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#65494 - 06/17/12 08:24 PM "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED
Advocacy group Offline
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Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
MOKULEIA, Hawaii - A 12-year-old girl's life-threatening injuries has spurred the state into action.
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The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65495 - 06/18/12 01:22 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: Advocacy group]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
I believe that the state is trying to be responsible. And this kind of responsibility happens when the rock-climbing community themselves become irresponsible. The rock-climbing community should be policing itself and dealing with people or groups who are unsafe. Am I my brothers keeper? Yes!

How unsafe? Foremost children have no business in a hardhat area. How can you put a helmet on a minor and put them in an area where there are potentially falling rocks, or above other people when they could dislodge loose rocks?

I would suggest at this point if clubs where formed in MOKULEIA, Hawaii that carried insurance and were responsible that should solve the problem. But not to bring minors up to the cliff to make a profit. The state should be focusing on what it allows minors to do, not on rock-climbing. I am sure at one time when autos where first invented minors used to drive cars here and there. And when there is the inevitable accident the fault should lie with the person that put them behind the wheel and the fact that people allowed children to drive. Banning rock-climbing is the same as banning driving an automobile or banning surfing or banning the use of firearms or banning sex. To climb means there are grave responsibilities and grave decisions that can effect people permanently, decisions that only adults should be allowed to make.

There may be some things children can do, but it should be limited. Take them to Great Adventure.



Edited by donald perry (06/18/12 01:49 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65497 - 06/18/12 02:41 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: donald perry]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 816
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: donald perry
... Foremost children have no business in a hardhat area. How can you put a helmet on a minor and put them in an area where there are potentially falling rocks, or above other people when they could dislodge loose rocks?

...To climb means there are grave responsibilities and grave decisions that can effect people permanently, decisions that only adults should be allowed to make.

There may be some things children can do, but it should be limited. Take them to Great Adventure.



That being said, didn't you take your son Josh up onto El Cap's Zodiac when he was 13 as you posted last season? How old were your children when you took them for their very first climbs? crazy

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#65499 - 06/18/12 03:01 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: Rickster]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: donald perry
... Foremost children have no business in a hardhat area. How can you put a helmet on a minor and put them in an area where there are potentially falling rocks, or above other people when they could dislodge loose rocks?

...To climb means there are grave responsibilities and grave decisions that can effect people permanently, decisions that only adults should be allowed to make.

There may be some things children can do, but it should be limited. Take them to Great Adventure.



That being said, didn't you take your son Josh up onto El Cap's Zodiac when he was 13 as you posted last season? How old were your children when you took them for their very first climbs? crazy


I stand behind what I said. I think it is mistake to take minors rock-climbing, I cannot say anything more or less.

However if there is a lot of control where there would be less danger as in a climbing gym or at Great Adventure that makes a difference. If you have two people with 30 years experience on an overhanging wall where loose rocks are not an issue that makes a difference.

I stand behind what I said, it is not advisable, I would not admit it is wise to take minors rockclimbing. You can have some close calls. What do you think Rickster? Is it safe to take minors or groups of minors rockclimbing?


Edited by donald perry (06/18/12 03:04 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65500 - 06/18/12 03:17 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: donald perry]
oenophore Online   confused
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Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5935
Loc: 212 land
In the midst of this controversy, no one has posted anything about what happened at Mokuleia.
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#65501 - 06/18/12 03:23 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: oenophore]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4269
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: oenophore
In the midst of this controversy, no one has posted anything about what happened at Mokuleia.


No doubt because it affects all of us so severely and directly. wink

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#65502 - 06/18/12 03:25 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: oenophore]
Advocacy group Offline
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Posts: 653
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Originally Posted By: oenophore
In the midst of this controversy, no one has posted anything about what happened at Mokuleia.


the article did not post due to this site being buggy. Sorry.

Mpna
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65503 - 06/18/12 03:36 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: donald perry]
ianmanger Offline
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Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Originally Posted By: donald perry
...

I stand behind what I said, it is not advisable, I would not admit it is wise to take minors rockclimbing. You can have some close calls. What do you think Rickster? Is it safe to take minors or groups of minors rockclimbing?

Yeah, you're missing the point here, comme toujours. You should be asking yourself this question. Oh, wait, you qualified it. As long as you have 30 years of experience and on an overhanging wall etc..Now, would that be 30 calendar years, or the '30 years of going to the crag everyday' thing that you keep droning on about?

I happen to think that you're largely correct, but as usual you paint with a big broad brush and then realize you need something a little finer. Or don't, because your own rules don't apply to you. Which is it?

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#65504 - 06/18/12 04:16 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: oenophore]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: oenophore
In the midst of this controversy, no one has posted anything about what happened at Mokuleia.

AG is once again being vague and using implication to make a supposed point, without citing a source. If you Google:
MOKULEIA, Hawaii - A 12-year-old girl's life-threatening injuries has spurred the state into action.
...you find several articles.

Basically, a 12 yr old girl was part of a scout troop getting a rock climbing orientation at the base of the wall and was hit by a falling rock. She was not yet wearing her helmet.

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#65505 - 06/18/12 04:25 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: oenophore
In the midst of this controversy, no one has posted anything about what happened at Mokuleia.

AG is once again being vague and using implication to make a supposed point, without citing a source. If you Google:
MOKULEIA, Hawaii - A 12-year-old girl's life-threatening injuries has spurred the state into action.
...you find several articles.

Basically, a 12 yr old girl was part of a scout troop getting a rock climbing orientation at the base of the wall and was hit by a falling rock. She was not yet wearing her helmet.




Basically a bug error clipped the article which was copied and pasted..... But hey if it caused RetroMarcC to short circuit then all is good. You can find more info on RC.

Thanks, MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65506 - 06/18/12 04:27 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: Advocacy group]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
In any event the wall has been closed and is now off limits.
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65507 - 06/18/12 07:14 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: retroscree]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 328
Loc: Wawarsing
looks what happens when you feed the troll.

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#65508 - 06/18/12 07:29 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: Advocacy group]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5935
Loc: 212 land
Here's a link from a Honolulu TV broadcaster.
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#65510 - 06/18/12 08:18 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: oenophore]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Thanks oenophore!
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65513 - 06/19/12 12:55 AM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: crimpy]
retroscree Offline
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Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: crimpy
looks what happens when you feed the troll.

He does seem to go hypertensive when presented with facts or direct questions. Still hasn't said anything of substance about the Cannan Road car ticketing and towing, despite being asked repeatedly by others. He's also delusional enough to think that all the page views of his other thread are actually humans who give a crap about his little battle with the evil Preserve instead of the search engine, ad farms, and other robots they actually are.

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#65515 - 06/19/12 02:01 AM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: ianmanger]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey

No, my own rules apply to me too; they apply to me as standing corrected. I guess in a way you could be asking would I do it again. And I suppose I would say yes. The risk was very limited. But does this mean that my rule does not apply to me because I break it?, that it is not foolish and dangerous for me to take minors rock-climbing? That's the point. You tell me, what do you think?

However, I do think you can make yourself out to be less stupid and less dangerous when you decide to get your children on a rope more than 3' off the ground. How do you make yourself to be anything other than only less stupid and a less irresponsible? God forbid, if something happens, do you think there is anything you can say in your defense? Isn't that the point? What could you say?, nothing.

Is it possible I would have taken my son up to that cliff and a rock would land on his head in Mokuleia today? Probably not very likely. Why? First of all, I would never let a guide take him, as was the case in Mokuleia. Second, I would not let him stand under other people. Third, he would have a helmet on so I would have less to worry about, as he always did have a helmet. Fourth, I would have gone up to the top and removed all the loose rock first while someone else was on the ground with a walkie-talkie to make sure it is safe. That's what we did at Millbrook. Fifth, I hate crowds. Sixth, I would not want my son falling on cliffs, it would be better for him and me that he was spending most of his time falling on video games, and that is just what happened, for the most part. Now he is addicted to video games. He spent a lot of time on Call Of Duty.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65516 - 06/19/12 02:05 AM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: retroscree]
Advocacy group Offline
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Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 653
Loc: New Paltz,Marbletown,Gardiner,...
Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: crimpy
looks what happens when you feed the troll.

He does seem to go hypertensive when presented with facts or direct questions. Still hasn't said anything of substance about the Cannan Road car ticketing and towing, despite being asked repeatedly by others. He's also delusional enough to think that all the page views of his other thread are actually humans who give a crap about his little battle with the evil Preserve instead of the search engine, ad farms, and other robots they actually are.



It's Canaan...... must be tough to know all the roads hailing from Sandy Utah eh RetromarcC? Besides, what do you want a thesis on the parking situation around the preserve? Seems pretty simple really.......

MPNA
_________________________
The MPNA is an advocacy group for adjacent neighbors of the Mohonk Preserve. In the event of a dispute with the Mohonk Preserve, we can offer assistance in obtaining experts in the following areas; Surveying, Lawyers, Title, expert witnesses, ancient document research, and Maps.

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#65519 - 06/19/12 02:40 AM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: Advocacy group]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
I think if I was to think about running around chopping bolts somewhere undercover I would think to chopping arguments instead, otherwise what's the point? People would keep drilling them just as fast as you chop bolts. You have to change people's minds, chopping bolts would not do that. You have to get the people to agree with you. Simply chopping bolts in a place where it is accepted does not accomplish anything.

BTW, I do not think AG did that. She does not seem like the type.


Edited by donald perry (06/19/12 02:43 AM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65520 - 06/19/12 03:00 AM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: donald perry]
Mark Heyman Offline
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
There is no logical reason to close a crag because someone gets hurt xcept due to liablty issues on private proterty. Mokuleia is on State Land? Hawaii isn't about to ban surfing because poeple (many people) get hurt, and all across America we let (encourage) youth to do "dangerous" things with helmets. Riding bicycles and foot ball might start the list.

So IMHO there is no good reason to disallow climbing at Mokuleia - which has nothig to do with what happen there.

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#65521 - 06/19/12 12:47 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: Mark Heyman]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 816
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
After reading a few of the online reports regarding the accident at Mokuleia, a few thoughts.

Unlike the remainder of the group, the victim had not yet put her helmet on as they approached the crag, or possibly had removed it. The group was still walking along the approach trail at the time of the accident.

The rock's size estimate and distance of travel vary from one report to another. A 25 lb rock fell 20 ft., or a 30 lb rock fell >50 ft.

Such a rock fall impact would have far exceeded the design parameters of most rock climbing helmets.

The camp group was lead by counselors and did not have the proper permit.

There is a local commercial guide service that works that crag, but there is no record of them having ever had the appropriate permits either. Apparently, ranger inforcement of the permit policy has been weak.

As for closing the park to climbing, maybe it's a knee jerk reaction, but rock climbing is a relatively new activity in Hawaii, and isn't considered in the park's master plan.

Now as the result of a tragic accident, they're forced to review the activity and hopefully for the local climbing community, make positive and appropriate adjustments to their master plan.

Best wishes to the 12 year old victim, for a full recovery and hopes that this event doesn't prompt the permanent closure of the state's most popular climbing venue.

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#65523 - 06/19/12 02:22 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: Advocacy group]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
Now as the result of a tragic accident, they're forced to review the activity and hopefully for the local climbing community, make positive and appropriate adjustments to their master plan.



Climbing a classic 5.10 at the Mokuleia crag on Oa
Photo: Marc Bourdon

After a crazy climbing trip to Turkey, we were ready for some tropical sun and sand, and with relatives living in Hawaii, we didn't have to look far. But what many people don't know is there's actually decent climbing on the island of Oahu. Currently, there are two main climbing options: the bouldering at Waimea Bay and the cliffs at Mokuleia. The bouldering at Waimea is smooth basalt with pockets, edges and jugs, and the sport climbing at Mokuleia is also basalt, but this time it's formed into columns.

About 40 routes exist from 5.7 to 5.13- and the climbing is predominantly up corners and on smooth, technical aretes. Apparently, a new guidebook to the climbing on the island is on the way, and that would really open up the options for visitors. Watch for it. Interestingly, there's also a new climbing gym in Honolulu, although it will likely pale in comparison to some of the major gyms found across North America. Still, if you need a workout...

If you are a climber, it's definitely worth bringing a rope and draws to the island if you need your climbing fix. If not, simply take in the incredible scenery, beaches and hiking.


















Edited by donald perry (06/19/12 02:40 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65524 - 06/19/12 02:26 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: donald perry]
crimpy Offline
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Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 328
Loc: Wawarsing
nice.

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#65525 - 06/19/12 02:30 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: donald perry]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
I think my world would have been much less appealing if all danger had been removed. The many potential benefits of activities such a climbing for this next generation are well documented and further proof is the vast amount of money our nation spends exposing our youth to it every year. While we would like to shield our kids from all harm, this is exactly the opposite of what they need in order to learn to self-manage as they become increasingly responsible. No one would propose putting children in a situation where they will definitely be hurt but teaching them to manage risk is extreamely important.

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#65526 - 06/19/12 02:58 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: chip]
donald perry Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: chip
No one would propose putting children in a situation where they will definitely be hurt but teaching them to manage risk is extreamely important.


Most rockclimbers don't know what to do with loose rocks or how to manage them, but this is the way all cliffs are in the beginning. For example, the Palisades and road cuts can be loose. When I first started climbing it was on a lot of basalt. On basalt cliffs you start at the top and work your way down first removing all the loose rocks. On some rock you need to do this every year. When you get to a handhold on basalt you need to look for cracks to understand what you are holding on to, if it is a loose rock. If it looks questionable you don't play with it, you don't test it out, you leave it alone. The reason for this is, if you test it and then it comes loose then you may not be able to hold it in place. If your are going to test it be prepaired to drop it. But this is something that needs to be done from the top down, and with a spotter on the ground with communication.

Climbing, like race car driving, is really an adult sport. Unless it is a climbing gym.


Rock Climbing in Hawaii

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvTHeBJ_gkA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afI58PRmTJ0&feature=related






Edited by donald perry (06/19/12 03:19 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#65527 - 06/19/12 03:11 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: donald perry]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
But in your own words..

Originally Posted By: donald perry

I would suggest at this point if clubs where formed in MOKULEIA, Hawaii that carried insurance and were responsible that should solve the problem.


...and now you're advocating trundling/active management, when all we needed previously was insurance and a responsible club?

Maybe you should develop a comprehensive master plan that includes all of these elements, and also addresses random helicopter crashes, fluoride, nuclear meltdown and HIV. Don't forget to include plenty of free parking....

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#65528 - 06/19/12 03:19 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: ianmanger]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 816
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
But in your own words..

Originally Posted By: donald perry

I would suggest at this point if clubs where formed in MOKULEIA, Hawaii that carried insurance and were responsible that should solve the problem.


...and now you're advocating trundling/active management, when all we needed previously was insurance and a responsible club?

Maybe you should develop a comprehensive master plan that includes all of these elements, and also addresses random helicopter crashes, fluoride, nuclear meltdown and HIV. Don't forget to include plenty of free parking....


TICKS, Don't forget the TICKS!

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#65529 - 06/19/12 03:24 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: ianmanger]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
But in your own words..

Originally Posted By: donald perry

I would suggest at this point if clubs where formed in MOKULEIA, Hawaii that carried insurance and were responsible that should solve the problem.


...and now you're advocating trundling/active management, when all we needed previously was insurance and a responsible club?

Maybe you should develop a comprehensive master plan that includes all of these elements, and also addresses random helicopter crashes, fluoride, nuclear meltdown and HIV. Don't forget to include plenty of free parking....


Well, I think if there was origination than there would be cliff maintenance too. That's what that pile of choss at the top of the cliff down needs. That's one of the main reason for loose rocks falling off the cliff at any given time.

The tenticals of Redirectionalism at Millbrook reached far and wide, and all the rocks were removed as far as could be found. And when we climbed, it was not over the top of our belay.


Edited by donald perry (06/19/12 05:54 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

Top
#65553 - 06/21/12 03:51 AM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: donald perry]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I believe that the state is trying to be responsible ... I would suggest at this point if clubs where formed in MOKULEIA, Hawaii that carried insurance and were responsible that should solve the problem.


Reopening the wall would solve the problem too. Again why don't Hawaiians select surfing over climbing as too dangerous?

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#65563 - 06/21/12 03:57 PM Re: "The Wall" at Mokuleia CLOSED [Re: Mark Heyman]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 816
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Mark Heyman
Originally Posted By: donald perry
I believe that the state is trying to be responsible ... I would suggest at this point if clubs where formed in MOKULEIA, Hawaii that carried insurance and were responsible that should solve the problem.


Reopening the wall would solve the problem too. Again why don't Hawaiians select surfing over climbing as too dangerous?


That's a rhetorical question, right? Imagine Hawaii closing their shores to surfing? It's so ingrained into their culture, economics, history as to be a cornerstone of their entire society.

I suppose they'll do their due diligence, and eventually reopen the crag.

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