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#68284 - 06/12/13 02:32 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: rg@ofmc]
cfrac Offline
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Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc

Encouraging parties to rap off one of the classic three-pitch routes, with every pitch good for those climbing at the grade, is plain wrong-headed.


I agree Pitch 1 & 3 are high quality but p2 doesn't feel special to me. I have to admit that I have done just p1 after work mid-week and liked that I could rappel instead of down-solo or climb to the GT.

Just trying to keep the debate alive grin

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#68285 - 06/12/13 10:01 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: retroscree]
cfrac Offline
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Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: retroscree

No. It's called removing trash. A rap anchor there is stupid.

Is this really a forgone conclusion?

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#68287 - 06/12/13 12:42 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: cfrac]
whatthegunks Offline
member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 135
Loc: High Falls, NY
Originally Posted By: cfrac
Originally Posted By: retroscree

No. It's called removing trash. A rap anchor there is stupid.

Is this really a forgone conclusion?


I'm thinking not so much.

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#68288 - 06/12/13 01:53 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Rickster]
whatthegunks Offline
member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 135
Loc: High Falls, NY
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: whatthegunks
...somebody went through the trouble of dismantling a fairly safe anchor and pocketted the gear....


Maybe the fact that it was only a "fairly safe anchor" had something to do with the gear being removed? confused


Good point, goes to show how lame indefinite language is, if I were speaking to you I'd have ended "fairly safe anchor" with an upward inflection as if it were a question. So, let me re-phrase; a fully bombproof anchor combining the three pins and a well placed .5 tri-cam, equalized and redundant with a pair of aluminum rings in the master point. Of course a pair of 1/2 inch glue-ins would be fairly safer (?).

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#68290 - 06/12/13 06:48 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: cfrac]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Originally Posted By: cfrac
I have to admit that I have done just p1 after work mid-week and liked that I could rappel instead of down-solo or climb to the GT.


Then it would be even better if a rappel line was left on the anchor so you wouldn't have to drag that up with you.

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#68292 - 06/13/13 12:58 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: rg@ofmc]
cfrac Offline
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Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
Originally Posted By: cfrac
I have to admit that I have done just p1 after work mid-week and liked that I could rappel instead of down-solo or climb to the GT.


Then it would be even better if a rappel line was left on the anchor so you wouldn't have to drag that up with you.


I don't understand your point Rich. Are you implying that I had to drag up a rappel rope to rappel? I use my lead rope to rappel.

My guess is that the point you are making is that I am using the anchor for convenience and that anchors should not be placed for the ease of descent but only as a necessity. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is that your point? I am trying to see things from your perspective.

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#68293 - 06/13/13 01:10 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: cfrac]
Dana Offline
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Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Hi Chris,

My guess is that Rich is saying that if convenience is the guiding principle for how we decorate the Trapps, then fixed anchors would logically lead to fixed rappel ropes, which would lead to etc., etc.

Dana

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#68295 - 06/13/13 02:27 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Dana]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
huh. I really like p2 of 6ish, especially when I link it to p1. I feel like I'm alone up there on the face, and there's a few nice crack moves and pretty rock. if I manage not to kill myself with rope drag, life is good!
I've never actually used that anchor myself, always seems easy enough to link then rap over by frogs head.

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#68296 - 06/13/13 02:35 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Dana]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2467
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Yes Chris, Dana got it, I was making a slippery slope type joke. But also, when you mentioned down-soloing, I assumed you had already up-soloed.

I didn't think you seriously meant to suggest that we ought to install anchors so that folks could come after work and do only one pitch. Having something there so a local or two can amuse themselves after work is really asking for a hell of an entitlement.

Although Joe said earlier that I haven't changed my position and that I was living in some fantasy world related to how things used to be, he's wrong on both counts. I accept and believe in the need to have rappel routes, and haven't proposed walking back as any kind of general solution for years.

But I still don't believe that we ought to tolerate convenience anchors put anywhere. The chaotic proliferation of such anchors is what started the Preserve on its bolting projects, which have certainly failed to stem the tide.

A host of convenience anchors is ugly, potentially dangerous when they route descending parties down ascent routes, and inevitably clogs multipitch routes with people doing and then top-roping just the first pitch. That's bad resource management and it degrades the Gunks climbing experience.

The intelligent approach, which the Preserve learned after its initial mistakes, is to have descent routes which, as much as possible, do not interfere with ascent routes, at least not popular ones. Routing parties straight down Sixish violates every principle of good sense mentioned above, and then includes the additional unpleasantness associated with a very small stance. It is almost a textbook case of what not to do, unless your goal is to bring Chrimson Chrysalis back East.

On another issue, the idea that Joe's anchor was "stolen" is a modern concept that I think should at least be argued. From the advent of chromemolly pitons, it was the norm that people could add anchors, and people could remove anchors. That's the way it was all over the U.S. The breaking of this symmetry is really quite recent. Now we hear that people can add anchors but then they "own" them and removing them is stealing. In other words, those who want to add anchors have some sort of god-given right to do so, and once those anchors are there, no matter how stupidly located or unnecessary they might be, they are sacrosanct. This is, of course, a recipe for wrapping the cliffs in nylon, at which point they will be an absolutely ideal venue for those after-work jaunts.

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#68297 - 06/13/13 03:30 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: rg@ofmc]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
I'm with Julie, by the way. I think the second pitch of Sixish is absolutely charming.

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