add fuel to the fire that will surely jump the widest of fire breaks.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65135 - 06/01/12 03:48 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Do you have a link?

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#65137 - 06/01/12 06:02 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: retroscree]
Rickster Offline
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Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Do you have a link?


Here's the most recent article in the Times Herald Record's web archive, May, 2011. There was a more recent one in March, 2012, but could not find the article. Both have a very positive take on the use of prescribed burns along the ridge.

www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110510/NEWS/105100330&cid=sitesearch

And, the fire burn plan posted at the Shawangunk Ridge Biodiversity Partnership's web site. http://www.gunksfireplan.org/burninfo.html

And, a youtube video of the March 2012 burn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxpZUZ-YMzI


Edited by Rickster (06/01/12 06:07 PM)

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#65138 - 06/01/12 06:09 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Rickster]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
The article in the New Paltz times is basically a rebuttal of all the negative publicity that the Mohonk Preserve has been getting for burning the ridge and putting neighbors at risk. It is interesting how they continue to say that fire is natural in the Northeast......complete propaganda!
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65139 - 06/01/12 06:20 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
The article in the New Paltz times is basically a rebuttal of all the negative publicity that the Mohonk Preserve has been getting for burning the ridge and putting neighbors at risk. It is interesting how they continue to say that fire is natural in the Northeast......complete propaganda!

Actually, it isn't propaganda.
Fire Management in the Northeast

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#65140 - 06/01/12 07:01 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Sure RetroMarcC, and Philip Morris says smoking does not cause cancer according to their research........ Nice source. When was the last natural fire in the gunks?
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65141 - 06/01/12 07:47 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Sure RetroMarcC, and Philip Morris says smoking does not cause cancer according to their research........ Nice source. When was the last natural fire in the gunks?

Since you're not going to believe any source that contradicts your beliefs, do your own research.

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#65142 - 06/01/12 08:54 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Sure RetroMarcC, and Philip Morris says smoking does not cause cancer according to their research........ Nice source. When was the last natural fire in the gunks?

Since you're not going to believe any source that contradicts your beliefs, do your own research.


Wrong again RetroMarcC. We think it's best to look at independent research that does not benefit from the outcome. The source that you provided is clearly biased.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65143 - 06/01/12 10:51 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Rickster Offline
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Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
... When was the last natural fire in the gunks?


Your are kidding right?

You have certainly lived along the ridge long enough to remember the Overlook Fire along Rt. 44/55 west of Minnewaska? April 17 to 21, 2008?

www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/galle...n=desktop#img-6

This wildfire burned for 4 days and had many land managers and home owners very concerned.

Then we remember what happened to Wildmere and Cliff House at the old Minnewaska Hotel Resort? Though arson isn't "natural", that fire could have been even more devastating to the ridge environs if not for the strong response of multiple companies of fire fighters, the hotel's road network allowing for the access of fire trucks, and forming fire breaks, and the close proximity of a ready source of water.

On two occasions during my early climbing years at the Gunks, ranger Thom Schuer stopped at the Uberfall and recruited us to assist in the fighting of brush fires along Overcliff Rd.

I can't imagine that over the years, there have not been more wildfires.

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#65144 - 06/01/12 11:30 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
oenophore Offline
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Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5969
Loc: 212 land
Perhaps these prescribed burn posts may prevent virulent flames on some other threads.
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#65145 - 06/02/12 02:04 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
The article in the New Paltz times is basically a rebuttal of all the negative publicity that the Mohonk Preserve has been getting for burning the ridge and putting neighbors at risk. It is interesting how they continue to say that fire is natural in the Northeast......complete propaganda!


Natural fires occur occasionally anywhere there is fuel, oxygen and lighting. Pretty sure that includes the northeast.

Fire risk to homes? It exists, always. Many home owners around here ask the fire company to burn their property to minimize that risk.

Spin it any way you like. Not all of us are fools.

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#65146 - 06/02/12 02:25 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Rickster]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
... When was the last natural fire in the gunks?


Your are kidding right?

You have certainly lived along the ridge long enough to remember the Overlook Fire along Rt. 44/55 west of Minnewaska? April 17 to 21, 2008?

www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/galle...n=desktop#img-6

This wildfire burned for 4 days and had many land managers and home owners very concerned.

Then we remember what happened to Wildmere and Cliff House at the old Minnewaska Hotel Resort? Though arson isn't "natural", that fire could have been even more devastating to the ridge environs if not for the strong response of multiple companies of fire fighters, the hotel's road network allowing for the access of fire trucks, and forming fire breaks, and the close proximity of a ready source of water.

On two occasions during my early climbing years at the Gunks, ranger Thom Schuer stopped at the Uberfall and recruited us to assist in the fighting of brush fires along Overcliff Rd.

I can't imagine that over the years, there have not been more wildfires.



The overlook fire was not natural either........
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65149 - 06/02/12 10:55 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Rickster Offline
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Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
... When was the last natural fire in the gunks?


Your are kidding right?

You have certainly lived along the ridge long enough to remember the Overlook Fire along Rt. 44/55 west of Minnewaska? April 17 to 21, 2008?

www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/galle...n=desktop#img-6

This wildfire burned for 4 days and had many land managers and home owners very concerned.

Then we remember what happened to Wildmere and Cliff House at the old Minnewaska Hotel Resort? Though arson isn't "natural", that fire could have been even more devastating to the ridge environs if not for the strong response of multiple companies of fire fighters, the hotel's road network allowing for the access of fire trucks, and forming fire breaks, and the close proximity of a ready source of water.

On two occasions during my early climbing years at the Gunks, ranger Thom Schuer stopped at the Uberfall and recruited us to assist in the fighting of brush fires along Overcliff Rd.

I can't imagine that over the years, there have not been more wildfires.



The overlook fire was not natural either........


Yep, that is true. Nothing natural about discarded cigarette butts, or a campfire gone wrong, sparks from a home chimney, or arson. Unless one considers poor and careless human behaviour to be in some way.... natural.

Whatever the source of the fire, the risk and after effects of a resultant wildfire are just as severe. And, some proven prevention protocols include education, enforcement, prescribed burns, and construction of fire breaks.

Why would we not use all the protocols available to us to prepare for and fight, any wild fire no matter the source?

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#65151 - 06/02/12 11:11 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Rickster]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
So first you say the overlook fire was natural, now you say it's not. So again I ask when was the last natual fire in the gunks? If it's such a natural part of the ecosystem and our forests depend on it as touted by the Mohonk preserve you should be able to show us the historical fires that keep our ecosystem in balance.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65152 - 06/02/12 12:20 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Rickster Offline
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Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
I didn't define the Overlook Fire as natural or not, I labeled it a wild fire. Maybe that's the wrong term, but when it rages to a point by where fire fighters were barely able to put it down, it's a danger to forest and friend.

Natural or not, wild fires are common enough to be of concern. As I posted above, I personally participated in two small fire fights above the Overcliff Rd in the late seventies. Both of these were presumed natural as they were well away from any trails.

Your local fire companies would have records of fire calls. If you are truely interested in more specific historical records to answer your querie, that's where you should seek more exacting data.

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#65154 - 06/02/12 01:04 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Rickster]
Mark Heyman Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
So again I ask when was the last natual fire in the gunks? If it's such a natural part of the ecosystem and our forests depend on it as touted by the Mohonk preserve you should be able to show us the historical fires that keep our ecosystem in balance.


Originally Posted By: Rickster
Your local fire companies would have records of fire calls. If you are truely interested in more specific historical records to answer your querie, that's where you should seek more exacting data.



Advocacy group: Many of us are we are interested in the area, but it's your fight, not ours. So, while we are willing to disagree with your propaganda, we aren't willing to put a lot of work into it.

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#65155 - 06/02/12 01:27 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Rickster]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Rickster
I didn't define the Overlook Fire as natural or not, I labeled it a wild fire. Maybe that's the wrong term, but when it rages to a point by where fire fighters were barely able to put it down, it's a danger to forest and friend.

Natural or not, wild fires are common enough to be of concern. As I posted above, I personally participated in two small fire fights above the Overcliff Rd in the late seventies. Both of these were presumed natural as they were well away from any trails.

Your local fire companies would have records of fire calls. If you are truely interested in more specific historical records to answer your querie, that's where you should seek more exacting data.



You actually did say the overlook fire was natural..... I asked when was the last NATURAL fire at the gunks and you said "Your are kidding right?
You have certainly lived along the ridge long enough to remember the Overlook Fire along Rt. 44/55 west of Minnewaska? April 17 to 21, 2008? "

So the propaganda from the Mohonk Preserve continues about fire being NATURAL in the gunks......
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65156 - 06/02/12 01:33 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
crimpy Offline
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Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
please explain how people and their actions are not natural?

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#65158 - 06/02/12 04:04 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: crimpy]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: crimpy
please explain how people and their actions are not natural?


The mohonk Preserve has tried to use the overlook fire to promote their burning program. All of their literature says that fire is a natural part of the northeast forest ecosystem which is simply not true. More pseudo science coming from the Daniel Smiley research center to promote their agenda. If they want to get rid of invasive species they should use their volunteer base to manually pull the weeds like other parks instead of endangering the neighbors and local businesses that surround the Mohonk Preserve.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65162 - 06/02/12 04:29 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Mark Heyman]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Advocacy group: Many of us are we are interested in the area, but it's your fight, not ours. So, while we are willing to disagree with your propaganda, we aren't willing to put a lot of work into it.

Careful. Now the crazy man of Canaan Road will just accuse you of having multiple personality disorder or using the regal "we" and your statements will be ignored.

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#65163 - 06/02/12 04:35 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Advocacy group: Many of us are we are interested in the area, but it's your fight, not ours. So, while we are willing to disagree with your propaganda, we aren't willing to put a lot of work into it.

Careful. Now the crazy man of Canaan Road will just accuse you of having multiple personality disorder or using the regal "we" and your statements will be ignored.



Still angry eh RetroMarcC? ROFL. So as you sit there about to blow a fuse please remind everyone what your stake in all of this is as you type from Sandy Utah?
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65164 - 06/02/12 04:36 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group

All of their literature says that fire is a natural part of the northeast forest ecosystem which is simply not true.
Thanks, MPNA


Do you have any citations or even web links to support this claim? You have repeatedly asked when the last "natural fire" occurred in the Gunks. Have you actually tried to search for an answer? A dated citation from a recognized source might further prove your case, but you have not yet cited same. Not offering any other further support only weakens your argument that their claim is not true.

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#65165 - 06/02/12 04:41 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Rickster]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group

All of their literature says that fire is a natural part of the northeast forest ecosystem which is simply not true.
Thanks, MPNA


Do you have any citations or even web links to support this claim? You have repeatedly asked when the last "natural fire" occurred in the Gunks. Have you actually tried to search for an answer? A dated citation from a recognized source might further prove your case, but you have not yet cited same. Not offering any other further support only weakens your argument that their claim is not true.







Try reading your own links jackass......
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65166 - 06/02/12 05:00 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Try reading your own links jackass......

Cute. And he thinks I'm the one "about to blow a fuse", still confusing me with someone else.

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#65167 - 06/02/12 05:56 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group


Try reading your own links jackass......


Well, no need to begin name calling now is there MPNA?

I've posted 4 informative links during this "discussion".

In response to retroscree's request for relevant links, I posted three that may have been of interest. An article in The Times Herald Record newspaper, The Gunks Fire Plan and a youtube video of a recent controlled burn at the Mohonk Preserve. The 4th link was another THR article about the Overlook Fire.

None of which supports your argument.

The onus is still upon you to offer some form of support for your argument.

The name calling just reflects poorly on your own character.

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#65170 - 06/02/12 07:04 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Rickster]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
We should note that the mention of "natural" fires is irrelevant. The risk that home owners are exposed to is uncontrolled forest fire. It makes no difference whether a fire that burns their home was started naturally or unnaturally. It might well be that more fires are started by careless humans, but it simply doesn't make a difference in their overall risk.

Reducing the fuel load in a forest by prescribed burns in a forest can significantly reduces the overall risk, not increase it. Some home insurance companies offer discounts for meeting standard fire prevention guidelines which can include prescribed burns to this effect.

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#65179 - 06/02/12 11:58 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
cfrac Offline
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Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group

Try reading your own links jackass......


The person who posts under the title Advocacy Group seems to have made the rights of private land owners the number one issue in their life and in doing so looks down upon all concepts of shared resources. When the Mohonk Preserve, an organization that shares its land, makes any decisions as to the use of its land the Advocacy Group person is upset, even if that action is one that would benefit that person's private land.

What is funny is that this Advocacy Group person continues to make their "private land" arguments to the visitors of Gunks.com, which in turn is a group of people that tend to be supportive of organizations that allow recreational pursuits to be enjoyed on their land. Then when someone contradicts them they react with antagonism as if they were expecting the audience, the group that overwhelmingly supports land preserves, to agree with them.

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#65180 - 06/03/12 01:31 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: cfrac]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Cfrac, the mohonk preserve is not the same as the landowners that own Lantern hill or Farley ledge and other private lands that are free and currently open to the public. We fully support Private landowners who allow access to their private property. We don't support many of the tactics that the Mohonk Preserve uses to acquire land. We are currently working on a tri state land access database that we think will be good for all landowners. It involves a partnership of land that is currently closed with land that is currently open and will be similar to Stopken.org except on a larger scale. The basic idea is that if you trespass on closed land you are then banned from all participating open lands as well. No one likes trespassers, even the Mohonk Preserve. As far as not liking anything about the Mohonk Preserve, nothing could be further from the truth. We look forward to the day when they can coexist in peace with all of their neighbors.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65181 - 06/03/12 01:43 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
cfrac Offline
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Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Cfrac, the mohonk preserve is not the same as the landowners that own Lantern hill or Farley ledge and other private lands that are free and currently open to the public. We fully support Private landowners who allow access to their private property. We don't support many of the tactics that the Mohonk Preserve uses to acquire land. We are currently working on a tri state land access database that we think will be good for all landowners. It involves a partnership of land that is currently closed with land that is currently open and will be similar to Stopken.org except on a larger scale. The basic idea is that if you trespass on closed land you are then banned from all participating open lands as well. No one likes trespassers, even the Mohonk Preserve. As far as not liking anything about the Mohonk Preserve, nothing could be further from the truth. We look forward to the day when they can coexist in peace with all of their neighbors.

Thanks, MPNA


Sounds like someone else is typing. Is that true?

"As far as not liking anything about the Mohonk Preserve, nothing could be further from the truth."

So your group is opposed to prescribed burns because they threaten adjacent land with fire?

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#65183 - 06/03/12 01:46 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: cfrac]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: cfrac

The person who posts under the title Advocacy Group seems to have made the rights of private land owners the number one issue in their life and in doing so looks down upon all concepts of shared resources. When the Mohonk Preserve, an organization that shares its land, makes any decisions as to the use of its land the Advocacy Group person is upset, even if that action is one that would benefit that person's private land.

What is funny is that this Advocacy Group person continues to make their "private land" arguments to the visitors of Gunks.com, which in turn is a group of people that tend to be supportive of organizations that allow recreational pursuits to be enjoyed on their land. Then when someone contradicts them they react with antagonism as if they were expecting the audience, the group that overwhelmingly supports land preserves, to agree with them.

Well written cfrac.

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
… We don't support many of the tactics that the Mohonk Preserve uses to acquire land. …


And if true, many of us, certainly me, wouldn't either!!!

But what you write is so sensationalized, one sided, and often incorrect, that I don't think many here take you seriously at all! The prescribed burn issue is a great example. Prescribed burns are generally accepted in the US, and are commonly used to reduce the risk of wild fires, yet you write as though they are increasing the risk to the Mohonks neighbors. When we see you insist on incorrect and sensationalized information, propaganda, we can't believe anything you write.


You might be publicizing an significant issue, but you are hurting your cause the way you have gone about it here

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#65184 - 06/03/12 03:21 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Hey MarkHeyman, while we may have alienated some, our feeling is that there will always be people who are unreasonable, have an agenda, simply do not care, selfish, etc. Again, we are not trying to get you on our side, we are focused on the neighbors, locals and elected officials. If a few outside people get involved or engage us in some constructive dialog that helps us focus and hone our message so be it. But we can and enjoy sparring with the idiots as well. Again you get the dialog you deserve. If you treat us with respect we will reciprocate. If you turn it into a flame fest we can hang in that medium as well.
So back on topic. Fire is not part of the Northeast for the following reasons
1.lightning strikes account for less than 3% of all fires.
2. Lightning usually occurs during rain when the forest cannot burn
3. Most lightning in the northeast is not cloud to ground lightning it's cloud to cloud.
4. Take a look at our mountains and show me one area that has burned due to lightning in the past 100 years. If our forests depended on fire it would happen much more frequently.

3 people died and 29 houses were destroyed in Colorado this past march due to a prescribed burn that started out as a 50 ac burn. The same size as the duck pond burn.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65185 - 06/03/12 03:25 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
DENVER — The Colorado State Forest Service conducted a 50-acre prescribed burn on March 22, part of a normal plan to consume fuel in the rugged, pine-filled foothills southwest of Denver. It wasn't far from site of the monstrous Hayman Fire 10 years ago, and this burn was a precaution.
Once the fire was out, crews patrolled the perimeter daily to make sure it stayed that way. And it was on one such patrol the hot afternoon of Monday, March 26, that they spotted an ember blown across the perimeter and lighting grass. What they hadn't done in all their methodical planning was ask for real-time weather forecasts that would have predicted vicious, swirling winds.
From there, a deadly cascade of missteps combined with the vagaries of wind and fire to produce another tragedy in the Rocky Mountains, new documents obtained this week show. The 6-square-mile blaze killed three people, destroyed dozens of homes near the small town of Conifer and raised questions about what could have been done to contain the human and material losses – questions that will be addressed by an out-of-state investigator.
"This is heartbreaking, and we are sorry," deputy state forester Joe Duda said.
"People up here want accountability," said resident Glenn Davis. "Telling me 'I'm sorry' doesn't really make a difference."
Volunteer firemen responding to the first reports of smoke couldn't talk to the state crew because it used a different radio frequency. One fire chief had to drive along the winding roads in the pine-dotted region to find out what was going on at the controlled burn site, losing precious minutes to act.
Dispatchers, too, were in the dark, reassuring some frightened residents as the smoke and winds gathered that events were under control. When authorities realized more than three hours later that, in fact, nothing was under control, they sent out waves of emergency evacuation telephone calls – some of which reached no one, while others went to out-of-state numbers.
Some early callers died in the inferno. Harried dispatchers hung up on other callers, too overwhelmed to respond.
It was 1:40 p.m. when the wind-blown ember ignited grass. Gusts would soon exceed 60 mph. The first evacuation orders wouldn't go out until 5:05 p.m.
Forest Service records show the controlled burn crew didn't ask for an updated special weather forecast – called a spot forecast – from the day of the burn until an hour after the burn reignited. Over that weekend the weather service had issued a red flag warning for dire fire conditions for the Conifer area, some 8,200 feet high in the Rockies.
"In the fire world we always have what we refer to as situational awareness, and as a burn boss who is leading crews, it is imperative that the burn boss is aware of the conditions, not only now, but what is going to be occurring in the future," said Chris Dicus, a professor of wildland fire fuels management at California Polytechnic State University in San Luis Obispo, Calif.
"Are you looking for a small happy fire, or a large angry fire?" Dicus said. "The weather forecast you need will change based on what your objectives are."
Bill McLaughlin, chief of the Elk Creek Volunteer Fire Department, couldn't talk to the forest service that Monday because it was on a different radio frequency.
"We didn't know in advance which (radio) channel they were on," McLaughlin said of the state forest service crew.
He wasted precious minutes driving to the controlled burn to find out what happened. The map he was using was 18 years old – new maps are too expensive – and it didn't show newer homes that likely were in the line of fire.
"We were making some educated guesses on where exactly the structures were," he said.
Within 10 minutes, residents began calling the Jefferson County 911 system, worried about the smoke. Some were found dead in the aftermath.
One who called 911 was Ann Appel.
"It's blowing smoke right over my house," she said.
"Yeah, it's about 5 acres and growing, so they've got crews on the way," a dispatcher told her.
"OK. Thank you," Appel replied before hanging up.
Human remains believed to be Appel's were found days later.
"It's important to note that her call came in very early. That's why the response is what it is," sheriff's spokeswoman Jacki Kelley said.
The Appel family said sheriff's officials told them Appel didn't receive an evacuation call because her property was listed at the wrong address in Morrison, where the family had never lived.
Some residents report never knowing about the controlled burn, despite policies mandating the public be informed well in advance of such burns.
"We've got 79 mph winds out here, and they've got a controlled burn?" asked an incredulous Sam Lucas in one 911 call.
The bodies of Lucas, 77, and his wife, Linda, 76, were later found at their destroyed home.
Firefighters asked for evacuations shortly before 5 p.m. The first wave of automated calls ordering residents to evacuate was sent at 5:05 p.m. but went to a wrong list of phone numbers, said sheriff's spokesman Mark Techmeyer. "That was a user error on our end."
A new round of calls began at 5:23 p.m. But the first bad round of notifications exacerbated confusion in the dispatch center, which was overwhelmed with calls from people asking about evacuation notices and others reporting smoke and fire.
That exasperation came out in several frantic exchanges on 911.
"You can turn on your news if you want coverage of it," a dispatcher told one resident who called to find out if he was being evacuated.
One woman called to report smoke and haze.
"It wasn't a prescribed burn, was it?" she said.
"It was, but it's now not prescribed any further," the dispatcher said.
"If it's prescribed, it's way out of control," the caller said.
"Well I'm telling you that it was prescribed and it's no longer in control," the dispatcher said.
The confusion led to frantic escapes where in some areas day turned to night, embers flying like tracer bullets. Many roads in the area are winding, down to one lane, creating the potential for jams to safety and emphasizing the need to get out early in case of disaster. A sheriff's deputy trying to knock on doors got lost in the smoke, drove into a ditch, and called for help as flames overtook his car. He escaped unharmed.
"If they're saying there's a controlled burn and the state forest service is on the scene, we don't just create evacuations for a fire that has gone outside the perimeter," Kelley said later, emphasizing the downside of creating undue panic and the county's dependence, too, on reports from the scene.
Ultimately, residents of some 900 homes were evacuated amid rapidly changing weather conditions typical of Colorado's foothills and mountains, where wind speeds and temperatures can change drastically within a matter of minutes – and in this case pushed a fire quickly through narrow canyons and fuel-choked grassland now populated, despite its alpine setting, as an exurb of Denver some 25 miles away.
Andy Hoover may be typical of them.
That Monday, he told a 911 dispatcher he was watching his house burn.
"I think I'm safe," he said.
"Can you get out of the area, because we don't know if we have a second wave (of fire) coming in there," the dispatcher said.
"You know what, ma'am, I could try," Hoover said. "I'm not sure that's a smart idea."
___
Associated Press writers Dan Elliott, Rema Rahman and P. Solomon Banda contributed to this report.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65186 - 06/03/12 03:36 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
One of the worst cases of a prescribed burn getting out of control was in New Mexico in 2000. A prescribed burn set by the National Park Service in Bandelier National Monument, west of Los Alamos, blew out of control, and all of Los Alamos was evacuated. More than 400 families lost their homes and more than 115 Los Alamos National Laboratory buildings were destroyed or damaged. The federal government paid $455 million in compensation.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65188 - 06/03/12 05:34 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Hey MarkHeyman, while we may have alienated some, our feeling is that there will always be people who are unreasonable, have an agenda, simply do not care, selfish, etc. Again, we are not trying to get you on our side, we are focused on the neighbors, locals and elected officials. If a few outside people get involved or engage us in some constructive dialog that helps us focus and hone our message so be it. But we can and enjoy sparring with the idiots as well. Again you get the dialog you deserve. If you treat us with respect we will reciprocate. If you turn it into a flame fest we can hang in that medium as well.
So back on topic. Fire is not part of the Northeast for the following reasons
1.lightning strikes account for less than 3% of all fires.
2. Lightning usually occurs during rain when the forest cannot burn
3. Most lightning in the northeast is not cloud to ground lightning it's cloud to cloud.
4. Take a look at our mountains and show me one area that has burned due to lightning in the past 100 years. If our forests depended on fire it would happen much more frequently.

3 people died and 29 houses were destroyed in Colorado this past march due to a prescribed burn that started out as a 50 ac burn. The same size as the duck pond burn.


Take a look at the map in this paper.

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#65189 - 06/03/12 05:49 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
You've posted two articles about prescribed burns that got out of control due to incompetence and mistakes, yet you ignore the literally thousands of prescribed burns done safely that occur annually. What's the point of posting those? Once again, you're condemning the Preserve by silent implication.

Yes, there's an obvious risk in intentionally setting a fire, but you're ignoring the far greater risk a policy of full suppression creates by allowing fuel to build up. I'd bet that if a wildfire started on Mohonk lands that took out your or your neighbors houses, you'd be the first one screaming at the Preserve for not having done prescribed burns to reduce the fuel on the forest floor.

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#65190 - 06/03/12 06:35 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Since the 1870's the average fire in all of NYS has been less than 50 ac. Most years show much less than 15000 total acres burned in the entire state. Fire would have to happen much more regularly to be a factor in the northeast ecosystem.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65191 - 06/03/12 09:42 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Since the 1870's the average fire in all of NYS has been less than 50 ac. Most years show much less than 15000 total acres burned in the entire state. Fire would have to happen much more regularly to be a factor in the northeast ecosystem.


If looking at the total acres in NYS as you posted, shouldn't you add in the total burned acres for the entire NE before you could routinely say that "....... more regularly to be a factor in the northeast ecosystem? Rather it should read.... more regularly to be a factor in the NYS ecosystem.

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#65192 - 06/03/12 09:43 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Since the 1870's the average fire in all of NYS has been less than 50 ac. Most years show much less than 15000 total acres burned in the entire state. Fire would have to happen much more regularly to be a factor in the northeast ecosystem.

If anyone wants to see the actual numbers instead of agenda-driven propaganda averages, take a look at:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/42438.html

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#65193 - 06/03/12 09:56 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: retroscree]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
\

[Right click and "View image" for full size on Windows machines.]

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#65194 - 06/03/12 10:02 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Rickster]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
The US Fire Administration last posted reports for FEMA were 2009. They list a total of 78,792 fires in the US with a total of 5,921,786 acres burned. 2006 was an even bigger year with 96,385 fires totaling 9,873,745 acres burned. We're not talking house fires, car fires, etc. These are wildfires, brush fires, forest fires etc.

Compared to NYS average of burned acres to total numbers of fires, the national average for 2009 is 75.15 acres burned. The average in 2006 was 102.44 burned acres per fire.. A 50 acre wild fire may seem small, till the acres turn out to be yours or a place you value. Though NYS may indeed average only 50 acres per event, the Overlook Fire burned 2800 acres of the Shawangunk ridge.

The US Fire Admin periodically releases Topical Papers on various fire related topics. The one pertaining to wildfires was for years leading up to 1998. A bit dated, but the figures could prove relevant to this discussion. Natural fires made up less than 5% of all fires, compared to "incendiary or suspicious" fires which made up just shy of 40% of the reported fires for the period.

www.usfa.fema.gov/statistics/estimates/wildfire.shtm

www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v2i19-508.pdf

http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/42378.html

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#65197 - 06/03/12 10:19 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Rickster]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Since the 1870's the average fire in all of NYS has been less than 50 ac. Most years show much less than 15000 total acres burned in the entire state. Fire would have to happen much more regularly to be a factor in the northeast ecosystem.


If looking at the total acres in NYS as you posted, shouldn't you add in the total burned acres for the entire NE before you could routinely say that "....... more regularly to be a factor in the northeast ecosystem? Rather it should read.... more regularly to be a factor in the NYS ecosystem.


fair enough. The fact still remains that the overlook fire was a man made fire, not natural. This is the problem with the Mohonk Preserves position of prescribed burning. They say that fire is a natural part of the shawangunk ecosystem and then use the overlook fire to show that if they do not burn a "natural" fire like the overlook fire will happen. Scare tactics to initiate a dangerous burning program.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65198 - 06/03/12 10:21 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
It still shows by the way that naural fire could not possibly be an important part of the forrest ecosystem in NYS.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65199 - 06/03/12 10:26 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Since the 1870's the average fire in all of NYS has been less than 50 ac. Most years show much less than 15000 total acres burned in the entire state. Fire would have to happen much more regularly to be a factor in the northeast ecosystem.

If anyone wants to see the actual numbers instead of agenda-driven propaganda averages, take a look at:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/42438.html



If anyone wants to see RetroMarcC blow another fuse keep following this thread.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

Top
#65203 - 06/03/12 11:59 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group

Try reading your own links jackass......


If anyone wants to see Advocacy Group blow another fuse keep following this thread.

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#65211 - 06/04/12 02:08 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
How a fire starts is irrelavant. It poses the same danger regardless.

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Hey MarkHeyman, while we may have alienated some, our feeling is that there will always be people who are unreasonable, have an agenda, simply do not care, selfish, etc. Again, we are not trying to get you on our side, we are focused on the neighbors, locals and elected officials. If a few outside people get involved or engage us in some constructive dialog that helps us focus and hone our message so be it. But we can and enjoy sparring with the idiots as well. Again you get the dialog you deserve. If you treat us with respect we will reciprocate. If you turn it into a flame fest we can hang in that medium as well.
So back on topic. Fire is not part of the Northeast for the following reasons
1.lightning strikes account for less than 3% of all fires.
2. Lightning usually occurs during rain when the forest cannot burn
3. Most lightning in the northeast is not cloud to ground lightning it's cloud to cloud.
4. Take a look at our mountains and show me one area that has burned due to lightning in the past 100 years. If our forests depended on fire it would happen much more frequently.

3 people died and 29 houses were destroyed in Colorado this past march due to a prescribed burn that started out as a 50 ac burn. The same size as the duck pond burn.


Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
We should note that the mention of "natural" fires is irrelevant. The risk that home owners are exposed to is uncontrolled forest fire. It makes no difference whether a fire that burns their home was started naturally or unnaturally. It might well be that more fires are started by careless humans, but it simply doesn't make a difference in their overall risk.

Reducing the fuel load in a forest by prescribed burns in a forest can significantly reduces the overall risk, not increase it. Some home insurance companies offer discounts for meeting standard fire prevention guidelines which can include prescribed burns to this effect.

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#65212 - 06/04/12 02:09 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
It still shows by the way that naural fire could not possibly be an important part of the forrest ecosystem in NYS.


But how a fire started is irrevalant. It poses the same danger regardless. Prescribed burns may help protect a home from any outside fire.


Edited by Mark Heyman (06/04/12 02:12 AM)

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#65219 - 06/04/12 11:22 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
cfrac Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Cfrac, the mohonk preserve is not the same as the landowners that own Lantern hill or Farley ledge and other private lands that are free and currently open to the public. We fully support Private landowners who allow access to their private property. We don't support many of the tactics that the Mohonk Preserve uses to acquire land. We are currently working on a tri state land access database that we think will be good for all landowners. It involves a partnership of land that is currently closed with land that is currently open and will be similar to Stopken.org except on a larger scale. The basic idea is that if you trespass on closed land you are then banned from all participating open lands as well. No one likes trespassers, even the Mohonk Preserve. As far as not liking anything about the Mohonk Preserve, nothing could be further from the truth. We look forward to the day when they can coexist in peace with all of their neighbors.

Thanks, MPNA


Here is a question that the MPNA/Advocacy Group refuses to answer. Why do you post as different people? Why all the obfuscation? The person quoted above sounds like the person who previously posted as Kent whereas the person who posted "Read your own links Jackass" sounds like the original Advocacy Group poster.
I participate in several different outdoors forums and one science forum and I have never encountered "multiple posters" for the same account. Honestly, it comes across as very creepy and as time goes on it becomes more transparent. I realize neither of you will answer me, but why not support your cause by posting as individuals and developing an online personality that doesn't seem so schizophrenic?

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#65220 - 06/04/12 12:11 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: cfrac]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards
FYI, I never post as AG/MPNA.

Edited to add: I think prescribed burns are a good idea.



Edited by Kent (06/04/12 12:33 PM)

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#65222 - 06/04/12 12:38 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Kent]
cfrac Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: Kent
FYI, I never post as AG/MPNA.

Edited to add: I think prescribed burns are a good idea.


If so, I apologize Kent. So, either there are multiple people posting under the AG/MPNA or someone goes through some major writing style changes as well as mood swings.

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#65223 - 06/04/12 01:23 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: cfrac]
Kent Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1038
Loc: The Bayards

No worries Chris.

I tried to PM you but it says I'm on your ignore user list.

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#65226 - 06/04/12 03:07 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Kent]
cfrac Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Maybe that explains why I can't see your posts when I'm logged in.

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#65230 - 06/04/12 04:02 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Kent]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
a.g. is coco for cocoa puffs and thrives to hate. the more hate posts the more we all want to support the preserve.

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#65236 - 06/04/12 04:58 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: crimpy]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
We have no choice. We must protect the Preserver from those like AG/MNPA!

Also good to hear from you on this Kent.

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#65237 - 06/04/12 05:05 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: cfrac]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
my thoery is A.G = bad cop. Skl = good cop....same person?

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#65327 - 06/07/12 03:36 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: crimpy]
acdnyc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 208
Loc: NYC/Kerhonkson
Many years ago, while my climbing partner was scrambling up the trail to set up an anchor above No Picnic, the former climber, who had just taking his parties anchor down was plodding past me with the hint of burned cannabis wafting off his cotton poly blend Patagonia t shirt. Less than a minute had gone buy when my friend comes crashing down and rifles through his pack and yanks out his water bottle. He then turns and runs toward the trail to scramble back up. He says that there is a small fire and needs the water to put it out. I ask if he needs help and he says he should be fine. He disappears over the little rise below 69 and I look up and see white puffs of what looks like wispy clouds but they are below the trees hanging above the cliff. I also notice how fast these wisps are moving and immediately grab my water bottles to lend a hand just in case this small fire grows due to wind.

As I reach the top of the trail I can hear the crackle of fire consuming dried leaves and small branches. I see my friend standing near a fast growing fire a few feet high and headed northeast with the wind. His empty nalagene bottle swinging from his finger tips. Embers and ash are blowing by my already sweaty face from the heat. As the fire races to a large dry bush I dump my water bottles at its base and it hisses in anger as it suddenly dies. Luckily, the fire was a narrow scar in the dry vegetation and my quick decision has saved the ridge from total destruction. I realize I'm sucking in air stained with burnt wood and leaves when my friend pats me on the back and states that he is glad I didn't listen to him, this time.

Feeling like a hero, I wipe some sweat from my eyes and smile back and before I can respond with some jape I hear the snap of water releasing from dead wood. I jerk my head around and a red flapping arm reaches up and grabs the bush I just saved. The crackling almost sounds like a cackling wood witch in my ears as she cast her spell of mass destruction. As the bush starts to scream in agony and the fire starts to pull its way into it. We look at each other and my friend says what are we going to do.

I jump towards the raging red witch and do the only thing I can do. I piss on her. Again, I hear hissing defiant screams. I'm a heavy drinker, mostly the dark brown frothy malty type, but not today! It was many mugs of coffee, juice and water. Need to stay hydrated when climbing in hot dry weather, you know. As I hysterically laugh and curse the red flames I try and extinguish her malice and hate for all things dry and dead with my straw colored stream. As I feel a glowing since of enlightenment for being such a great and strong protector of the wood ridge I have grown to love and as my mighty stream starts to fade to my dismay I hear her laughing and her jeers. They seem distant at first, but they leap back at my face as her red arms leap up again to destroy the shrubbery I had so gallantly tried to protect with my honor. To protect my honor I jump back and zip up, carefully not to snag any honor. The world seems to spin and it feels as if the woods are sucking in air as they brace for their impending doom.

Suddenly, I'm pushed to the side, not rudely just firmly, and my friend leaps in to the fray. He yells for me to get back as he unleashes his own water death upon our common foe. The red witch, in her lustful and wanton love of fiery carnage, has reached out and tried to pull in a small dead tree into her burning grasp. I turn, and find a relatively straight branch and use it to actually beat the witch's grasp off the dead tree. My friend has succeeded where I have failed. He has saved the bush and I had beaten the witch's last attempt to destroy all things dry and dead. I use the branch to scrape the ground and leaves to reveal any of her spawn and stomp them back into the hell they belong.

My friend and I, with stern looks on our faces, for we realize what we just did and how much we saved turn and face the wind and look into the distant sun high over the nears. Standing there we pause, feeling the cool effect of the strong breeze, we hear a distant calling as if someone is trying to reach us from some higher plain. To our dismay its not some higher force recognizing our selfless act it's the stoned climber calling us from the carriage road. He's lost himself in his self-induced high and asks if his roach had started a fire. I yell back with the bitter taste of ash and smoke in my mouth, "No, because we put it out." With a pie eyed grin on his face he waves and saunters up the carriage road and out of our lives for good.

After a few minutes to make sure the red witch will not return we gather our water bottles and our climbing gear and do what every other climber would do. We pack up and head to the Brau for some cold beer and good food.

The one thing I've always wondered about that day is if a fire is started by a roach, is it natural?
_________________________
jugs or mugs

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#65346 - 06/08/12 01:08 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: acdnyc]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Awesome read! Clearly you are a manly man such as only the cliffs can spawn. Kudos to you and your partner.

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#65364 - 06/09/12 05:02 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: chip]
Advocacy group Offline
addict

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
'Prescribed burn' literally backfires, blaze threatening homes
Box Creek Fire
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65365 - 06/09/12 05:06 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
High winds, temps keeping 270 firefighters busy after prescribed burn.
The most dangerous wildfire burning in Utah was started by the U.S. Forest Service in mid-May to protect homes.
Instead, about 25 homes in Sevier and Piute counties have been evacuated and a crew of wildland firefighters are camping beside them in case the flames from the Box Creek Fire approach. The fire was estimated to have cost $700,000 and rising going into this weekend.
Firefighting went well on Friday and crews hoped for significant progress Saturday, said Jason Kling, the district ranger for the Richfield Ranger District on the Fishlake National Forest. While winds blew steady from the southwest to northeast, firefighters on the ground and helicopters and airplanes dousing the blaze with water were able to prevent any significant expansion of the fire.

But strong winds were expected to return and temperatures to be high again by mid-day Saturday. The Box Creek Fire is estimated to have burned about 2,300 acres. There is no estimate for when the fire will be contained.

The Box Creek Fire began in mid-May. The Forest Service wanted to reduce the number of conifer trees and brush in an area that includes the seasonal homes as well as Box Creek Reservoir and the Piute ATV trail, Kling said. The fear was those trees and brush would be fuel for an uncontrolled fire.

So a crew from the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management ignited about 200 acres. Kling said the prescribed burn was "a success." So on May 29, the crew ignited another 650 acres.

That burn also appeared successful, Kling said. Firefighters camped overnight to monitor the fire, but the number of personnel gradually was reduced as the fire dissipated, Kling said.

A few firefighters remained on hand Monday, Kling said. That's when winds gusted and an ember "blew across the meadow into some thick fuel," Kling said.

Kling said the firefighters didn't see any signs of trouble until the untreated area began burning. More firefighters were immediately dispatched to the area, but they couldn't contain the spread.

"We were comfortable. We thought we were OK," Kling said of the situation that existed until Monday afternoon. "It was almost a week later since we initially lit."

story continues belowstory continues below
Kling said the good news is the Box Creek Fire is burning now rather than in July when fire conditions across the state are expected to be worse.

Still, Kling acknowledged the evacuated homeowners are upset.

"They have a right to be," Kling said.

About 270 firefighters and at least a half dozen aircraft fought the Box Creek Fire on Friday.

Sevier County Commissioner Gordon Topham said while the Box Creek Fire is mostly burning conifers and aspen, there is some grazing rangeland for livestock being destroyed for the season.

"Everyone usually gets upset when we have a fire, but in the end result we get awfully good rangeland," Topham said. "It's good health for the forest."

Elsewhere in Utah, crews launched an all-out effort Friday to hem in several Utah wildfires, racing against the arrival of high winds this weekend that prompted a "Red Flag" fire danger warning covering most of the state.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65366 - 06/09/12 05:09 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Only a stretch of northern Utah from Logan running south to Provo, and a pocket of eastern Utah around Vernal , escaped inclusion in the National Weather Service's extreme fire risk advisory.

The region's largest blaze, the 6,251-acre White Rock Fire, was 90 percent contained. Fire Incident Commander John Kidd said full containment was expected sometime Saturday, after crews — once 300-strong, but in the process of being demobilized Friday — completed mopping up remaining hot spots. The fire was burning amid the pinyon, juniper, sagebrush and grass in the Hamlin Valley area along the Nevada-Utah border, about 25 miles northeast of Caliente, Nev.

Wildfires keeping crews busy across southcentral Utah.
The White Rock Fire was begun by lightning on June 1. On June 2, an air tanker crash killed two Idaho pilots. National Transportation Safety Board investigators have been at the crash site this past week trying to determine a cause.

More than 400 firefighters were pulling out all the stops in trying to bring to heel the Lost Lake Fire, southwest of the Wayne County town of Teasdale. GPS mapping revised the size of that blaze to just over 1,900 acres, down from an earlier estimate of 2,300. Interagency Fire Center spokesman Jason Curry said Friday that the fire was 10 percent contained.

"We don't have an estimate for when it will be fully contained. The wind events expected this weekend make that sort of a wild-card situation," he said. "If we get past the wind, then we'll have a better idea."

Curry said a voluntary evacuation of six summer homes along the fire's edge remained in place.

By Friday afternoon, crews battling the flames in grass and timber expected a big boost with five large "Type I" water-bearing helicopters expected to join the fray. "Those heavy helicopters can dump a lot of water on the fire," Curry said.

The Lake Creek Fire in Garfield County, about 10 miles northwest of Boulder and 15 miles north of Escalante, had topped 1,100 acres. About 120 firefighters were battling that blaze. There was no estimate for its containment.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65368 - 06/09/12 08:01 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Good thing they burned it before it happend naturally!
Carfeull there in Gardener, the flames are almost there!

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#65371 - 06/09/12 10:28 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Good thing they burned it before it happend naturally!
Carfeull there in Gardener, the flames are almost there!



You almost got it Jersey boy! It's Gardiner.....
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65381 - 06/10/12 03:54 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Since you have just agreed that MPNA homes in Gardiner are at risk of prescibed burn started in Utah please harrass people there.

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#65383 - 06/10/12 01:14 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Mark Heyman]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
$2.50 in the jar...biatch. the jersey crew is aware of your ignorant regionalism....makes you appear even more ridiculous and less credible.

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#65384 - 06/10/12 01:44 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Since you have just agreed that MPNA homes in Gardiner are at risk of prescibed burn started in Utah please harrass people there.




You mean harass? Just sayin..........
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65385 - 06/10/12 02:06 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Since you have just agreed that MPNA homes in Gardiner are at risk of prescibed burn started in Utah please harrass people there.



I just want to make sure we're on the same page here Jersey Boy. You do mean prescribed not "prescibed" right? Just slow down a bit and stop getting caught up in the heat of the moment...... Wait that's the wrong band sorry, just slow down a bit so once again you don't get shot down in a blaze of glory...... smile
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65386 - 06/10/12 02:11 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
cha ching, cha ching....mohonk preserve just got so more.

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#65387 - 06/10/12 02:13 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
this is climbing site not a spelling b iatch.

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#65393 - 06/10/12 03:17 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Since you have just agreed that MPNA homes in Gardiner are at risk of prescibed burn started in Utah please harrass people there.


perhaps this Springsteen quote is more apropos?

"we learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in school".
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65554 - 06/21/12 11:21 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
The Mohonk Preserve took another beating in this weeks New Paltz times for their prescribed burn program. This time it was from one of the fireman who fought the "overlook" fire. The Mohonk Preserve needs to realize that fire does not play a role in Northeast forest ecology and burning a park that is surrounded by 200+ neighbors is both foolish and a serious breach of its neighbors safety.

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65555 - 06/21/12 01:24 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
fire does not play a role in Northeast forest ecology...MPNA


One search first click came up with this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/nyregion/21minnewaska.html

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
"we learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in school".


Most of us would agree that there are far more authoritative sources of information.


Edited by Mark Heyman (06/21/12 01:35 PM)

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#65556 - 06/21/12 01:54 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Mark Heyman]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
fire does not play a role in Northeast forest ecology...MPNA


One search first click came up with this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/nyregion/21minnewaska.html

Up thread are a number of links that clearly refute mipna's assertion - but since they support the Preserve's position on the need for prescribed burns, he chooses to not believe the scientific evidence. It's an attitude that basically says "If I didn't see it occur, then it didn't happen."

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#65557 - 06/21/12 02:28 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Mark Heyman]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
fire does not play a role in Northeast forest ecology...MPNA


One search first click came up with this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/nyregion/21minnewaska.html

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
"we learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in school".


Most of us would agree that there are far more authoritative sources of information.



Oh you must mean Jon Bon Jovi eh Jersey Boy?
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65558 - 06/21/12 02:32 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
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Fire ecology is not even mentioned in your nyt link RetroMarcC. Nice try though!
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65585 - 06/22/12 12:00 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
I was just quoting what you wrote.
Heres the entire post;

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Since you have just agreed that MPNA homes in Gardiner are at risk of prescibed burn started in Utah please harrass people there.


perhaps this Springsteen quote is more apropos?

"we learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in school".

Top
#65590 - 06/22/12 12:50 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Fire ecology is not even mentioned in your nyt link RetroMarcC. Nice try though!

Not my link. Your reading comprehension in this and the WhiteCliff thread is at an all time low.
And why do you keep calling me RetroMarcC?

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#65698 - 06/25/12 12:01 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Rob, this is from Gabe Chapin. "Oak forests across the Northeast, including those in the Shawangunks, are failing to regenerate as they once did," said Gabe Chapin, Land Steward for The Nature Conservancy's Shawangunk Ridge Program. "Some scientists attribute this lack of regeneration to the absence of fire,"

Your PM is at odds with what Gabe Chapin who directs all of the controlled burns in the gunks says.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65699 - 06/25/12 12:03 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Rob, here is one of your quotes:

You can draw any conclusion and opinion you want about prescribed burning and it's effectivenes versus cost and risk. Many people who are learned in the subject do, but everyone who does have some knowledge about natural ecosystem cycles agrees on fire's role in it. You can't just dismiss the science because of your social or political view. The science is indisputable.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65700 - 06/25/12 12:07 AM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
And another qoute from RangerRob:

Fire is one element in a healthy ecosystem. Every ecologist on the planet knows this.

This seems to be at odds with what Gabe Chapin says and many others as well. Any thoughts?
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65732 - 06/25/12 10:40 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: retroscree]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5969
Loc: 212 land
And why do you keep calling me RetroMarcC?

MarcC, who doesn't post here anymore, has a better sense of humor than the acerbic Retroscree.
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#65734 - 06/25/12 11:38 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: oenophore]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Wawarsing
good show, that just may be the case my good man.

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#65787 - 07/02/12 03:07 PM Re: Prescribed Burns [Re: crimpy]
Smike Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/01/01
Posts: 3143
Loc: in your backyard
Don't have time to read through the 9 pages of dribble here, just my own 1st hand experience with almost losing a home to fire on the ridge in 2008


1. Fire suppression by years of miss-guided policies lead to an extreme buildup of fuel.
2. 2008 rolls around and boom... goes the powder keg on state land in my backyard.
3. Fire comes within 1/4 mile of my house. We were about 2 steps away from being asked to evacuate.

Suppress fire long enough in an ecosystem created by fire and the results will be catastrophic.
For land owners that own property in a landscape shaped by fire (i.e the Ridge) it's up to them to take action to make changes to mitigate risk of fire lose. (http://www.firewise.org/)

The state and local agencies should burn all the can, at the same time homeowners should work to make their property less as risk. (You can't have any effective long term policy without both)

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