Having grown up and lived all my life in NYC, it is time for me to get outta here and try somewhere new. I would like to go west and I have narrowed it down to Jackson Hole, Colorado, or California. Factors that come into play include low cost of living, and ease of finding a job as well as a place to live. I also want to be close to the mountains, which is key, probably my main reason for wanting to leave NY. Ideally, I'd like to be able to climb rock and ice, and snowboard all year round. Am I asking for too much?
I studied Environmental Studies and Geology in school so I would like working in that field, but I would just as much like to work in outdoor retail or the hospitality industry, having experience in both. Main thing is, I am looking for a place with good people, good mountains and low cost of living. I really wanted to go to the Bay Area, but it would be way too expensive.
Another thing, I havent been out to any of these places so I have no idea what to expect. This is where you guys come in. I would greatly appreciate any feedback.
well, I hope I didnt bore you all too much.
Thanks a bunch!
Cheers,

For Colorado I'd suggest you consider Grand Junction. Pretty good weather (the banana belt of Colorado), not expensive like a lot of Colorado towns, jobs (and maybe in your field) might be there, and its close to both Utah and Colorado climbing and snowboarding.

Viva Las Vegas !

I lived in vegas for a while and it is hard to beat. Lots of jobs and 25 min to red rocks, 1 hour to mt Charleston for skiing in winter, and climbing in summer. Let me also throw out Reno where I currently live. Patagonia is a major employer here for outdoor retail possibilities. The cost of living is relatively cheap ( a little cheaper than Philly). We are 45 minutes from Tahoe basin for all the skiing you could want a dozen resorts. The Sierra's are right out your door so back country possibilities are there to be had. As for climbing it is 3.5 to Bishop, 3 to toulomne, 1.5 to lovers leap, 45 to Donner. It has its limits living in a cow town but San Fran is only 3.5 hrs away for culture or whatever

I wouldn't rule the Bay area out entirely. There are more affordable areas as you go inland.

Personally, I could not imagine living in Las Vegas. But that's just me.

You might also consider Salt Lake City. It has everything you are talking about in spades ... with the exception maybe an appropriate university for your studies.

I'll make the case for LA. There is still affordable places to live in various areas. The weather is awesome. You have an incredible number of top colleges and universities. JTree and Idyllwild are 2 hours away. A great sprto climbing crag is just 40 minutes from house up in the San Gabriels. There's excellent bouldering and TRing 30-45 minutes from almost anywhere in the city. There's skiing and snowboarding in the San Gabriels and San Bernadinos. I live in Pasadena, so I'm right near the mountains and the hiking up there is terrific.

Yosemite is 4-5 hours away.

hookers.
cant forget the hookers.

Jackson is an expensive town to live in. Most everyone I've ever known from JH lives over the border in towns like Victor, Idaho and commutes. There should definitely be plenty of job opportunites in the hospitality industry though.

Well, I'm in a similiar situation. I'm about to start nursing school (second degree) and once I finish I can basically get a job anywhere, so I'm open to suggestions about the best place in the country to live. My plan though, is to take a couple of road trips to check it out before I actually move somewhere. This summer will be my first roadtrip and I'm gonna hit Colorado and Wyoming and hopefully Idaho and the Valley too.

Try Bend, Oregon. Mt. Hood has good glaciations for year round skiing/boarding. It is very near Smith Rocks for your climbing needs and far enough in land that it avoids the dreaded Pacific Northwest Rain cycles. The town itself is laid back and pretty cool but definitely a small town. I know nothing about the employment opportunities in the area.

La is a horrible horrible place.

I'll make a case for the greater NYC area. Gunks 90 minutes away. Seneca 7 hours away. Adirondacks 4 hours away. White Mountains 5 hours away. The greatest city in the world on your doorstep. I know it doesn't have the big mountain feel of a place out west but for sheer number of routes in a concentrated area it is hard to beat (hold your fire Colorado elitists). That reminds me I gotta go I’m ice climbing in the Daks this weekend.

You've narrowed it to one small tourist town smack in the middle of big mountains in WY, and two farily large states. Seems pretty broad to me. Before throwing out a lot of suggestions, have you considered what you're really looking for? Do you want to be in a big city, relatively close to a big city, or just have some city ammenities? Or do you want to be in a small town? You said you wanted to be close to the mountains but you had considered the Bay Area. NYC is closer to the mountains than the Bay Area is.

Maybe if you can narrow things down a bit more? I'd second the vote for SLC since it has a lot of what you seem to be looking for plus the city ammenities without it being a big city. It's also so close to so much else (eg: the Tetons are an easy weekend drive). However, culturally you trade the big city vibrancy and party scene for access to the mountains. It's hard to find a good martini here, but I can be at Alta or Snowbird within a half hour from my house.

Remember that the interior west is politically far more conservative than anything you're used to on the coasts or in the Northeast. Some transplanted folks find this unbearable. Our liberal democrats - the few that you can find on the legislature - are more conservative than the republicans in CT (where I lived for the 22 years before moving here).

Personally, I couldn't stand living in Vegas, anywhere in either the LA basin or Bay Area (too crowded), and most of the small towns (I prefer a choice of sushi restaurants). Your best bet might be to visit potential towns / cities of interest and look at them with a very critical eye. Pay attention to lifestyle issues, local politics, etc., not where the good climbing crags are located. Pick up local papers. Listen to local radio. Check out the job market. Read the local alternative paper(s).

I can tell you more about SLC as I suspect Hank Moon can. PM if you like.

I'd 2nd the GUNKS cept for the job market and the Cost of Living

Having lived in the New Paltz and now five years in Vegas after traveling and living as a complete vagrant climbing bum for five years, Vegas (while not perfect) provided the right mixture.
2 hrs to J Tree
2 hrs to Zion
5 hrs to Maple Canyon
5 hrs to Tuolumne
6 hrs to the Valley
4-5 hr to Bishop, Owens, Buttermilks
Utah powder right up the road.

Really the highest concentration of World class areas within 8 hrs.
If one is willing to do that type of driving, it gives HUNDREDS of options.

Moab- 6hrs.

PLUS..the job market out here is fantastic. Still the fastest growing metro area in the country, which means $$$$$. Just buying a home hear makes one some $$$.
Oh, and the best, long moderate (for mortals such as myself) climbing in the country 15 minutes out the back door.

Nothing beats the Gunks for climbing, tho...that's why I still make pilgrimages when the weather is good. Mid spring and mid autumn. I almost forget what it's like to climb when it's humid.


One need not live on the Strip, inside a casino...

The Las Vegas metro area has much going for it. But it seems to have bad air quality on tranquil summer days and its water supply is not great and will bring growth to a halt soon.

I'd probably second Salt Lake City. Having just gotten back, its pretty nice being able to rock climb or ice climb 10min-40min from town, and being really close to world class rock.

I currently live in the Bay Area (after have lived in NYC on and off for 12 yrs) and the climbing here is great but you have to like driving. Calavaras Dome, Yosemite, Tuolumne, Donners Summit, are all world class areas but they are also 3-4 hrs away. Now if you live in Sacramento, they are all 1-2 hrs away. As for cost of living, for $1000-$2000/mos expect to get a shoebox or if you want to buy, look at $500,000 for a fixer-upper if they can still be found.

Chas, that supports what I hear from my Bay area colleagues. The folks that have moved out there recently are commuting an hour each way and are lucky to get a smallish house for 600K.

I like Poughkeepsie myself: Gunks 40 minutes. Ice 90 minutes. Skiing 90 minutes. Adirondacks 3 to 4 hr. Rumney 4 hr. Whites 5 hr. NYC...well who needs the city?

Definition of "centrally located" for a western city seems to be 5 hr from everything.

Have you thought about Denver or the suburbs outside of Denver. I just visited there and, while the cost of living is high INSIDE Denver city limits, it goes down considerably when you get to the outskirts. But, put this all in perspective...NYC is the most expensive city in the U.S. in which to live.

Denver is thriving, adding new hospitals, bringing in new developments. My friends live in Castle Rock and absolutely love it. They don't go into Denver at all any more.

I also have a friend living in Durango,CO (in the southwestern corner) who is living the dirtbag lifestyle right now. But, he skies at Purgatory and climbs when he wants. He's working constant temp jobs all over the place.....but, alas, he's young (23) and have the time and energy to look for bargains every where he goes. He's also into geology and has a degree in it. He's got some lines into geology gigs in the area but nothing has panned out.

Are you looking to live this type of temporary lifestyle? or are you looking to put down roots? It sounds more like you want to move to play, which is cool. I say, explore while you can because you'll be settled down with roots soon enough.

If you're willing to explore, you can move from city to city until you find something you like. In the space of 5 years, you should find something good. It always takes 1-2 years before you really feel good about a new place anyway.

Kathy

missoula, missoula, missoula...five or six major crags, from bolted limestone to big walls, within 45 minutes, very steep skiing/snowboarding right outside of town, fly-fishing/kayaking galore, ungodly amounts of hiking/biking/cross-country trails in ungodly amounts of wilderness wrapped around one of the most progressive small cities with a top-notch school you'll find west of the mississippi...

Said to have bad air quality on quiet winter days.

name a city out west that doesn't...

Here's one of the big differences between a town like Missoula and a small city like SLC. Below are the concert listings (from Pollstar) for Missoula, now till 3/14/2005. The SLC listings for the same time period are at: this web page since the 300 are too much to copy paste. The pollstar listings generally do not include classical music or dance.

This is not to say Missoula is a bad place to live, but if this type of stuff is important to someone, it could sway the decision. Since the original poster said he lived in NYC all his life, any move to the mountain west will be a shock - some places more than others. If the goal is to play well rather than put down roots, then by all means, travel around and sample a bunch of places as another posted suggested.


Sat 03/15/03 Swivel Hips Smith Blue Heron

Fri 03/21/03 The Waybacks Elk's Lodge

Sat 03/22/03 Xiu Xiu Jay's Upstairs

Mon 03/24/03 Bigger Lovers Jay's Upstairs

Tue 03/25/03 "Lord Of The Dance" Troupe Two Adams Event Center

Wed 03/26/03 Five Foot Thick Buck's

Fri 03/28/03 The Shakedowns Jay's Upstairs
Fri 03/28/03 Drums & Tuba The Ritz

Sat 03/29/03 New Monsoon Top Hat

Mon 03/31/03 Sound Tribe Sector 9 Wilma Theatre

Wed 04/02/03 Shindig Jay's Upstairs

Wed 04/09/03 The Midnight Evils Jay's Bar

Sun 04/13/03 Laurie Lewis Crystal Theatre

Wed 04/16/03 Deathray Davies Jay's Upstairs

Sat 04/19/03 Bobby Bare University Theatre

Thu 04/24/03 Clumsy Lovers The Ritz

Tue 04/29/03 Janis Ian University Theatre

Sat 05/03/03 Emerson Drive Adams Event Center
Sat 05/03/03 Trick Pony Adams Event Center
Sat 05/03/03 Lucy Kaplansky Elk's Lodge

Fri 05/09/03 Easily Amused University Of Montana

Mon 05/19/03 Leo Kottke University Theatre

Fri 05/23/03 Ellen Says No Sean Kelly's

Sat 05/24/03 Ellen Says No Sean Kelly's

Wed 05/28/03 Idlewild Adams Event Center
Wed 05/28/03 Pearl Jam Adams Event Center

Sat 07/19/03 Gary Puckett High School

Mon 08/11/03 Tracy Byrd Western Montana Fair

Wed 11/05/03 Patty Larkin To Be Announced

Bolt:

Care to elaborate on why you find LA so horrible?

I'm an east coast transplant and initially I had a hard time adjusting to LA.

There are areas of LA I would never want to live. But other areas are terrific. It's not so much a city as it is a patchwork of many cities and areas.

I've been enjoying Pasadena more and more. The mountains are 5 minutes from my door and I've got half a dozen top climbing locales within 2 hours drive. And Yosemite within a 4-5 hour drive. Pasadena is a pretty cool little town. It's got Cal Tech and JPL ... very much a college town ... and it has a decidely east coast feel to it ... except it has awesome southern CA weather. Quite a bit of culture and history as well. From old gold mines in the mountains to the Huntington museum to the Green & Green masterpiece arts & crafts homes.

Used to live in Silver Lake and enjoyed that area very much. Bohemian and funky ... kind of Greenwich Village west coast with a lot more garage bands and 50s cars.

Other parts of LA I would not go near ... like Santa Monica.

'Course, I have to live out for my business. Given my druthers, I'd probably live in N. Cali.

What's *your* beef with LA?

some people bash L.A.

Some people bash Las Vegas.

Personally, I have the abilty to be unhappy no matter where I am

depends on the culture you're looking for...

a lot of indie bands hit missoula on their way through to seattle or denver, um's got a decent college radio station, there's a great record shop called rockin' rudies that won't make you miss bleeker street, there's a funky farmer's market on sundays, good bookstores, the lit department's been stellar since richard hugo and leslie fieldler shaped the thing back in the 60's and william kittiridge took it over in the 80's, and the lefties from berkely picked-up and moved there en mass 15 years ago (missoula's as white as slc, but conservative it ain't)...it's an artists/writer's town (seems like half the contributing editors from outside mag are either there or in bozeman/livingston)...yeah, if you're hankering for ballet, classical, and opera you'll be missing stuff, but a lot of the rest is there...

i'm as dyed-in-the-wool 'bout the city (nyu grad-school) as the next guy, and i've done my time out west in san fransisco and seattle...attila's elephants couldn't drag me from the gunks, but if i had to live in that hell called the west again, i'd burn in missoula...

and to hear my bro talk - who studied geology at um - the rocks program ain't bad either...

My first impression of LA was flying in at night. It's hard to find a place charming when it's a 3000 square mile carpet of non-stop streetlights.

Vegas is growing so F'in fast. The shopping centers and housing developments are now, what 5 miles from Red Rocks? Last time I was there they said there's a new school being built and opening every two weeks all year, every year, with no slowdown in sight. Wow.

Well, one thing I would never call LA is "charming." And, yeah, it is Sprawl City.

I originally never thought I could like anything about LA. But it's a city that you have to work at. The good stuff is here. But it's hard to find.

Vegas seems intent on becoming the new King of Sprawl. I can take it in small doses. A weekend here or there. Just finished the passage in Lynn Hill's book about living and working in Vegas. Sounded pretty grim. But now it's in a real boom phase. And if you love the desert, might be the perfect place. The summer heat, though, is brutal.

The most fascinating thing about Vegas I've heard recently is the large Hawaiian population that's growing there every day. Apparently with such a paucity of jobs on the islands, thousands of Hawaiians are moving to Vegas every year. Can you imagine that? Moving from paradise to the desert? I guess when you gotta pay the bills ...

Lester.....good call on the Hawaiin migration. And spot on with the abusrd irony of moving into a desert to survive!

Let me know if you're ever up here in Sin City and we can do some routes and talk about why this place isn't as good as the Gunks....

As far as LA, I used to be one of the bashers until I started spending some time there. Many charming areas. Absolutely gorgeous topographry--well maybe not LA itself, but the outskirts, San Gabriel Mtns, etc... No doubt Vegas is using LaLA as a Sprawl role model, but we've got a way to go...I'll have some $$$ and be long gone when that time comes.

TRIVIAL NOTE: More High School dropouts making over $100,000/year in Vegas than any other area....

TRIVIAL NOTE: More High School dropouts making over $100,000/year in Vegas than any other area....

That is one fascinating fact. Clark County is, in its own way, a land of opportunity. What do these dropout affluents do for a living?

TRIVIAL NOTE: More High School dropouts making over $100,000/year in Vegas than any other area....


Didn't know prostitution paid so well.

They're not "prostitutes".

They are "exotic dancers" and "professional escorts".

Since earnings from those types of professions tend to be cash/'off the books', how exactly (other than a fertile imagination) does somebody come up w/ such statistics?

Or course, if 2 Vegas HS dropouts make over $100k, and "any other area" is 1 or 0, then there's your explanation.

Why are we assuming that the statistics only include women in the sex trades? What about those other Las Vegas occupations that were featured in Casino, such as loan sharking, extortion, etc.? I'm sure those pay pretty well too.

Most are execs in the Casino industry. The point is that a College degree isn't necessary to get a good job and make $$$.

What other town would allow a dirtbag climber, living in a car for five years, to be able to get a good job with almost no qualifications, and move up into executive management in just a few years.

Also many are working in the fastest growing industry here in S NV....Film. and advertising.

Interesting to see where people'e minds take them.....

Fascinating! The LV metro area is extraordinary and unique in more ways than one.

I can't speak for Pasadena so I will comment on the areas of LA were I have been (my wife has family there who we visit from time to time and I passed through once on my way to Yosemtie). Sorry for the mispellings

Hollywood and West Hollywood-Getto

Santa Monica-more gap stores per sq ft than anywhere else in the US. All in nice prefab buildings

Venice beach-dirty, crowded, no place to eat-which can be said for everywhere I have been in LA. Kind of like a pre Rudy east village without the artists.

Palos Verdes-If you can afford a 2 million dollar house on the cliffs to whatch whales swim from your patio I supose it would be great. But your still going to commute 2 hrs work.

Malibu-See Palos Verdes

Bellaeare_if you can afford it and like to buy your clothes at escada wonderful enjoy.

The valley-sprawled out suburb, ie. ten lane streets and stip malls. Its fine as long as you like eating at the cheese cake factory and shopping at IKEA.

Now for broader gipes: sprawl, smog, huge highways, celebrity worship, to many fifty year old guys with pony tails and fake tans drving convertibles.

On that HBO show about the Bunny Ranch, some of the more successful "escorts made $1000 per hr.

>some of the more successful "escorts made $1000 per hr

Cool, I could get laid for, let's see, $45 .

Only if you're "successful" though.

Well, if he was all done in 2.7 minutes, (if my math is correct - $45 vs $1000/hour) then on some level you could call that "successful"

"Uh yes, me and 'Mrs Smith' would like to rent a hotel room for 2.7 minutes, please?"

Check the rates. There's usually an hour or two minimum.....
(they need some way to make up for the 2.7 crowd! )

How many guys might want to subdivide the hour?

It was 1hr minimum and $1000 any part of an hour there after. I have to say the chicks getting this money were very hot. People did divide time up a husband and wife split a bill as did two brothers.
I also found out today the most famous and expensive brothel in Holland is called Yab Yum. Well no I know where that name came from

all three of the above offer extremely different living standards. Missoula is a tiny town in one of the most desolate places in the world, with a population of ~80,000. It is a very tight job market, with only two real companies that are hiring people-washington industries and the bus logistics company. If you move there after university it would be very hard to find a job because you lack the bro-down network. (unless you're already a rn...) The climbing has some excellent bits, but unfortunately lots of junk. Oh, and when winter comes for real, you is in for a bit of education.

salt lake is a sort of boom city. with a couple of million mormons and mexicans and a ton of other folk, its an actual city with actual businesses and a lot of different social circles and employment opportunities. housing is the same price or cheaper for better than missoula, and the climbing is better hands down.

the air quality in both of the above can range from total crap to quite nice in the winter, but missoula's is more generally crap. Both city's have good snowboarding terrain, but salt lake areas get more regular snow and have better lifts for the on-area terrain. In terms of music, both places are cultural backwaters (comparing them to nyc here), the difference being that in missoula that indy band is a bunch of friends from town and in salt lake you had to join DV8 to pay the $5 to get in to see the band making its way outta town.

bend is a place i am curious about. my snowboarder friends have all done a tour of duty in or around bend, and say its a nice town. Work is apparently tourism based and the town is very expensive for housing. But why not portland?

Do you know why its called jackson hole? because it is a hole. i hate the town, its true, but what can you say about the town that in the 2000 census had the highest boy:girl ratio in the 21-35 age group? Driggs is an okay town, but work? hmmm. you might get a job, you might not...

don't go to bend! It's a horrible place and you will find nothing that interests you there!

And the Trapps still have 12 foot snow drifts at the base.

Bolt:

Had I not moved to LA and lived here for 9 years, I would have agreed with everything you wrote. As it is, I still agree with 80 percent of your complaints.

However, on closer inspection, LA has far more to offer.

Unfortunately, LA is not like New York wherein you can walk for 20 blocks and discover the city block by block. Even just living here for years will not guarantee you find anything worthwhile in LA. You really need to go out and find it ... and it really helps if you have a local to guide you.

Just as I found that there are some terrific places to eat and hang out in Vegas (off the strips and away from the casinos) it didn't surprise me that after living in Los Angeles a while that I began to discover great neighborhoods, stores and restaurants.

Next time you're in the area, drop me a line. I can help hook you up with great food, things to do and yes, excellent climbing!

agreed lester - i didn't start enjoying LA until after living there for awhile, and especially after going out with friends who knew where to go. after that i loved it, and some of the climbing is really good. it does suck having to drive through all those suburbs - beautiful places like san bernardino, to get to jtree though. i would move to LA before i move back to NYC.

the climbing in salt lake flat out sucks compared to denver and the front range. the sport climbing is better if that is where you priority is, but the trad climbing is a shadow of eldo, lumpy ridge, south platte, vedauwoo, etc. it is two hours closer to moab though, and closer than that to the san rafael swell. if it didn't have so damn many mormons, i might consider living there for the proximity to the desert, but as it is i'll endure my commute from denver.

denver/boulder is basically ideal. world class trad, bouldering, and alpine on really diverse rock. ok sport, decent aid, and terribly crowded though good ice. quick drive to a lot of places. sort of a cultural backwater, but downright cosmopolitan compared to salt lake. the colorado symphony is really quite good, there are some decent places to hear jazz, and the full complement of touring acts come through. after 2.5 years here i have finally found enough good restaurants to keep me from pining for new york at dinner time, but the good places are not always easy to find. i can't imagine why people live here if they aren't climbers, but its good for me.

Hey guys,
Thanks for all your input and support. Sorry it took so long for me to get back to everyone.
you guys raised a lot of interesting points and things for me to consider, esp Marc and Kathy. Right now I'm temping at these big time law firms, and it isnt really doing anything for me other than a paycheck. I mean, shuffling papers and photocopying all day isnt really the most interesting thing. I do know what I want to do eventually but I am not ready to do that yet. Thats why I want to move out West, to try a new lifestyle and really focus on my climbing and snowboarding. I was going to go out to visit a friend out in Bend, OR where she is a snowboard instructor at Mt. Bachelor, and she was gonna take me out to Smith Rock. however, she's outta there early April and I cant make it out then so I am gonna link up with her in Boulder.
the best thing is definitely to take a road trip and check out as many places as I can, getting a feel for the place. This was a problem until yesterday tho because I had no car and nobody to go with, but last night, a friend of mine said he wants to do the same. So we are hitting the road in june, in search of a new place that will welcome us city folk.
I think I am done with big cities for now, looking for smaller places, but not tiny.
Anyway, I'll keep you guys posted and thanks for all the input, it gave me a lot to reflect upon.
Cheers,

Finally got out of NYC and am now living in Bend Oregon. Drove out in about a week and a half ago and I have 2 part time jobs, one up at Mt Bachelor and another at a gear shop in town. Been out climbing at Smith Rocks a bunch already so it has been good.
Thanks for all your help, input and support and if anyone is going to be out here in this area, definitely give me a shout, it would be great to climb with some Gunkies out here. Hope all is well out on the East Coast.
Cheers,
Jason

this thread is funny to see. after trash talking SLC so much, now i live here. the trad climbing is a little better than i made it out to be, but still not nearly as good as the front range though it certainly is more convenient. skiing makes a big difference to me - i didn't ski the last time i posted but now i like to ski better than i like to climb so salt lake is as good as it gets.