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#57506 - 05/17/11 03:42 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Julie]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
It would be nice if the Preserve would sign those cards rather than starting a stare down or worse between climbing factions.

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#57508 - 05/17/11 07:03 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Julie]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I agree with Julie and Seth; the cable guys have put in some effort (and invested their own money) and surely mean well.

I think the Preserve had a laminated card on the Jackie tree for a while.

The user base is now very large, diverse, and dispersed. It is not clear how to even begin promoting consensus. In the absence of consensus, we could just end up with "anchor wars." And this applies not only to slings and cables on trees, but also to the deterioration of fixed anchors and the decision about whether or not to replace them.

I doubt much can be done unless the Preserve decides to embrace a more active management role, something they have been loath to do for reasons both philosophical and legal.

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#57515 - 05/17/11 11:24 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: chip]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
Originally Posted By: chip
It would be nice if the Preserve would sign those cards rather than starting a stare down or worse between climbing factions.


I certainly did not want to start that when I began this thread - I'm only 5'5" and have skinny legs.

That said, thread drift has not plagued us too much yet. Keep posting conditions, modifications, and reinforcements.

D. Lucander

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#57517 - 05/18/11 12:41 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: rg@ofmc]
schwortz Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 308
short of the preserve stepping in or local guides coming to a consensus and enforcing it through their actions and teachings rg is right that its difficult to reach consensus on where anchors should be. but that doesn't mean it should be a free-for-all.

well intentioned or not, the installation of new fixed cables is not the way forward. especially with the existence of a large number of bolt anchors, full height rappel routes, and the tried and true method of walking off. especially given that they are being placed on routes so close the uberfall area descent routes and walk-offs. especially in such close proximity to existing bolted stations.

signs arent needed for each climb. if there is no anchor at the tree directly over your climb then walk to the next set of anchors and/or walk off. end of story. put that on the pass. put it on the bulletin board. put it on the website. but lead by example. tell people. teach them. and chop stupid anchors.

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#57519 - 05/18/11 01:16 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: schwortz]
SethG Online   content
addict

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 680
Loc: NYC
Maybe if we posted a note on the bulletin board, something like:

"Dear steel cable installer:

Please check out this thread on Gunks.com:

http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/57517/1

There is an ongoing discussion about the appropriate places for rappel anchors, and it would be great if you participated.

Sincerely,

Some Gunks People"
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#57520 - 05/18/11 01:26 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: SethG]
chip Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 2674
Loc: Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
Perhaps these cables are being installed as permanent anchors by guides? I would be surprised that anyone else would put so much effort and some money into this project. Might be worth asking if anyone bumps into them.

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#57521 - 05/18/11 02:23 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: chip]
Jeff D. Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 75
Loc: NY, NJ
In my opinion, the source of this problem is that we have a 400 page guidebook that provides a plethora of routes up the wall, but no source for determining the best way to descend the cliff. I will admit that I have apprehension about descents, especially when I have less experienced climbers in tow. I do not enjoy walking the cliff edge unroped searching for other anchors which may or may not be more convenient descents, with no real easy way to determine that from the top. I know that the easy answer is to walk off and that it is certainly the answer for certain areas, but its not always the best choice.

It takes a much better undersatnding of the cliff to descend conveniently than it does to ascend. As my list of routes grows I keep finding better ways to descend the cliffs. Through this process of learning the cliff top I have undoubtedly descended via the stupid/inefficient ways plenty of times.

It seems that the mountainproject pages include alot more information on descents than has in the past. Interestingly enough, there is a mention that its best to avoid the baby tree for the bolts over City Lights.

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#57522 - 05/18/11 03:07 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Jeff D.]
Welle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 213
Loc: Western Slope
Originally Posted By: Jeff D.
In my opinion, the source of this problem is that we have a 400 page guidebook that provides a plethora of routes up the wall, but no source for determining the best way to descend the cliff.


Grey Dick has all rappel stations clearly marked.

Originally Posted By: Jeff D.
Through this process of learning the cliff top I have undoubtedly descended via the stupid/inefficient ways plenty of times.


Isn't that an essential part of climbing? When I go to a new crag or big mountain, I undoubtedly expect to be figuring out ways to descend and getting lost/off-route a bit...

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#57526 - 05/18/11 03:45 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Jeff D.]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2454
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Right on Welle! In my opinion the source of the problem has nothing to do with the guidebook and everything to do with the incessant modern demand for more convenience and efficiency.

Anyone can put a sling or a cable on a tree. Some of them are unsafe anchors. Others send the rappeller over areas of loose rock that shower stuff on people below. Many send the rappeller down on top of people climbing up. The guidebook shows the bolted rappel routes. You could hardly expect it to record the ever-shifting collection of anchors that appear, deteriorate, disappear, and are replaced.

Of course, the ability to find descents increases with experience. What is so terrible about the idea that experience is something that is acquired over time by actually indulging in the "not enjoyable" process of exploring? Isn't dealing with the (very slightly) unknown a part of trad climbing? Or does trad climbing begin when you step off the ground and end when you top out?

Finally, what is so terrible about walking back if the party is apprehensive about where to rap? So what if it "isn't best." Exactly how bad is it, considering that all parties walked back from all climbs (either to the Uberfall or Roger's Escape Hatch) for 40 years or so?

As an aside, isn't it a really good idea to know how to walk back just in case things go wrong in some way? (Some folks called out a rescue a while back because they were "stuck" on top at dark!) Walking back is arguably the first thing new parties should do just so they know how to do it in an "emergency."

On another subject, if the guides are placing the cables (and I want to emphasize that I have no idea whether or not they are), it would be another in a long list of examples of commercial interests shaping the nature of the climbing environment for their own purposes. First they create new impacts (which are proportional to the fees they collect), and then they "solve" the problems they created by adding bolts, cables(?), fixed pitons, and other things that eat away at the natural state of the crag.


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#57527 - 05/18/11 06:17 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: rg@ofmc]
jakedatc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/18/06
Posts: 241
I agree with Rich... finding your way down at the gunks is not all that hard. It is a generally flat cliff so you can just look sideways and pretty easily pick out a line of trees/ledges that will get you down. I can't imagine there are spots where you can't rap down a few route left or right of whereever you are. Sure finding the "Best" way down takes some learning but same could be said for taking certain trails to different crags at other places.

As far as walking along the top.. if you are nervous then stay on belay.. walk with a line of trees between you and the edge and if it is sketchy then sling one if you need to.


on topic-ish there was a cord around the Nice Crack Climb tree without a biner, ring, or maillion on it.. what's the point other than to have a TR anchor? the walk off is like 15 feet.

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