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#62924 - 03/06/12 01:54 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: ianmanger]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
SPAM!!!

Originally Posted By: ianmanger
Wait, you're the chain fairy?

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Look, if you really want an anchor there so much so that you want to put a bolt, why don't you save yourself some trouble and time and run a stainless or galvanized steel cable off another tree or rock back in the woods. Yea, and take a rubber hose on it too. You can inspect a cable but anyone can crazy glue a bolt to the wall. In other words, there is no disadvantage to using a cable. All you need to know is how long to make the cable, cut it, and put the hose and six clamps on it, and don't saddle a dead horse. It should take you no longer than 5 minutes to install it, less time than it took me to write this post. Hopefully no one will trip over it and fall off the cliff, if they do it is your fault.


Your right how did you guess? I did it to scare people with frightening lifelike plastic insects. Later on I was blamed and became the Chain Fairy.




Edited by donald perry (03/06/12 02:11 PM)
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#62927 - 03/06/12 02:20 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: talus]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
However then again, why are there bolts all along the top of the Trapps now? I suppose that at some point if Millbrook becomes a congested trap the only sensible solution is to have bolted rap anchors in a couple of places. It won't make any difference at that point, ending erosion will be an enormous concern. There are already bolted rap stations at the Gunks, and from there no one has used that excuse to put more bolts, right? But if rap stations was the only answer for the Trapps, and if the argument for bolts there cannot be answered otherwise there, then how can we complain if there is a another rap station at the Gunks to prevent more trees from damage?

I think the best solution is for now, now that it is not that busy over there yet, that if you want to pull through, bring a 30' rope along. However is there going to be anchors there in the future?, if so then does it make any difference if there is bolts there now or 10 or 20 years from now? Are the numbers increasing?

But if you have to drill I think it would be better if the holes were unconventional, not bolts. Like the steel ring over CC Route. That way we could at least go on to say that Millbrook has no bolts and never will or something to that effect. Another option is to drill a hole for nuts.

You could use hole anchors, but that expensive thing could get stolen. But isn't there any other place to temporarily leave nuts there? so what if it gets stolen once in a while. If that is the case why do we need to drill bolts in the first place? Or what about pitons, no one ever stole those and reused them again? … except one person that I know of. And, there are pitons here already. So perhaps steel or stainless steel angles and a bong is the best solution. Does anyone have a picture of a where would be the best place to pound in some metal?
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62928 - 03/06/12 03:25 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: donald perry]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2676
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Thanks Donald. I am always tempted to try to get onto the ledge from that end but always seem to have too little time to look for the way.

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#62930 - 03/06/12 03:41 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: chip]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
Don, I can never tell if you are being fully serious. Are you really the source of all those little plastic guys on the Preserve's rap stations? Or are you just fooling with everyone? My mind is blown.

And the cable anchors? I find it hard to believe Don is trooping up to put a cable anchor atop No Picnic or Betty. I just figure he has bigger fish to fry.
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#62931 - 03/06/12 04:18 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: SethG]
Doug Online   content
member

Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 176
Originally Posted By: SethG
Don, I can never tell if you are being fully serious. Are you really the source of all those little plastic guys on the Preserve's rap stations? Or are you just fooling with everyone? My mind is blown.


The person who goes by insuto on Mountain Project seems to be the source of them. He apparently meant to make it a game for kids to find them, according to his only post. Don't know if that is an alias for DJP, but I kind of doubt it.

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#62941 - 03/06/12 11:05 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: Doug]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
SPAM!!!

I wrote: "...I did it to scare people with frightening lifelike plastic insects. Later on I was blamed and became the Chain Fairy."

No, I was the first one to do that that I know of. I only did it on about 10 climbs all at the same time, they were around 5.9-5.11. It seemed like a good idea at the time, some new challenges for the Gunks, who could get the gear in and who would bail. But they were plastic spiders and bugs with big eyes that I put in places where you would see them while you were trying to place gear on tough moves. "Later on" ... I meant it to be understood very close to the present tense of later on. So close that perhaps I should have said "Now". Just call me the Chain Fairy if you wish, I don't care.

Previously I never meant to admit it to anyone. Obviously some people would not find it funny.




Edited by donald perry (03/06/12 11:21 PM)
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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#62942 - 03/07/12 12:18 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: rg@ofmc]
schwortz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 308
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
I for one am just as opposed to cables as to bolts. Frankly, there is absolutely no reason at Millbrook to leave anything at the top, and going forward I would hope that there would be no traces of any top anchors anywhere. There is no reason why climbers can't clean up after themselves, and this has been the case at Millbrook, with the almost unique exception of the Westward Ha rap tree. The "sunfaded tat around a dead tree" is part of a false dichotomy that has bolts as its only alternative.

The fact is, the more crap people leave, the more incessant the calls for bolts become, whereas the real solution is to have nothing permanent or semi-permanent at all.

It is way too late for the main Gunks areas and even some of the undocumented ones, but Millbrook is unique in that climbers return to the top and so can easily, at the end of the day, remove their anchors and/or their slings. This has been the case for many years already and it works perfectly.

Sport climbing, the child that wants to eat its mother, continually threatens the natural basis of trad climbing. First come the tat-encrusted convenience anchors, then the bolts that suddenly become necessary because of the convenience anchors that were never necessary, then suddenly every little runout needs to be bolted too, and soon there is little trad climbing left, which suits some, but not all, of the population just fine.

Millbrook is now among the few remaining trad areas in the country, with hardly any fixed gear anywhere. Perhaps only in the UK are comparable opportunities available. Millbrook climbing isn't for everyone, but the Gunks are full of opportunities for those who don't want the experiences of a fixed gear free crag, whereas those who aspire to this type of climbing have fewer and fewer places to go, worldwide.

Making Millbrook more like every other cliff adds little to the stock of everyday cragging while destroying a resource that becomes more and more special as the rest of the world heads inexorably towards the sportification of all climbing.

As Cerro Torre has shown, there is a vibrant younger generation of climbers who don't think more bolts make for better climbing. I'm an old fart, but this is not an old fart issue---it is a question of homogenizing all climbing and thereby cutting off an entire younger generation from the type of climbing it has every right to aspire to.

Climbers have managed to keep Millbrook pristine for nearly 80 years. Lets not be the generation that blows it.

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#62956 - 03/08/12 01:24 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: schwortz]
whatthegunks Offline
member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 135
Loc: High Falls, NY
The Trapps and Near Trapps have plenty of fixed anchors, short approaches and follow the chalk dab lines. If this is the sort of experience you are looking for do not go to Millbrook. If you decide to go then have your act together, do some climbing and leave the place the way you found it. If you feel like you need fixed gear then stop right there; Millbrook ain't for you.

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#62965 - 03/09/12 04:14 AM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: whatthegunks]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3764
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I believe you should have said...Millbrook isn't for you. We may be social degenerates, but at least let's have good grammar!

That is the great thing about the Gunks. People can toprope and have a certain experience, people can have routes laid out very clearly with fixed anchors if that is what they are looking for, or people can get off the beaten path with any number of undocumented cliff and experience what first ascents are like. The only experience not available is sport climbing, and even that is debatable.

Personally, I had a blast last summer and fall exploring routes that are not documented, and I got my ass kicked more times than ever...man is that fun!

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#62970 - 03/09/12 04:14 PM Re: Millbrook Rap tree [Re: talus]
donald perry Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 1530
Loc: New Jersey
I have a question. I want to do Scary Area. There are two bolts off the ground. One is new and one is old. Mark Robinson put in the new one and Kligfield put in the old one.

My question is, what is with this old bolt? How deep does it go into the rock? How long a fall could it take when it is new? And if it cannot take falls [plural] or the original fall today can it be replaced with a new bolt of the same make at a time where it starts to come loose or has reached its expiration date? Or can it be replaced with a stainless steel bolt?

I can imagine the first response might be "Just leave it alone don, haven't you done enough damage there already?"

If we can forget about me for the time being, I just want to know the answer to this question.

I would assume that the old bolt should have been removed and a better bolt put in its place. However, then again, we would lose the chance to fall on the original bolt. But how many times can people fall on a bolt like that? I know people do not fall on that bolt anyway. [But they do lower off it.] At least that is my suspicion. I never fell on it.

Another question I have is when the old bolt popes out, how do you replace it with the same kind of bolt, won't the hole be damaged?

I have no intentions of hanging around on it or falling on it or pulling it out. However when it pulls from someone else the climb will be 5" more dangerous because the now new bolt is over to the left. So when it pulls out a new bolt should be put back. But what kind of bolt do you put there? Something as close to the original is possible, only stainless steel?

I suppose Mark Robinson and John Brag supposed that climbing ethics would become better as time went on. And that trends would follow their logical path of high standards, that in the future there would not be any people who might stress out bolts like that and that would appreciate it's preservation. But what they foresaw never came to be. Today people hang their way up climbs and then pull the rope through and maybe or maybe not hang some more until there is not more hanging around. I was told that this is aid climbing. I try not to hang on climbs, I think it is unnecessary. I try and lower down after spending myself placing gear. I never make it my goal to flash anything. I don't want of fall on suspicious gear. I have been top-roping, but I am starting to get back to leading again. If I do hang on something it is because am I getting ready to realize I cannot do it at all and take it all apart.

So, I will be lowering off that bolt.

I post this here because it has to do with bolt thinking within these other ideas and may shed some new light on the topic of bolts.
_________________________
The Mohonk Mountain House and the Mohonk Preserve have done a great job protecting the environment thus far, but ... it's all down hill from here http://youtu.be/9AU8fMo8v4k.

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