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#66110 - 08/02/12 06:04 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: rg@ofmc]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
There is no current mechanism for consensus among the very wide-spread Gunks climbing community.


Certainly not. Was there ever, though (this is an honest, not a sarcastic, question; I am honestly interested)?

I scrolled quickly through this thread and tallied what I perceived as responses:

Keep / maintain / bolt the anchor:
Worthrussell
TrappDyke
Stoopid
Mummert
JHurwitz
whatthegunks
climbingbetty
Rickster
wivanov
Valpine
JohnM
RrrrRob
Kim

Choppity Chop Chop Chop:
pitfall
RG
Dana
Seth
Adrian
Julie
Doug
Retroscree
retr2327 ?
Coppertone ?
Talus
Mark Heyman
Lucander
Wombat
MrTastyCakes, mmm
Fallenglass
schwortz
Bill
tradjunkie
socialist1
OldEric
Ianmanger
fotovult

**** if I have missed, misread or misrepresented your view, please accept my apologies, and let me know.


Edited by Julie (08/02/12 06:29 PM)

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#66111 - 08/02/12 06:45 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Julie]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Julie, probably not, although the opportunity for consensus to grow "organically" was naturally greater when there were fewer people and fewer styles of climbing. Leadership made an enormous difference; specifically Stannard's amazing efforts to convert the Gunks to "clean climbing."

In the late 1980's, the Preserve held a series of climber forums to inform a decision about whether to allow climbers unrestricted bolting ability. (Of course, very sporadic bolting had already occurred, but a new onslaught was in the offing, driven by the best young climbers on the scene and made feasible by the arrival power drills.)

Those meetings didn't produce consensus, but there was a convincing majority who felt the Gunks should not become a sport-climbing venue, and since this surely agreed with the Smiley's philosophy anyway, the result was the current restrictions on anchor placement.

Those meetings were the first and probably the last time the Gunks community gathered to debate the future direction of the cliffs. I haven't heard anything in more recent years that would suggest the Preserve, in spite of its roots in Quaker decision-making, would even consider a replay of those times.

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#66112 - 08/02/12 06:50 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Julie]
quanto_the_mad Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 2628
Loc: brooklyn
Originally Posted By: Julie

I scrolled quickly through this thread and tallied what I perceived as responses:

Keep / maintain / bolt the anchor:
...
Choppity Chop Chop Chop:
...


Those not wanting to beat a dead horse:
QTM
_________________________


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#66113 - 08/02/12 06:55 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: quanto_the_mad]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Quanto, hah! Sorry for beating the poor horse. I was just interested in what the actual numbers said. I was actually surprised at the total # (~35, more than "just the handful of the few of us who still come here"); not so surprised that it was about 2:1 against.

RG, what about the Appie / Vulgarian era in terms of cliff curation and consensus?

Two thoughts, both generalizations but: the late 80s was a) when you could still expect that a lot of folks would still know their way around evaluating and removing pitons; and b) before most fixed stuff had gotten around to being dangerously old. And c) pre- or peri- Aliens, of course.


Edited by Julie (08/02/12 07:14 PM)

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#66115 - 08/02/12 07:43 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Rickster]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Julie, You can count me in the chop group.
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Your plan seems sound.

But, to what end?

I understand some folks regularly use this as a rappel anchor (I have), but too often one sees it being used for top roping. If this is to beef up an anchor for top roping SOEO? Than I'd say no. If all the mank were removed, pins and all, would any leader be able to establish a sound anchor without pins? If so, I'd suggest cleaning it all out and not replacing the hardware.

Eitherway, thank you for your efforts. One way or the other, I'm sure it will be far safer than it is now.

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#66116 - 08/02/12 07:45 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Rickster]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
d'oh, I can no longer edit that post. Apologies for my lack of reading comprehension, Rick.

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#66117 - 08/02/12 08:15 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: Julie]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Julie, it may be hard to imagine now, when we see so much climber impact everywhere, but in the Appie/Vulgarian days the cliff was big, climbers were small, no one worried about impacts---it didn't seem as if climbers' presence could have any impact---and "curation" (nice term) wasn't on the radar. The occasional tree was cut down and the occasional bolt was placed and no one thought anything of it.

To expound a bit on things you did not ask, I think the first climbing environmental movement was against fixed pitons; this was led by Chouinard in the late fifties and early sixties. The idea was that as much as possible, every party should have the same experience as the first-ascent party. Chouinard looked at the Alps and saw huge classic climbs with fixed-pin ladders from bottom to top, and felt strongly that we should avoid that type of degradation in the U.S. and most particularly in Yosemite.

The piton ladders were there because the soft-iron pitons of the day were hard to remove and in any case could not stand up to repeated placing and removing. So Chouinard developed his line of chrome molly steel pitons that could be placed and removed sometimes hundreds of times, and promoted the idea that climbs should be left free of fixed gear.

Ironically, this turned out all wrong. Climbing became more popular, and the constant placing and replacing of chrome molly iron did enormous damage to cracks, especially in granite. Placements in granite that originally took rurps grew to the size of 1.5 inch angles (and made free climbs out of aid test-pieces). The Gunks suffered to a much lesser extent because the rock here is much harder than granite, but we developed our share of piton scars as well.

The destruction of climbs brought on by the desire to keep them pristine was a totally unexpected and unintended side-effect of hard steel. Chouinard was once again one of the leaders, risking his livelihood as a piton supplier by embracing and promoting "clean climbing." Although never fully appreciated on a national scale, Stannard was one of the major influences in a process that asked climbers to give up everything they understood about protection and embrace a method they knew nothing about.

But the original clean climbing implements were primitive, and even Chouinard's masterful improvements left many cracks in the Gunks that couldn't be protected with nuts. And so to some extent fixed pins came back---Stannard himself made and placed the best ones---as a necessary filler for the protection gaps left by clean gear.

The next development was cams, followed eventually by today's small cams, together with brass nuts and ballnuts, which together make almost all fixed pitons unnecessary and raises the possibility, for the first time in the half-century since Chouinard's original vision, that climbs could be left pristine in perpetuity.

But that vision has been clouded by the advent of the battery-powered drill, which has made extensive bolting a practical reality, and has made the comfortizing of climbs a realizable goal of considerable appeal to new generations of climbers, for whom the challenges of a crag in its natural state may no longer be of primary interest.


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#66118 - 08/02/12 09:29 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: rg@ofmc]
wombat Offline
member

Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 147
Loc: gardiner
RG

thanks for the last post.

Perhaps as a supplement to the saturday training sessions, we should have fireside beers with our esteemed predecessors. Maybe dropping some knowledge on those who have only known plastic and guides so far will help provide a new (old) perspective. A healthy respect for the climb might also help safety.

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#66119 - 08/02/12 10:56 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: rg@ofmc]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
RG's well-informed and thoughtful mini-essays in this forum provide food for thought. Now that this thread has been steered toward discussion of the impact of ever-increasing visitation of the Preserve by climbers and non-climbers, another issue comes to mind.
The Preserve has taken some small steps to ration visitation on the busiest days. One may argue pro and con about the desirability of such a policy. Shall only a selected subgroup be allowed in? Shall it be first-come-first-permitted-in? Each alternative may be deemed unfair for reasons that the reader can imagine. Note that even if every Preserve parking space is filled, there remains lots of room at the empty lot across from the Brauhaus.
_________________________

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#66120 - 08/02/12 11:08 PM Re: Son of easy o rap [Re: oenophore]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4275
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Bottom line - there is no consensus on this issue. Probably never will be. Attempts by each side to advance their viewpoint went around so many times I was getting a bit dizzy.

Unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

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