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#69187 - 11/04/13 12:16 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Lucander]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Either works. 'Isn't exactly desirable' is weak sauce. As is claiming that a couple of old pins implies an historic descent route that should be grandfathered in to the collection of convenience anchors/poorly maintained piles of tat, since we actually know nothing. Chop and move along. Eliminate the possibility of cleaning up the mess you claim you want to avoid.

Originally Posted By: Lucander
ianmanger,

which alternative rap line do you recommend? going right to madame g/blueberry ledges adds to congestion. going left to three pines isn't exactly desirable.

as of last season the second anchor (pins mentioned above) were in good shape - supplemented with a few fixed pieces and fresh software.

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#69188 - 11/04/13 12:43 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: ianmanger]
retroscree Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: ianmanger
'Isn't exactly desirable' is weak sauce. As is claiming that a couple of old pins implies an historic descent route that should be grandfathered in to the collection of convenience anchors/poorly maintained piles of tat, since we actually know nothing.

+1
Anyone with half a brain can figure out that it's an ancient belay anchor, back when everyone walked off the top. Calling it a historic descent route is bullshit and lucander knows it.

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#69189 - 11/04/13 01:34 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: retroscree]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
The main historic descent routes (regularly used):

1. Uberfall
2. Radcliffe
3. Easy O unroped downclimb
4. Three Pines unroped downclimb
5. Silly Chimney unroped downclimb
6. Roger's Escape Hatch

There were no historic descent routes that involved rappelling. As retro says, the pins in question were more likely an old belay anchor.

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#69190 - 11/04/13 01:57 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Lucander]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: Lucander

...Folks who follow this site and plan accordingly by...(2) walking off towards the Uberfall alongside some other zealots who think it's a good use of their day off and would rather not be climbing another route or...


Oh come on. The Preserve established bolted rappel lines down the cliff. There is more than one close to the descent in question. Congestion on the rappel highways is a small and reasonable price to pay when the alternative is congestion everywhere, two-way traffic on routes, and dangerous rap stations that idiots use without thinking.

Since the Preserve seems to think the dumb yellow falling climber signs are ok, they should try something that will contribute to both safety and esthetics by marking the rap routes at the top so that the zealots who can't be bothered to learn even the tiniest non-climbing detail about their environment will be able to find their way down.

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#69191 - 11/04/13 01:59 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Lucander]
Rickster Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: Lucander
……..
Therefore, I posted about the condition of the anchor in question. Folks who follow this site and plan accordingly by (1) rappelling with double ropes (2) walking off towards the Uberfall alongside some other zealots who think it's a good use of their day off and would rather not be climbing another route or (3) bringing spare gear and reinforcing the anchor.


Who's the zealot? The climbers taking a casual walk along the ridge to return below after climbing or the fellow who seems to demand that a rap line be immediately available and adjacent to the route he has just finished so he can zip on down and move onto his next climb?

Lucander also fails to list a fourth option offered above and I believe currently used more often. That ever popular option being a walk along the ridge to the nearest of the established rappel routes.

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#69192 - 11/04/13 01:58 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Rickster]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Well, hang on, Lucander brings up a valid point. The rappel station at the TOP of the climb is in good condition off a big honkin' tree, which invites rappelling, particularly among less wise/experienced climbers. Rappelling there will dump them at the nasty pin station, and such climbers are unlikely to prussik back up and walk off.

[The more thoughtful climbers among them will have spied the piton rap anchor on their way up before descending, but one can't visit the station to inspect it on the way up. I can understand someone on Dry Martini seeing pitons with slings from afar, then reaching the big tree on top, thinking, "oh, this will get me to the piton rappel station I saw," and making the assumption that the good condition of the top station will be indicative of the condition of the middle station.]

Now, I posit that walking off will be faster in nearly all cases, but that's a larger discussion. Eliminating the rappel line will simply move the traffic to 3 Pines or Beginner's Delight / Minty / Snooky, none of which are more than a 2-3 minute clifftop stroll.

So let's all put the flamethrowers down. I think many of us agree that this particular rappel route is unnecessary. However, I think it will be difficult to permanently extinguish it until the tree at the top dies. Even if we do, in all likelihood the traffic will simply move to 3 Pines, Beginners Delight, and Minty/Snooky's, none of which need more clusterfookage than they currently have.

If y'all prefer to send traffic down 3 Pines, then let's cut the top anchor and see what happens. If it doesn't get replaced, great. Otherwise, I think replacing the pins is wise, especially since most of the casual climbers I'm referring to are unlikely to be able to back up the pins.

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#69193 - 11/04/13 02:24 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: rg@ofmc]
tradjunkie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 365
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
As retro says, the pins in question were more likely an old belay anchor.


RG, not in this case. There is no old route at the anchor in question, which is above a difficult roof. The only possibility of routes that would belay here is a 5.11 route I am not familiar with, Tits Like Orange Fireballs, which was first climbed in 1988, and which may go through the roof.

Otherwise, it's a strange spot for an anchor. One would have to traverse well off to the right of the obvious line of Tequila Mockingbird, ignoring various comfortable belay options, and strike out into a wide blank face.

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#69194 - 11/04/13 04:03 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: tradjunkie]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Originally Posted By: tradjunkie


If y'all prefer to send traffic down 3 Pines, then let's cut the top anchor and see what happens. If it doesn't get replaced, great.


I did this experiment, probably five years ago now. The rap station from the top reappears, and probably pretty quickly. Most likely this from climbers coming up from below thinking they can reach the 2-pin anchor exactly as you describe.

The only viable solution that does not involve major anchor work is to chop both. Then climbers coming up won't think of putting the top anchor back in, and climbers moving along the cliff won't see the top anchor and assume there is a viable rap route.

Clearly some climbers think its OK to remove gear that's left to back up the existing mank but I would rather not beef up the anchor permanently with new honking pins a la SOEO. Its not a major toprope destination, which was the argument advanced in that example and which I still find uncompelling.

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#69196 - 11/04/13 07:15 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: ianmanger]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Or maybe we need a BIG SIGN at the top (tree) rap station saying that this is a 50+ meter i.e. 2 rope rappel.

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#69212 - 11/08/13 06:31 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 227
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/old-anc...rades/108404216

Indian Creek seems to have a pretty efficient way of updating and maintaining anchors.

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