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#69312 - 11/20/13 05:34 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: cfrac]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Interesting work Chris! I think a presentation ought to be made to the Preserve. They have taken the position that, with the general demise of walking back to the Uberfall, the cliff top ecology has benefited, but the erosion around rap trees on sloping ground suggests this is not entirely true.

If climbers are going to be encouraged to walk to the Preserve bolted rappels, then the Preserve would have to reconcile itself to more foot traffic along the top.

I might add that my suggestion about cairns was to mark the bolted rappel routes, some of which can be found only if you really know where to go, since in a number of cases the bolts are neither visible from nor exactly at the top.

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#69313 - 11/20/13 10:42 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: rg@ofmc]
cfrac Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
I should have said the bolted anchors, not the "major" anchors. These are the bolted stations in the Trapps that start at the top. They are not evenly distributed.

1. Frog's Head easy to walk to, we did build a cairn
2. Arch The approach is on a steep hill and there was no reasonable place for a cairn
3. Three Pines no good place for a cairn
4. LeTeton again, no good place for a cairn

Then there is a big gap until the Arrow Wall

5. Arrow & Limelight no cairn needed
6. Strolling on Jupiter no cairn needed
7. High Exposure no cairn needed

The biggest erosion and tree damage has occurred between Belly Roll and Baby. There are sporadic erosion problems walking North, primarily Shockley's and Middle Earth descents, but the problems end at the Arrow wall. This of course does not address many of the GT ledge tree rappels and various other mid-climb tree anchors.

I like the suggestion, so I think I will print out the photos and present them to the Preserve.

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#69318 - 11/21/13 01:35 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: cfrac]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
I think you mean City Lights/Pas de Deux bolts are easy to walk to. The Frogs Head bolts are well below the top of the cliff and I wouldn't suggest folks try to scramble down to them.

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#69321 - 11/21/13 03:52 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 227
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
That's how I get off from Drunkard's, Bloody Morning whatever the hell it's called, Size Matters, and if it's really busy, Rock & Brew.

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#69322 - 11/21/13 01:30 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Mike Rawdon]
cfrac Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
I think you mean City Lights/Pas de Deux bolts are easy to walk to.
Yes, that's what I meant.

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#69323 - 11/21/13 02:41 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: cfrac]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2472
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I'm not sure about your cairn claims. I guess I'll have go up and have a look myself.

One I'm sure I disagree about is that the Strolling on Jupiter bolts most definitely needs a cairn; there's no way that station will ever be found by anyone who doesn't know where to climb down from the top, and this is perhaps one of the reasons why the highly unfortunate rap was added at the top of CCK direct.

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#69326 - 11/21/13 03:55 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: rg@ofmc]
SethG Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 713
Loc: NYC
I really like using the Arch bolts but you have to know where to scramble down because you can't see the chains until you go down a little bit. I would have thought a cairn there would help people.
_________________________
It's true, I have a blog. http://climbandpunishment.blogspot.com/

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#69328 - 11/21/13 10:41 PM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: SethG]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
Realistically, if a climber is new to the Trapps, NONE of the bolted descents is that easy to find. That is, one could walk right by them on the trail.

So what's your pleasure: cairns? Or a series of signs? Or GPS coordinates? Or...

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#69329 - 11/22/13 12:20 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Mike Rawdon]
retroscree Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 397
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
So what's your pleasure: cairns? Or a series of signs? Or GPS coordinates? Or...

...trained guide squirrels?

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#69330 - 11/22/13 12:43 AM Re: Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates [Re: Mike Rawdon]
cfrac Offline
addict

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 462
Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
...one could walk right by them on the trail.


So this illustrates the problem with the cairns and GPS, maybe not signs. The trail along the top of the Trapps from Sixish North until the Arrow wall is quite far back from the cliff edge. It's maybe 500 feet back and in most places is fairly steep and there are many interspersed smaller sub cliff bands and or thick vegetation.

So this creates many problems with cairn idea. The main problem is that I don't think any climbers walk all the way up to the Trapps cliff top trail(between Sixish & Arrow). There are smaller trails that connect the tops of climbs with the nearest cliff top anchors and from visible use you can see where most people travel and it is the line of least resistance. I encourage everyone to go up there and see for yourself.

But, lets say I am wrong or that you could change climber behavior so that climbers in the area N of Sixish, S of Arrow would walk to the cliff top trail, locate a cairn, then walk down through the woods. This would lead to acceleration of the erosion that has already started to break into the soil for the Arch & Three Pines rappels. I will post pictures of this soon.
The second problem is that you can't really build cairns anywhere else because the hillside is so steep that you would be piling up rocks on a steep slope above a rap anchor.

On a side note the cliff top trail had been painted with blue rectangles very similar to the markings found on the Millbrook Ridge Trail, but they have been painted over with grey paint. Also, someone has already attempted to mark the bolted rappels by painting three equidistant black circles on rock near the descents.

So I see three different areas that have different issues:

Region 1 Belly Roll to Frog's Head, there is a spiders web of cliff top trails. Lots of tree anchors with tree bark suffering, exposed roots, lots of erosion, three instances of the formation of gullies.

Region 2 Frog's Head North to Arrow, Erosion is minimal with the exceptions of soil starting to be exposed at Arch and Three Pines. Shockley's/Strictly erosion is really bad and the Middle Earth rappel has killed two large pine trees and is heavily eroded. Most trails in this region are sub trails used by climbers to walk from the top of their climb to an adjacent rappel anchor.

Region 3 Arrow North to High E, there are basically no erosion problems. You could build cairns here and this would probably help some people in locating them.

Of course all of my observations are subjective, so if you want to see for yourself it's a short and pleasant hike that is worth doing now that the chiggers are done for the season and the leaves are down. Although I have done this cliff top hike many times before I had never done it with the idea of anchor management and cliff top preservation in mind... it certainly opened my eyes!





Edited by cfrac (11/22/13 12:45 AM)

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