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#66682 - 10/04/12 02:37 AM Re: Pin on the 2nd crux of Something Interesting? [Re: Coppertone]
Andre Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: Coppertone
You can put 10 pieces of gear next to the pin on Apolplexy, all that pin does is save about 10 seconds placing gear.


Does anyone know the history (the who, what, when and how) behind the low pin on Apoplexy?

This pin is very new, as compared to the majority of the antiques found on a variety of Gunks routes. Given that the Gunks has a restriction regarding the installation of new fixed protection and that Apoplexy is so visible it's a mystery to me that it exists.


Edited by Andre (10/04/12 02:38 AM)

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#66683 - 10/04/12 03:14 AM Re: Pin on the 2nd crux of Something Interesting? [Re: Andre]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Andre, I first did Apoplexy in 1977 and that piton was in place then. It's grey, isn't it? If so, it was made by John Stannard. He made and placed pitons throughout the 'Gunks, hoping they would be left in place so that the cracks wouldn't be further damaged by iron being hammered and out - a real concern up until 1972. It looks new and has held up well because of its construction and, to a degree, because of where it is.


Edited by Dana (10/04/12 03:17 AM)

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#66684 - 10/04/12 04:01 AM Re: Pin on the 2nd crux of Something Interesting? [Re: Andre]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Andre
Given that the Gunks has a restriction regarding the installation of new fixed protection and that Apoplexy is so visible it's a mystery to me that it exists.

There is no restriction on replacing existing protection with the same. There was a pin there 40 years ago.

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#66685 - 10/04/12 09:53 AM Re: Pin on the 2nd crux of Something Interesting? [Re: Dana]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: Dana
Andre, I first did Apoplexy in 1977 and that piton was in place then. It's grey, isn't it? If so, it was made by John Stannard. He made and placed pitons throughout the 'Gunks, hoping they would be left in place so that the cracks wouldn't be further damaged by iron being hammered and out - a real concern up until 1972. It looks new and has held up well because of its construction and, to a degree, because of where it is.


That's my understanding as well. While it is unnecessary, I think it should be left there as an exhibit of what solid protection looked like a generation ago. It's not damaging the cliff being there.

Why do I think we need such a micro-museum? Because we're moving towards a point where new climbers might never have the chance to clip a real piton. There's a certain satisfaction to that IMO. Already we see climbers who don't know a bolt from a piton, and that's a sad statement about how clueless some newbies are about the history of the sport.

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#66687 - 10/04/12 12:29 PM Re: Pin on the 2nd crux of Something Interesting? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
phlan Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/00
Posts: 2778
Loc: Gardiner, NY
a lot of the historical Stannard pins are still there and are good (and I LOVE clipping 'em.) but they do need testing and maintenance...

it's the Kraus and Wiessner pins that are all but gone.

we URGENTLY need National Historic Landmark Status for these old pins! GCC, are you on this?!?
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#66688 - 10/04/12 12:39 PM Re: Pin on the 2nd crux of Something Interesting? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
I started climbing in Sept. '72 and leading Jan. '73. There were so many pins in place in the Gunks, my first rack was mostly biners and slings. Over the ensuing years, the number of resident pins has greatly diminished. I climb occasionally now, after a 20+ year hiatus. I'm surprised at how many pins are still in place, and sometimes shocked to see what some folks will clip into.

Stannard's angles have always stood out for their manufacture, longevity and their placement. Hence, their long life. But, as we've seen too often when pins do get pulled or otherwise removed, we've little idea what they look like deep inside the rock and too often they don't look to reassuring.

As for an historical or nostalgic justification for a pin? I don't agree with Mike. We don't climb with hemp ropes, hobbed boots, use bamboo piolets, or use a crank start on our automobiles or wash our cloths on a flat rock, for good reason. Want to understand the history of rock gear? Read a book, or visit the displays at R&S.

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#66689 - 10/04/12 02:29 PM Re: Pin on the 2nd crux of Something Interesting? [Re: Rickster]
Andre Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: Rickster
I'm surprised at how many pins are still in place, and sometimes shocked to see what some folks will clip into.



I'd say that is an understatement...the bent pin on Retribution, the old relics on Thin Slabs Direct and the two on Feast of Fools are certainly not confidence inspiring.

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#66690 - 10/04/12 03:46 PM Re: Pin on the 2nd crux of Something Interesting? [Re: Rickster]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Originally Posted By: Rickster
As for an historical or nostalgic justification for a pin? I don't agree with Mike. We don't climb with hemp ropes, hobbed boots, use bamboo piolets, or use a crank start on our automobiles or wash our cloths on a flat rock, for good reason. Want to understand the history of rock gear? Read a book, or visit the displays at R&S.


In the spirit of the Pres. Debate, I get two minutes to rebut.

Hemp climbing ropes, nailed boots, et al are no longer sold, so they are basically irrelevant. Pitons ARE still sold and are widely used in some (non-Gunks) situations. Thus quite relevant to developing climbers.

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#66691 - 10/04/12 07:55 PM Re: Pin on the 2nd crux of Something Interesting? [Re: Coppertone]
mrhutt Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 51
Loc: NJ
Are we talking about the big bong about half-way up the first pitch? If not, I'm clearly confused.

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#66692 - 10/04/12 10:26 PM Re: Pin on the 2nd crux of Something Interesting? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 847
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: Rickster
....Want to understand the history of rock gear? Read a book, or visit the displays at R&S.


In the spirit of the Pres. Debate, I get two minutes to rebut.

Hemp climbing ropes, nailed boots, et al are no longer sold, so they are basically irrelevant. Pitons ARE still sold and are widely used in some (non-Gunks) situations. Thus quite relevant to developing climbers.


In the spirit of the recent presential debate, I'll go over time to your rebuttal.

Just because pins are still for available, doesn't mean we need to pound them in where they are not needed. Bolts are for sale as well, should every aspiring and developing climber be getting a bolt kit? I certainly hope not.

I'm heading outside now to do the laundry on a rock creekside so I can better appreciate and celebrate the old ways.

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