Shout Box

Who's Online
0 registered (), 10 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#67391 - 02/11/13 08:56 PM Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs
tallgirlnyc Offline
member

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 194
Loc: Cold Spring NY
I have some trouble leading roofs/overhangs. (To be honest, mostly what I lead are overhangs).
Even in the gym, approaching an overhang I start to psych myself out, start slowing down, losing confidence.

I am 6'1" and often feel like my center of gravity is about forty feet from my hands.
A few of the overhangs that don't give me trouble..1st pitch of Modern Times, 2nd pitch of Stop the Presses Mr. Williams. Overhangs that do give me trouble...No Picnic, 3rd pitch of Maria, 1st pitch Tequila Mockingbird, 2nd pitch Drunkards Delight...I could go on indefinitely.

My question is: Any suggestions or strategies for getting better at roofs/overhangs? Anyone else struggled and overcome?

Any and all help appreciated. Thanks!

Dana

Top
#67392 - 02/11/13 09:11 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: tallgirlnyc]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
I suspect that there will be quite a few tips you'll get and they will differ. Weightlifting worked for me in my day. I also suspect that being strong helped my mind, especially conquering fear of failure due to lack of endurance. I've seen people weaker than me do better than me on overhangs and roofs due just due to mind over matter. And, alas, I offer no tips about that.
_________________________

Top
#67394 - 02/11/13 11:06 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: tallgirlnyc]
crimpy Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 330
Loc: Wawarsing
more aggressive shoes?

Top
#67395 - 02/12/13 12:11 AM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: crimpy]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Go back to the beginning. Spend some time on all those easier climbs with overlaps, overhangs etc.. Wrap your mind around the experience of turning your back to the ground, not being able to see what's up above you, or reaching "blindly" over the lip, getting your hips positioned properly under the overhang and then as you move around. Or that commitment necessary to move that first foot over the lip. There are after all many easy overhang climbs for getting more comfortable with the experience. A couple of days early in the season will pay dividends later. Good luck and enjoy.

Top
#67396 - 02/12/13 04:18 AM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: Rickster]
rg@ofmc Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I think you'll get a lot of good advice about technique and mental attitude, and there are important things to be said about these things.

But I'm going to suggest you go on a crusade to increase your hand endurance. There is nothing like being able to hang on to improve your footwork, body position, and mental outlook. Not to mention you have the gas to get in higher gear and have enough reserves to climb down if things aren't working out.

There's a ton of advice out there on this subject. I'm interested myself, since it has turned out to be very hard at my advanced age to recover hand endurance after seven months of being out of action from my ACL repair. I can only say that many of the recommendations from books and the internet I've read haven't really worked for me, perhaps because they are really aimed at a much younger and much more capable person. I think all you can do is read up and experiment with a bunch of things and try to discover what works best for you.

Here are three observations that may or may not be of any use: (1) You can go a long way in the Gunks if you can endure and recover on big holds. So don't make the exercises all about fingertip stuff. (2) Spend some time climbing up and down routes in the gym. (3) Outdoor advice: don't be pulling on horizontals when you could be hand-jamming or finger-locking the same features. And if a horizontal tapers to the left say, then you can often get a sideways jam or lock and lean left against it to rest in a spot where otherwise you'd be gripping hard by pulling straight down.

Top
#67398 - 02/12/13 01:47 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: rg@ofmc]
anthonyb Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/21/08
Posts: 38
Loc: Paris, France
Are you using energy saving techniques like:

arching your back to transfer weight to your feet when the overhang is pushing your body out from the rock and you only have feet below the overhang

using your pectoral muscles to reach across your body to grab a higher hold when you've lock off an arm rather than hanging from a bent arm

working your feet up high when you have a good under-cling available

searching for stemming opportunities to get weight off of your arms

getting a high foot and rocking your weight over top of it (most handy after surmounting the overhang)

Do you ever go out to just boulder? Whether indoors or outdoors you will find yourself frequently climbing overhanging rock. This will make you stronger and more confident (which will help prevent overgripping and panic) when you find overhangs on lead.

Top
#67399 - 02/12/13 02:46 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: anthonyb]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
Without knowing anything but what I'm reading here, I suspect your problem may be mental more than anything else. Sounds like you have trouble committing and then flame out. The overhangs you mention as problematic are all very different-- the Drunkard's roof is a straightforward overhanging jug haul but Maria and Tequila Mockingbird are more puzzles involving roof avoidance than true roof pulls. But in all these situations if you are paralyzed you won't make it.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

Top
#67401 - 02/12/13 05:10 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: SethG]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
No Picnic and Tequila Mockingbird are undergraded. The overhang of No Picnic is, I think, a bit harder than the 5.8 climb immediately to its right, Shit or Go Blind. Tequila Mockingbird is very strenuous in nature and at the risk of perpuating the old urban myth of 'Gunks ratings, if that pitch was anywhere else besides the 'Gunks it would be rated a grade or two higher.

I think practice in stress-free situations is key. Climbing is like any other physical skill. It takes a lot of repetition to reach the point of intuitive performance, so if you can toprope a lot of roofs eventually you'll learn to do it. One of the great comp climbers of the 90s said that he won all the World Cups not because he was stronger and more fit than his competitors; he said simply climbed more efficiently. He spent countless hours analyzing his climbing movements, the movements of others, watching videos, etc. He realized that the same climbing "situations" happened over and over again and there was an effective, efficent solution to each one. Because of this approach, he could reach an overhang, quickly recognize what the problem was and plug in the right technique. He once remarked that he would see 5.14 climbers get to a roof and act as if they had never seen one before.
With lots and lots of practice you'll gain strength, you'll gain enough experience so that the proper approach/technique to the roof you're trying will be right there in your mental data bank, and you'll gain confidence, as well. You'll reach an overhang and you'll know what to do, you'll know you have the strength to do it, and you'll have the confidence that you can. Lots and lots of practice in a safe learning environment.


Edited by Dana (02/12/13 05:11 PM)

Top
#67402 - 02/12/13 05:51 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: Dana]
KathyS Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 196
Loc: NY, USA
I feel better about having struggled to lead No Picnic last summer, knowing I'm not the only one who thought it was hard for its grade.

Top
#67403 - 02/12/13 09:37 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: KathyS]
TerrieM Offline
addict

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Gunks in Summer, Southwest in ...
Dana - For me,the No Picnic overhang is quite a bit easier than the Shot or Go Blind one! Tequila. I have only gotten on once, and can't recall.

You ARE a tall girl...and I think as a woman, you are right that your center of balance is going to be different than that of a tall guy.

I wonder if it wouldn't be helpful to have someone who you KNOW is good at analyzing body dynamics and stuff watch you (maybe even from a fixed line) work on some of those roofs to see if they can make some helpful suggestions. They could say 'try this" while you are in the moves(maybe on TR, and not on lead...) so you could compare on the spot.


edit - haha - I got Dan and Dana mixed up there... but my post still worked.





Edited by TerrieM (02/12/13 09:39 PM)

Top
#67404 - 02/12/13 11:14 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: TerrieM]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Oh, and as far as specific techniques: experiment, watch other climbers, ask other climbers, ask for feedback. If you are toproping, you can play around for as long as you'd like and start to learn what works/doesn't work. If you can find someone who is better at these problems than you are, you can both work on the same roof and a little informal coaching can take place. The No Picnic roof would be well suited for this.
Each situation is different, but as a general rule you don't want to start getting contemplative and introspective in the middle of an overhang. The typical 'Gunks roof requires an aggressive, assertive approach.

Top
#67406 - 02/13/13 03:38 AM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: Dana]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Roofs? Easy. Climb at a tall overhanging gym. Get someone better at it to watch. Climb outside at the Gunks! Yes, what Dana and everyone esle has said.

You want the confidence to do it and exact knowlege of how hard you can push yourself while doing it. As in any climbing, mental insecurity can shut you down very quickly. As RG wrote hand strength is important. Really, for fast progress find someone who understands movement and climbing to watch you and advise.

Top
#67408 - 02/14/13 07:09 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: Mark Heyman]
tradjunkie Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 364
I agree with most of the points made above and would add core strength to the list.

If you toprope/follow enough roofs at a similar grade, you'll probably get a good sense of what you are capable of, which will lead to you feeling confident and, importantly, relaxed, when on lead. There are a lot of roofs you can TR even if you are the only leader in your party, especially if you are willing to be lowered down from a top anchor.

Top
#67409 - 02/14/13 11:09 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: tradjunkie]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: tradjunkie
I agree with most of the points made above and would add core strength to the list.


Abs-olutely! As in all things physical, core is paramount. Nothing more frustrating on a big body length roof then to be up in there tight reaching for the lip then to have your core give out and your ass start sagging and heading towards the ground a few moments before the rest of your body.

Top
#67411 - 02/15/13 02:18 AM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: Rickster]
Mark Heyman Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 1123
Loc: South Jersey (Pinelands)
Core strenght yes. Actually because you are tall this will be more of an issue for you than compact people like me. You can do sonme exercises to suplement, but the best way to accomplish this is climbing overhanging stuff. That generally means relativley juggy. For me this is far more easily done in a great gym.

Top rope. Never been a promoter of top roping longer than you need to, You don't learn the attictude or positions you need to have in muscle memory for clipping or placing gear TR. Far to easy to just go for it and get shut down anyway when on lead.

Top
#67427 - 02/20/13 04:06 AM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: Mark Heyman]
crackers Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3424
Loc: pdx
I'm non small. Core strength. Down climbing. HEEL HOOKING. Core strength. Do figure 4 / 9 in the gym. Use your extreme reach rather than suffer from it. Follow / TR. What works for us non small folks is not what works for dinkys. Forget about them, and TR or follow the piss out of something(s) hard until you develop the bizarre kinesthetics required for leading roofs when you're too tall for some of them.

MF is really hard when you're tall, and NEVER go near PT Phone Home.

Good luck!

Top
#67432 - 02/20/13 12:22 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: crackers]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: crackers
.... Core strength. Down climbing. HEEL HOOKING. Core strength. Do figure 4 / 9 in the gym. Use your extreme reach rather than suffer from it. Follow / TR. What works for us non small folks is not what works for dinkys. Forget about them,....Good luck!


Haven't these techniques or skills proven effective for climbers of all sizes?

Top
#67433 - 02/20/13 02:38 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: Rickster]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
It seems to be a rule of climbing that people, whether they are relatively tall or short, will construe their height to be a disadvantage.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

Top
#67434 - 02/20/13 03:56 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: SethG]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
Originally Posted By: SethG
It seems to be a rule of climbing that people, whether they are relatively tall or short, will construe their height to be a disadvantage.


And, see the advantage of the other. Being of average height has always been a challenge for me where as those shorter or taller, have always had it easier. wink

Top
#67445 - 02/21/13 01:51 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: Rickster]
talus Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1259
it's all about a strong core
_________________________
John Okner Photography

Top
#67452 - 02/21/13 09:03 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: talus]
Frank Florence Offline
addict

Registered: 01/05/00
Posts: 528
Loc: moved to Bend
A strong core is critical for transferring force through the legs, especially in initiating moves. But I don't see that as the whole story with getting over roof problems. Extending movement up from the legs through the core has the effect of lifting the torso higher, bring the climber's COG into a potentially more advantageous position with respect to the roof lip and/or holds above the roof. So what we're really talking about is technique.

I'm not a tall person, but let's say I'm climbing like one in so far that my feet are still on holds on the back wall under the roof. As I move up, I'll try to bring my hips in close to the roof. It's easier to then look downward past my legs to see where I need to re-position my feet. It also seems easier to pull my torso up and in and hold a lock-off on one arm while reaching out around the roof with the other. The post by AnthonyB also brought this up and included some other good ideas.

Top
#67474 - 02/24/13 07:45 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: Frank Florence]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
I think roof climbing techniques are ignored by a lot of trad climbers. Sport climbing and bouldering tends to be more steep and you learn pretty quick how to conserve energy and create rests on roofs with body position.

Ie i found M.Times and Son of E O to be piss easy yet more techy stuff like Snookys and Birdland gave me a harder time.

practice.. road trip to Rumney or RRG to develop skills to lead on roofs with clean falls.

Top
#67612 - 03/05/13 04:12 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: jakedatc]
fotovult Offline
member

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 136
Loc: ny
Tallgirl - I went through the same stage, and have learned to love overhangs/roofs.

You had mentioned leading, but didn't specify if your troubles were rooted in physical or mental struggles.

Mental is pretty easy to overcome - falls are clean and in the gunks I find most often the moves have a rest beforehand. Even routes with sustained climbing before overhangs (Welcome to the Gunks, Nurses Aid, coex, the Sting) you can still cop a rest before the business.

Physical is a different game, finessing hard roofs is a bit tougher than finessing hard face/slab/crack. Strength goes a long way, as does good footwork in setting up to crank over the lips.

Best advice as others have said is to get on as many overhung climbs as you can - if you can aid or have a stronger leader I'd go for the lead if the falls are good. If not TR the hell out of them.
_________________________
www.chrisvultaggio.com

Top
#67614 - 03/05/13 08:47 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: fotovult]
oenophore Online   confused
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5962
Loc: 212 land
Mental is pretty easy to overcome

For you perhaps. Do you maintain that the same is true for Tallgirlnyc?
_________________________

Top
#67615 - 03/05/13 10:32 PM Re: Help in Climbing/Leading Roofs [Re: oenophore]
fotovult Offline
member

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 136
Loc: ny
Sure - go out, plug a bomber cam and peel off a roof into space. When the gear holds her repeated falls it will help her mental game. If the gear rips - well if her gear isn't atomic she should be asking advice on how to place good gear and not conquer roofs.

Once she whips a bunch of times and realizes there is no consequence she can focus on her climbing and not her falling.

OK maybe that's a bit too general - but I do feel that getting stronger mentally comes easier than getting stronger physically.
_________________________
www.chrisvultaggio.com

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  webmaster 
Sponsored