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#69234 - 11/11/13 03:55 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Lucander]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Lucander
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/old-anc...rades/108404216

Indian Creek seems to have a pretty efficient way of updating and maintaining anchors.

Different area. Different history. Different ethics.
For starters, a lot of IC routes don't have any alternate descent options.
Invalid comparison.

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#69235 - 11/11/13 04:14 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: retroscree]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 709
Loc: NYC
Also in Indian Creek no one has sore elbows, so the comparison is just silly.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#69236 - 11/11/13 05:01 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: retroscree]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Couple of meandering points.
Seems obvious that the more we establish semi-permanent anchors on lines, the more they will be used for both anchoring and rappelling the same way. This can't be a good thing, esp if most of the anchors at the top of the cliff use trees.

Biggest issue I see is that folks often just to want to knock out a bunch of de facto single pitch lines without both climbers (or their party of seven) leaving the ground. We have a bounty of great 'one pitch wonders' which fit this, and those lines which aren't bolted inevitably start to acquire nests of tat at the top of P1. We can't force people to top out mad even if the upper pitches are stellar. These intermediate nests immediately lead to the slinging of trees at the top per Tequila Mockingbird.

There are also a minority of climbs that might have topped out historically but now aren't generally climbed all the way up. (I was just on Last Frontier, for example)If they were ever cleaned is unclear as lichen is starting to come back. I would support requesting the Preserve to fix some of these.. maybe a list would help.

Rich, I think we have to address that this is just how stuff gets climbed these days. I'm all for directing rap lines appropriately and maybe asking the Preserve to consider adding more lines from the top, but I didn't get any takers as to whether this was indeed necessary or where these might be. Perhaps the top of Silly Chimney. I would guess that few climbers are going to down climb that these days. Lets be realistic about managing changing climber habits. There is a huge and good looking tree slung there and we shouldn't kill that.

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#69237 - 11/11/13 05:51 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: ianmanger]
Rickster Online   content
old hand

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 845
Loc: Orange Cty, NY
All those paradigm shifts.
From.. pins to all nut ascents.
From..walking off to rapping down.
From.. leave nothing behind, to all the fooking tat.

Just to name a few.

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#69238 - 11/11/13 06:11 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Rickster]
ianmanger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 319
Yes. Not all change is good. We are struggling with how to manage the massive uptick in climber numbers and habits. I'm all for chopping tat, clearing these anchors and banning chalk, but feel like I'm in the minority.


Maybe if we want to do this properly, maybe we should ask the Preserve to annually restate its policy ( say as a flyer that you get when you renew) that all non-bolted anchors should be regarded as litter and may be removed at any time, and that therefore you shouldn't depend upon them, so that efforts to remove then could be legitimized. I don't see other easy ways to impact the whole climber community.

Would also be helpful if they could publish an annual list of currently bolted anchors and descent lines and solicit climber comments on proposed changes.

That would be nice....

Originally Posted By: Rickster
All those paradigm shifts.
From.. pins to all nut ascents.
From..walking off to rapping down.
From.. leave nothing behind, to all the fooking tat.

Just to name a few.


Edited by ianmanger (11/11/13 06:28 PM)

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#69244 - 11/12/13 12:30 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: retroscree]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 224
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
[/quote]
Different area. Different history. Different ethics.
For starters, a lot of IC routes don't have any alternate descent options.
Invalid comparison. [/quote]

Well...like the Gunks, many of these climbs are not done beyond half of a rope length. Alternative anchors other than bolts can be found (snipped cams, pitons, nuts, or for here, trees). Gang toproping. Legacy of staunchly traditional ground-up style. Visionary first ascents. Myopic modern climbers who rarely, if ever, go more than 100' off the ground. Even various forms of sandstone (okay, that's a stretch). All we need is some Mormons and an "era of good feelings."

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#69245 - 11/12/13 12:32 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Lucander]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 224
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
The "anchor" on the tiny tree below the Drunkard's Delight roof is gone. Scary to think that people rapped off that - it had three different pieces of webbing and a fat link.

Looking to the right: there's some weird tat and a biner on the Bloody Mary tree. You know the one, under the roof.

Let philosophical discussions about the merits of these anchors and debates filled with conjecture ensue...

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#69253 - 11/12/13 07:24 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Lucander]
GOclimb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 2359
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: Lucander
Quote:

Different area. Different history. Different ethics.
For starters, a lot of IC routes don't have any alternate descent options.
Invalid comparison.


Well...like the Gunks, many of these climbs are not done beyond half of a rope length. Alternative anchors other than bolts can be found (snipped cams, pitons, nuts, or for here, trees). Gang toproping. Legacy of staunchly traditional ground-up style. Visionary first ascents. Myopic modern climbers who rarely, if ever, go more than 100' off the ground. Even various forms of sandstone (okay, that's a stretch). All we need is some Mormons and an "era of good feelings."


I really hope you're just being silly on purpose, and don't truly think this is anything like a fair comparison.

GO

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#69286 - 11/18/13 01:12 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: GOclimb]
cfrac Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462

Last weekend a friend and I hiked the top of the Trapps starting at Easy Keyhole and ending at High E. We liked the idea of marking the main rap stations with cairns, so we thought we would inspect the anchors and build cairns. The landscape and what we learned on the hike kept us from building the cairns.

We learned several things on this hike, but the main points were these:
Generally speaking, if a climb tops out where the hillside is pitched there will either be an erosion gully or the beginnings of an erosion gully.
The trees in the erosion gully top-outs are either dying or already dead.
Anywhere the cliff is flat or angled back at a top-out (mostly from the Arrow wall to High E) erosion is almost non-existent and the trees are in good shape.

We took pictures of every top anchor, but here are two examples that show the extremes:





I realize that many of us have different ideas of how to solve this problem, but I think we all agree there is a problem and it needs to be addressed. Dick Williams and volunteers have done a tremendous amount of work at the base of the cliff, but nothing is being done about the cliff top ecosystem.

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#69287 - 11/18/13 01:33 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: cfrac]
cfrac Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Here is the Middle Earth rap station, which is North of the previous two photos:

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