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#69197 - 11/04/13 08:11 PM is ruby saturday direct really G?
doublediamond100 Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/16/12
Posts: 2
Is there really a way to protect the first pitch so it's G? I wound up backing off of it a few weeks back because I couldn't figure out a way to protect the crux moves. When a friend led it a couple weeks later he was well into groundfall territory by the time he got anything solid in.

Luckily it seems easier than 10a, I thought the balancy moves down low were much harder than the flake moves higher up. Am I missing something here?

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#69199 - 11/06/13 04:35 AM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: doublediamond100]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
When I first led this I was barely getting into the grade. Vivid memories of a .4 cam at my feet launching into the tough climbing and a mess of tiny (useless?) c3s off to the sides. I'd go pg, as in "a fall there would be a pretty good one"

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#69201 - 11/06/13 11:48 AM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: Lucander]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Probably PG?
I've done it twice. I had a blue Metolius TCU at my feet while doing the crux. It seemed to be well placed. As I recall, it was 1-2 moves to a good hold and a relatively comfortable stance. No risk of groundfall.


Edited by Dana (11/06/13 11:50 AM)

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#69202 - 11/06/13 02:40 PM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: Dana]
Mike Rawdon Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/29/99
Posts: 4276
Loc: Poughkeepsie
I hear ya. I backed off on my onsight attempt when I couldn't see any gear through/beyond the crux. (I lowered off a solid green Alien, almost certainly in the spot where Dana placed the blue TCU) Turns out there is a good cam up there post-crux, but I didn't know it. Lucander's right about the start - it's a hodge podge of small pieces that collectively should be adequate, but it certainly doesn't feel G rated. I carry doubles of the smallest things, and without them I would have been even more unhappy with the situation. So I vote PG.

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#69203 - 11/06/13 04:05 PM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
Bill2 Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 3
My only hesitation on P1 was at the crux moves. The crux for me was getting from standing on the ledge to getting the jug hold up and left at the bottom of the left facing corner.
I used the small flake with the small pocket up and right to pull up on.

I felt pretty good about the nut, #6 or #7, I had in that pocket. Took a bit of up and down and fiddling to get it seated solidly. Didn't want to use a small cam since it would block, at least partially, the pocket for my fingers and although the flake is solid I would prefer a nut over a cam behind a flake.

Don't recall any drama getting up to the stance on the ledge from the ground. I had a good cam in it at my feet but didn't feel I was in a ground fall situation as a stepped up to fiddle in the nut.

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#69205 - 11/06/13 08:03 PM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: Mike Rawdon]
doublediamond100 Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/16/12
Posts: 2
Ah, sounds like a major part of my problem is only having cams down to blue metolius. I saw the Williams guide mentions a black alien for P2 but doesn't say anything about P1. Looks like I should give this route another shot, the moves seem really fun and it always seems to be open. I'm just breaking into the grade though, maybe I'll save this one for when I'm a little more comfortable on 10s.

Thanks for your replies everyone! Sometimes it's hard keep perspective on how much protection is adequate when starting a new grade.


Edited by doublediamond100 (11/06/13 08:06 PM)

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#69206 - 11/06/13 10:52 PM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: doublediamond100]
Lucander Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Stone Ridge, NY
Similarly, I have no idea what to do with a Black Alien on p. 2 of that climb. Maybe backup the pin at the end of the tough climbing?

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#69209 - 11/07/13 07:05 PM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: Lucander]
Julie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 2090
Loc: SoCal
Hey folks, please add some of this commentary to the MP version of the route if you feel motivated.

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#69210 - 11/07/13 11:54 PM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: Julie]
Dana Offline
addict

Registered: 07/13/00
Posts: 619
Dave, on the second pitch I recall getting the purple and grey Metolius TCUs to protect that section. Some people feel and -and they have a point - that those pieces are just too small to be considered protection. But both of them together? Probably good.

Mike, yes, in terms of protection that first section up to the the crux is classic, classic 'Gunks - a cluster of tiny nuts and cams characterized as:

crap
probably okay
maybe okay
these pieces are a joke
might hold a fall
will rip out under body weight


Etc., etc.

And to think. There are people out there would like to install bolts at the 'Gunks and deprive us all of this sublime pleasure.

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#69211 - 11/08/13 02:09 AM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: Dana]
Bill2 Offline
stranger

Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 3
Quote:
crap
probably okay
maybe okay
these pieces are a joke
might hold a fall
will rip out under body weight

Quote:
And to think. There are people out there would like to install bolts at the 'Gunks and deprive us all of this sublime pleasure.


Dana, I hear you. I do appreciate the Preserve holding the line on bolting but then I do spend a lot of time on Cannon and up in North Conway so I am use to relying on one's own wits and skill. New Hampshire is of course the "Live Free Or Die" state.

That said on Ruby Saturday I would not have proceeded to make the moves if I wasn't very confident the nut would have held what would have been a pretty short fall since the consequences of having the nut pull would have likely been pretty severe. And yes I have climbed above gear as you describe at the Gunks but only when confident that the piece after such "head gear" was solid and the fall would be clean. In fact I have the tendency to eschew placing the head gear and just climb on it such situations. Pump clock versus marginal gear calculus and all that.

For instance is it really worth fiddling with a nut behind the flexing flake on Apoplexy or getting the pink tricam in the pocket versus climbing through? Not that the pump clock is really ticking from that stance.

To keep it in perspective however, I had to work to get the nut in on Ruby Saturday. The feet were tenuous and I was locked off with my left hand on a okay crimp while fiddling with the nut. If memory serves me correctly I was up and down 4 or 5 times fiddling with it, setting it, getting the extended draw on it and clipping it. It was warm in the sun. I got quite the work out and had definitely broke a sweat before I was ready to move up. Earlier in my trad career I would have soiled my pants and backed off.

Looking forward to going back and doing it again. Looking forward to doing the 2nd pitch this time as well. My partner took it but backed off due to concerns about gear and went out left and then back right. He had a red C3 under his feet and directly about the belay. I followed through the normal line and spotted a small pocket up right that would have protected the moves up to pin. Perhaps the black alien would go in there.

Bill

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#69214 - 11/08/13 04:07 PM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: Dana]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
I've never really understood the protection ratings and think that, in many ways, we were better off without them. That said, I think there should be no such thing as a "G" rating when very small gear is involved, regardless of how close it is to the crux or how much of it there is.

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#69215 - 11/08/13 10:34 PM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: rg@ofmc]
oenophore Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 5969
Loc: 212 land
I've never really understood the protection ratings and think that, in many ways, we were better off without them.

Ok, make your argument for this.
_________________________

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#69216 - 11/09/13 12:52 AM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: oenophore]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
More routes got done for one thing. Nowadays, an R rating scares everyone off. I think lots more people did R-rated routes before anyone knew the routes were R-rated. Folks went up, and if it was scary, maybe they backed off but maybe not. I don't think it was more dangerous, but it was more common for people to back off and come back, sometimes multiple times, before eventually succeeding.

The flip side, perhaps illustrated by the Ruby Saturday discussion, is that a misapplied G rating lures people onto climbs that they may genuinely not be ready to deal with, and the rating puts them in a frame of mind that may not be conducive to effective reality-testing. ("It's G-rated, so there's gotta be some good pro up ahead even though I don't see where it could be...")

In general, the idea that any route could, in modern terms, be R-rated meant one approached climbs with a different mental outlook, one that was at once more cautious but also better primed for the unexpected.

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#69217 - 11/09/13 01:18 AM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: rg@ofmc]
RangerRob Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 3765
Loc: Ulster County, NY
I tend to agree with Rich on this. I have always contended that you don't really know your lead limit until you walk up to a route with no information. No route name, no description, no gear rating, no knowledge of there being a route there. Then and only then is your true boldness revealed. I've confidently hopped on 5.10's here, knowing full well that gear will be available because of a G rating, or because of a detailed description. I've backed off 5.7's at Lost City and in the Nears when I attempted to just do them with no knowledge...fully shitting my pants with no gear in sight.

for some people, like Rich, they are emboldened by that lack of gear and it really helped them push their limits. Others, like me, realize that we are in fact not 5.10 onsight climbers


Edited by RangerRob (11/09/13 01:19 AM)

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#69218 - 11/09/13 02:42 AM Re: is ruby saturday direct really G? [Re: RangerRob]
rg@ofmc Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/25/99
Posts: 2468
Loc: Poughkeepsie, NY
Well, there was a time when I was a 5.10 onsight climber, but that time is not the present. Donini I ain't, although we are the same age.

Rob is making a different point than I was asserting, one with its own validity, at least for some, but still a different one.

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