Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope

Posted by: yellowhouse

Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 01:22 PM

Anyone have the full story on this one from this past weekend?

I have sketchy details like: beginning leader...climbing as a party of 3 on High E...after the .move girl swung...got very upset...boyfriend and girlfriend tied into the same rope...inexperienced rescuers...cut the rope to free her...

Questions abound. Anyone with the real story?
Posted by: Terrie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 01:37 PM

...this ought to make for major rc.com internet drama. We were on Southern Pillar when our party heard the girl screaming(who at the Trapps didn't????).

I have no details as to what was going on. But my read of the thing(which obviously is just what I thought at the time and has no real relevance) was that it sounded like the screamer was very new to climbing and freaked out. Like, first time on the rope climbing.....

I was thinking it was some family TR'ing a kid under 10 by the sheer, uncontrollable terror she seemed to be expressing. I can't imagine someone doing a multipitch(High E?!?!!!) with a child who would have found themselves that frightened.

While the screaming went on for a longish amount of time for TR standards(which is understandable, now that I read it was'nt a TR....), it wasn't *that* long, in consideration of a multipitch rescue.

Cut rope? That sounds bizarre.
Posted by: empicard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 02:00 PM

i heard some weird ass shit from a guy down at the willaims wall...
he had heard it from someone at a party. sounded ridiculous. would love to hear the rest of the details.
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 02:02 PM

From the No Glow area on the GT, Saturday, I saw a woman hanging with her head just below the upper buttress - so the move was just out of reach - and another person to her right, probably just at 'the move' and trying to coach her into it.

I heard a bit of whining - something like "I know how to do it!" ??, but there were two guys on the last pitch of Erect Direction who were much noisier. I also heard some screaming that sounded like a (very) young child, but definitely seemed to be coming from a different area - to climber's left of No Glow.

By the time we got down & back to our packs, the climber was no longer hanging in space. That's all I know.
Posted by: alicex4

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 02:07 PM

here's the skinny, related later that eve at a party. Source- 3 guys on Modern Times. High E is crowded. A party of 3 takes off and gets to the ledge. Second party of 5 takes off too. 1st party leader takes off the GT ledge and does the last pitch. the other two in the party decide to simul climb the last pitch, cowtailed together. 2nd and 3rd climber of ist party get stuck. 2nd can't move and the third is dangling, I suppose near the GT ledge. Enter the screaming sounds. The party of 5's "leader" tosses out some webbing (and a knife I guess) to the chick dangling. Then there's the "one, two, three" count and the ledge party pulls the dangling chick just as she cuts the rope. My friends on Modern Times said, "We couldn't believe what we saw and that nobody died", the guys on Modern Times had no idea that the parties would CUT a rope or they obviously would have intervened. I can't figure out why anyone would think that this was a suitable solution. CUTTING a rope, you've got to be kidding me! I haven't heard how she made out, I figure she had to slam into the GT pretty hard. Now some ass leader thinks that he saved the day by getting that chick to cut her rope. Doh!
Posted by: quanto_the_mad

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 02:16 PM

Wow...
Posted by: chip

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 02:40 PM

I quess if it was good enough for Clint Eastwood it must be the way to go.
Posted by: phil

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 03:10 PM

 Originally Posted By: alicex4
here's the skinny, related later that eve at a party. Source- 3 guys on Modern Times. High E is crowded. A party of 3 takes off and gets to the ledge. Second party of 5 takes off too. 1st party leader takes off the GT ledge and does the last pitch. the other two in the party decide to simul climb the last pitch, cowtailed together. 2nd and 3rd climber of ist party get stuck. 2nd can't move and the third is dangling, I suppose near the GT ledge. Enter the screaming sounds. The party of 5's "leader" tosses out some webbing (and a knife I guess) to the chick dangling. Then there's the "one, two, three" count and the ledge party pulls the dangling chick just as she cuts the rope. My friends on Modern Times said, "We couldn't believe what we saw and that nobody died", the guys on Modern Times had no idea that the parties would CUT a rope or they obviously would have intervened. I can't figure out why anyone would think that this was a suitable solution. CUTTING a rope, you've got to be kidding me! I haven't heard how she made out, I figure she had to slam into the GT pretty hard. Now some ass leader thinks that he saved the day by getting that chick to cut her rope. Doh!


No F**KING Way!!! \:o

Thats just too... too... I'm speechless, totally speechless...
Posted by: yellowhouse

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 03:19 PM

My real concern is the this kind of thing is going to continue to happen, and the consequences will be dire for all of us (people getting hurt/killed, cliff closures). As more and more people come out of the gym onto the rock, they are not using sound judgement, or any judgement regarding risk assessment. How does anyone learn that with out making the mistakes though? NOLS?, Guide Service? Freedom of the HIlls?

This issue will probably be one of the toughest issues facing climbing in the future.

Maybe it's just Darwinism at work...
Posted by: learningtolead

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 03:28 PM

No way! So vertical limit was a true story after all?
Posted by: KathyS

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 03:33 PM

I was trying to climb while she was screaming and had a tough time focusing, even though I was on a 5.2. It made my hair stand on end. I'm glad to hear no one was hurt. It's very scary what some folks think is acceptable practice.

Kathy
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 03:33 PM

That is insane...!

WHAT THE F*CK!?!

Did they learn to climb from watching Vertical Limit? This is bad...

Were the Rangers notified? This seems like something that warrents a STERN talking to... And perhaps a newspaper on the nose!

I really hope that your story isn't quite true and was embelished with beer, but I am very afraid it's what went down...

(Is there a thread on RC.com about this yet?)
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 04:07 PM

Can I put $10 on "autoblocked belay device, couldn't lower" please?

I have this theory that the more we see new devices and tools, the fewer people there are who know how to ... belay, or just plain think.
Posted by: empicard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 04:11 PM

Alicealicealicealice-

the person i heard the story from sunday said they heard it at a party as well.
they quoted the same line "We couldn't believe what we saw and that nobody died."

unfrikkinbelievable.
Posted by: Coppertone

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 04:17 PM

A reliable friend of mine who was nearby on Saturday told me the same story on Sunday when I saw him, so I do not think that your information was embellished. All parties involved should get a ban from the Preserve until then receive some proper instruction. Good thing that leader remembered to carry his knife, I don't know what would have happened had he left it in his pack.
Posted by: alicex4

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 04:23 PM

Dude, 2 of the three witenesses were "Rod, Dan Ling, and another guy" All reputable sources. They were flabbergasted at the sight.
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 04:32 PM

If it came from Dan Ling and Waddawick, I'll buy it.
Posted by: strat

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 04:37 PM

I wonder if an orange metolius 4CU involved?
Posted by: Smike

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 04:57 PM

Its legit. When I heard the story my eyes popped outta my head.

Someone asked how the girl got down from the GT. (I have no knowledge btw) but said you could walk the GT over to the second rap bolts on high E rap line. They said, 'dam that must of have been scary', I say thats nothing after doing the Vertical Limit stunt.

Posted by: Terrie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 06:35 PM

...I just noticed a new "event" on the Home Page, that Chelsea Piers is teaching basic climbing, 4 sessions, with option of a day with EMS afterward... Sounds form the small blurb that it is geared toward outside and not simply gym climbing. If so - kudos to the gym for taking some action to help their cash cow survive long enough to renew memberships....(joke)
Posted by: wombat

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 06:53 PM

 Originally Posted By: Terrie
...I just noticed a new "event" on the Home Page, that Chelsea Piers is teaching basic climbing, 4 sessions, with option of a day with EMS afterward... Sounds form the small blurb that it is geared toward outside and not simply gym climbing. If so - kudos to the gym for taking some action to help their cash cow survive long enough to renew memberships....(joke)


the CP wall is great for building strength but I hadn't noticed too many good (or not so good) gear placements, rocks, loose flakes, snakes or anything else involved in climbing. i am not sure whether this is a step forward or a confidence boost to someone who should hook up with a more experienced climber for a while to learn. i am too young to sound so old, but as this episode clearly demonstrates, there is no substitute for real experience. With the numbers of people climbing now and the legal/access climate such as it is, we dont have the leeway that the pioneers had to go out and teach themselves with a goldline and EBs
Posted by: BrianRI

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 06:57 PM

 Originally Posted By: Coppertone
...All parties involved should get a ban from the Preserve until then receive some proper instruction...


This type of thing is becoming more common with the multitudes with no instruction/experience. You can’t mandate a certain level of knowledge/experience. As you probably know, the AMC tried to do that many years ago and the Vulgarians ended that pretty quickly. I was walking off the top of the cliff at dusk and came across a group of young people from Brooklyn who had just climbed Beginner's Delight. They were a party of four with two ropes and two belay devices. They had a Blackberry and were searching Google on how to do a carabineer brake rappel. Two of them were going to rap off using the belay devices and two using a carabineer brake with their new found knowledge from the Internet. They had tried to walk off from the top of cliff but didn't trust the trail and had gotten “lost” so they returned to the top of the climb. I told them to follow me and led them down to the Uberfall. As we were walking down I asked them if they knew of the Munter hitch but they had never heard of it. Unfortunately more people and less knowledge/experience is going to equal more injuries and deaths.
Brian
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 07:09 PM

If I had a nickel for the number of times I've swung between saying nothing at all, and trying to intervene ....

but we really need to police our own. We can't leave it up to the Preserve because you know where that line of reasoning goes.

I can completely understand that the party on MT never thought in a million years they'd see what they saw - but if they saw enough to tell stories about it later, then they saw enough to go chase 'em down and chew 'em out.

Still shaking my head here. Unbelievable. As is your story, Brian!
Posted by: Terrie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 07:11 PM

wow....

And as of yet, there's still no thread on rc.com about any of this. What's taking them so long!!!??? How could they miss such an obvious opportunity for gumbys advising gumbys???

As for the CP thing, I agree with what the person upthread said....But on the other hand, at least it is something. I used to go to 59th Street gym and they had Mike Cimono come down a couple times and teach us escaping the belay and self-rescue. His teaching was definitely applicable to outdoors reality, even though the rope was anchored onto a BF metal pipe and not a tree....
Posted by: phlan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 07:15 PM

I still don't understand exactly what happened, am I stupid or is this sh*t just too crazy and freakish to comprehend?

now I'm even more glad that I was out of town.

I hate hearing people screaming. Unless it's at a Rob Zombie flick.

PS Julie If I'm right there and someone is REALLY about to die, I will and have intervened. and I'm glad I did. Saved at least one life.
Posted by: Doug

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 07:36 PM

Was this on Saturday? I was climbing near there and heard a commotion that sounded like the situation described (up to the girl dangling in space with no idea how to remedy it - no idea there were ropes being cut). We headed the other way to avoid any dramatic rappel...
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 07:39 PM

but that (hating the screaming) is part of the problem. I hate it too. I avoid crowds of gang-ropers who have no idea the effect they're having on everyone else, like the plague. I don't want to go anywhere near know-it-all new leaders of parties of 5. I -really- don't want to get between Boyfriend and Girlfriend (Who Is About To Die).

I'd like to think I'd intervene, but between the ugly scenarios I don't want to be any part of, and the reactions I get when I *do* try to say something ... the very things that need approached, are exactly why you don't want to approach them.

That's why I need a nickel for every time I've swung from saying something, to abiding by the Ten Second Rule.

But still.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 07:57 PM

Oh crap. I'd agree with whoever suggested there was an autolocking device like an ATC Guide or a Reverso involved.

If they could pass her a knife, they could just as easily have passed up a cam to stick in one of the many horizontals, so she could anchor in directly (thus get her weight off the other party on the rope with her) until someone rapped down to rescue her.

Unreal.

GO
Posted by: phlan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 07:58 PM

my Main reason for intervening in said circumstance is that at least they won't die in front of ME!
Let them die where and when they may, I just don't want to see the carcass and the blood.
if there is not great risk of imminent DEATH, I always walk away as fast as I can. very simple rules to live by. :-)
I even had to do this with my sister and brother in law once. No - neither of them died.
Posted by: yellowhouse

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 08:03 PM

I guess the reality is that there are always going to be ridiculous leaders out there, as there are always going to be crazy drivers out there, and some of them are going to get hurt/die.

The problem is complacency, there are close to 60,000 deaths by car wreck per year, and no one does anything. But when someone dies climbing, every non-climber's reaction is 'Well that was stupid of them. They shouldn't have been there anyway. Let's ban climbing so it doesn;t happen again..."

Stupid world.
Posted by: crackers

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 08:04 PM

I heard 'em too. Amazing screaming...and I think I heard the girl and her two friends talking about it on the way down. I heard the girl saying "...when i cut the rope..." and while the active part of my mind latched onto the phrase, I couldn't believe that is what I had heard.

I think I know how to find them. I'll see what comes out of it...
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 08:14 PM

To cast a broader net for info, I created this thread. I wouldn't count on anything useful coming from it, but it might.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view&post=1900322#last

AliceX4, if you don't want me quoting your post, I'll remove it.

GO
Posted by: wombat

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 08:22 PM

if everyone drove like yellowhouse, there might be more of an outcry.

i'm with phlan - die somewhere else, i was involved in a fatal rafting episode and not looking to repeat it climbing. but if someone is dumb in front of me, i will make an observation. i have saved one newby from rapping off the rope prepared by his "leader". i think he appreciated it, even if his leader didnt after i told him off.
Posted by: phlan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 08:52 PM

I'm not going to tell someone how to belay if I see a sloppy belay - just to clarify. If someone has their rappel rigged wrong and is about to commit to the rappel for example - now that's another story. I will firmly intervene and take control of the situation. So, I'm not in agreement that we have to "police" ourselves.
Posted by: timh

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 08:53 PM

The real scary part is that someone, somewhere, is probably congratulating themselves on their "rescue".
Posted by: Coppertone

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 08:53 PM

I think that Dan was so tired from telling this story by Sunday he only had enough energy to give one belay and not climb.
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 08:57 PM

I'll intervene if there is the "experienced" climber telling or doing something unsafe with a noob, generally quietly directly to the noob...
If it's two "experienced" climbers and one has a nice open-handed belay but the other doesn't seem to care... well, that's their deal.

But it really depends, if I'm just dropping my pack on the ground at the base of a climb and something stupid seems to be going on... Usually the command of "run-away" in a Monty Python type voice gets repeated as we escape the situation...
But if we've already begun the climb and can't run-away, that's when I will open my mouth and say something... Because at least then, if something bad does happen, I said something...
Posted by: dalguard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 09:11 PM

If I'd been in the neighborhood, I'd have helped, but I certainly wouldn't have been shouting over advice from MT. Who knows what was going on there? Until we hear from one of the two parties involved, we're only guessing.

If the two seconds were attached to the same rope (someone said cow's tail), then the lower second was weighting the middle person, not the leader's belay device. In that case, the middle person needed to drop onto the rope so the top leader could do something. We really don't know yet. There could have been a legitimately stuck rope. The lower second could have been within grabbing range. For all the screaming, it sounds like everyone survived and that counts as a successful rescue to me. The fate of the rope isn't important.

FWIW, I hate commotion while I'm leading too. I always feel very selfishly like I should be getting the golf hush.
Posted by: empicard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 09:27 PM

Screw it.
Who cares what other people think?
I'll get right up in someone's biz if I see someone doing something stupid.
Such as "Hey buddy, ever heard of a 'degloving?' You might want to lose the ring." followed by a load of other "You obviously have no business on Laurel, mr rack-for-salathe-and-clueless-belayer-holding-the-rope-and-not-spotting-you, go climb something else."
Posted by: Terrie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 09:29 PM

Or, the one from outer space could have prussiked up the rope. Well, if they had the goods, and the knowledge on how to do it.

One hour on rc.com and only 12 posts. The place just ain't what it used to be, although J_ung looks like he's committed and set his lawnchair up early like a spectator for the 4th of July fireworks on the FRD.
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 09:34 PM

Better for the victim to hang in their harness for an hour (assuming harness hang syndrome does not set in, which it probably won't as long as the victim keeps moving and is otherwise in no risk of fainting) while waiting for a slow methodical rescue than it is to cut a rope and drop to a ledge with no backup plan in place.

Rescues get botched when people try to speed the rescue process along too fast, I'm sure it's especially tempting to speed up when one of the victims is a screamer. Getting down safely is more important than getting down in time for last call at the Otter. It is especially difficult for a rescuer to take control and keep the victim(s) from doing something rash... but that's exactly what needs to be done. Keep everyone calm.

At one time, I climbed at Bartlett's Cove in Maine, and my friend (a high school buddy I hadn't climbed with before) decided to do a spinning jump to a ledge, unbelayed, when our 50m rope came up 10 feet too short on rappel. I saw the psycho look in his eye when he was about to do this, and I knew what he was about to do. Said "don't do it" but he did it anyway. I haven't climbed with him since.
Posted by: alicex4

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 09:39 PM

Daleguard said, "There could have been a legitimately stuck rope. The lower second could have been within grabbing range. For all the screaming, it sounds like everyone survived and that counts as a successful rescue to me."
Not buying the stuck rope, seems we would have heard something more coherent than just screaming if the rope was stuck. As for the successful rescue, dude it was barely avoiding a calamity, by pure luck/happenstance. That chick and those people on the ledge have used up all their luck IMO. Static webbing, 1 wrong move, and the best you were gonna get out of this was a broken back. Really creepy.
Posted by: danskiz

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 09:42 PM

My first thought reading this was the leader clearly messed up, either not knowing how to give slack with a loaded autoblocking belay device, a poorly set up belay, or even a combination of the two. The more I think about it though, I can think of at least two legimiate reasons why the leader may not have been able to lower the third with two coming up at once. Won't really know until we hear more. BUT, it absolutly blows my mind that with a party of 5 people standing there, the best they could come up with to get her on the ledge is to have her cut the rope and pull her in?!? WTF!!!
Posted by: greyalien

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 10:05 PM

This is why i intentionally avoided the gunks over the weekend and went surfing...
Posted by: mikeharo

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 10:15 PM

Does anyone know the (first) names of the climbers involved? My good friend was climbing in a two male one female team and am curious. The other two in his party are relatively inexperienced but I doubt he would allow the situation to get that out of control.

I climb at the Gunks on weekdays mostly in the fall and spring to avoid the crowds and such...
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 10:29 PM

I think all of you holier than thou climbing forum geeks ought to just shut up and go back to your paperwork or whatever the hell it is you are doing right now.

RR
Posted by: Doug

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/27/08 11:09 PM

I'm stuck hanging off of High-E with a knife and posting on my cellphone, so I am anxiously awaiting replies to this thread...
Posted by: phlan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 12:38 AM

too late rob, by the time you posted no one was doing any paper work.
Posted by: Terrie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 01:05 AM

I'm a climbing forum addict, not a geek.
Posted by: D75

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 02:21 AM

 Originally Posted By: alicex4
here's the skinny, related later that eve at a party. Source- 3 guys on Modern Times. High E is crowded. A party of 3 takes off and gets to the ledge. Second party of 5 takes off too. 1st party leader takes off the GT ledge and does the last pitch. the other two in the party decide to simul climb the last pitch, cowtailed together. 2nd and 3rd climber of ist party get stuck. 2nd can't move and the third is dangling, I suppose near the GT ledge. Enter the screaming sounds. The party of 5's "leader" tosses out some webbing (and a knife I guess) to the chick dangling. Then there's the "one, two, three" count and the ledge party pulls the dangling chick just as she cuts the rope. My friends on Modern Times said, "We couldn't believe what we saw and that nobody died", the guys on Modern Times had no idea that the parties would CUT a rope or they obviously would have intervened. I can't figure out why anyone would think that this was a suitable solution. CUTTING a rope, you've got to be kidding me! I haven't heard how she made out, I figure she had to slam into the GT pretty hard. Now some ass leader thinks that he saved the day by getting that chick to cut her rope. Doh!

Classic...
Source 3 guys on Modern Times...

I suppose...

...and a knife, I guess ...

I can't figure out... (was not there. Second-hand story at a party. Smartest thing so far?)

Then to sum it all up with the most incredible speculation...
"I haven't heard how she made out, I figure she had to slam into the GT pretty hard. Now some ass leader thinks that he saved the day by getting that chick to cut her rope.



Gotta be good job as a gossip columnist just waiting for your application.
Posted by: empicard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 03:11 AM

No comment yet on a party of FIVE climbing high E?
Sounds like trouble from the get-go.
Posted by: fear

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 03:19 AM

We don't know what happened. Assuming she was freaking out (i.e. endless screaming) and unable to compose herself... If she was a few feet above the GT ledge and really close to the edge what's the big deal about slinging her in and cutting the rope? Seems like a quick solution to a simple problem. Alternatives (i.e. prussics) would require her to get it together and have put her in more danger.

And then I'd have to smack the original leader for having gumbies simulclimbing anything AND then putting them on an autoblock device that he didn't know how to use.

I'd imagine there's been more than enough screaming from seconds dangling from Modern Times. Hopefully no knives will enter into solutions there....

-Fear
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 01:20 PM

 Originally Posted By: fear
Alternatives (i.e. prussics) would require her to get it together and have put her in more danger.


I'm quite certain that without giving it too much thought you (or almost anyone here) can come up with at least one better solution.

For example - a competent member of the party of 5 could lead up above her to where the good horizontals are, build an anchor, rap down to her, transfer her off her rope and onto him (or her) and then continue to rap down to the ledge.

GO
Posted by: d-elvis

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 01:57 PM

Cannot say enough about a quality belay knife ;\)
Posted by: Coppertone

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 02:08 PM

 Originally Posted By: fear
Alternatives (i.e. prussics) would require her to get it together and have put her in more danger.



So giving a knife to a person who is in a panic is a great idea, nothing bad can ever come of that.
Posted by: Kent

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 02:14 PM

 Quote:
For example - a competent member of the party of 5 could lead up above her to where the good horizontals are, build an anchor, rap down to her, transfer her off her rope and onto him (or her) and then continue to rap down to the ledge.


If she was in fact hanging and couldn't unweight the rope it's a pretty safe bet that most climbers wouldn't be able to do this.
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 02:18 PM

OK, I have a new hypothesis.

From the GT at No Glow, I saw girl hanging, *and* a guy to her right. This guy may have been the leader of the party of 5, who would have climbed up to and above her, set some gear at The Move, and gotten her to tie in to another of his ropes that went though the gear and down to the GT. Essentially, this would put her on lead from the GT, but hanging from The Move. Then what I heard - "I know how to do it!" would be her referring to knowing how to tie in.

Then the "1, 2, 3" could have been the 5 people on the GT, hauling her in/up on that end so she could un-tension her own rope, and untie from it. (I'm kind of doubting the people from MT could differentiate webbing from a rope). Maybe that didn't work to un-tension her, so the next step was to cut her own line, while still on the line from below.

Just a thought... the party from below would have at least two ropes. Also, someone had to climb above her to set gear for her to hang/fall on - otherwise she would have factor 2'd past the GT, and we would have heard sirens.
Posted by: mikeharo

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 02:52 PM

Julie,

Did one member of the party of 3 have a full face beard?
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 03:01 PM

I wasn't close enough to see that level of detail, Mike, sorry. In addition, if I'm right, then the only person I saw from the party of 3, was the hanging woman; the other second would be above her and around the corner from my point of view, and the belayer was ... lost up top somewhere.
Posted by: dalguard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 03:02 PM

 Quote:
Also, someone had to climb above her to set gear for her to hang/fall on - otherwise she would have factor 2'd past the GT, and we would have heard sirens.

Agreed. If she was hanging from "the move" then she didn't just cut the rope and fall onto the GT ledge. Either she was closer to the GT ledge, within grabbing range, or there was another safety system in place when she cut the rope. We weren't there and we don't know.

If I'd been in the party below, I'd have climbed above her and built an anchor. I'd have attached both of us to the anchor and would have tried to give her a hand to pull her back onto the rock (or fix whatever was keeping her stuck). If that didn't work, I can see how cutting the rope would be my next choice.

Let's also remember that it's often impossible for the leader on High E to hear anyone below the move.
Posted by: quanto_the_mad

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 03:15 PM

That actually makes sense. There's a post by mojomonkey at the other site that says they also heard the other climbing guy say something about getting "freaked out", and "thinking it was his rope for a second". That wouldn't make sense if the 2nd climber was part of the party above, but would if the 2nd party's leader had built an anchor and had the hanging climber tied in on his rope.

Assuming the 2nd leader has her on belay, maybe they ran webbing up trough the anchor to the hanging climber and use that to try to lift her up so she could untie.

Posted by: Kent

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 03:29 PM

There is no need for a knife.

You need an anchor, a 5:1 mechanical advantage lift with an autolock of some kind and a releasable knot (muenter/mule or mariners) to her harness, and a second line (either your spidered rappel or an independently belayed lowering line or even two) to her harness.

Build the anchor, prerig the releaseable knot, build the 5:1, pick her up to unweight the knot to her harness, secure her to either your spidered rappel or tie her into both lowering lines (redundant because this is a rescue), untie her original knot, and then slowly release either the muenter/mule or mariner's to lower her onto the new line(s). Rappel or lower.

As I'm providing instruction on the intardweb, I must add...climbing is dangerous, try this at your own risk, seek out competent real life instruction....blah, blah, blah. Practice, practice, practice. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

This stuff can be a lot of fun if you like gear and rigging. Every once in a long while it comes in very handy.
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 03:58 PM

What Kent said...

There is NO need for a knife!

I'm not extremely well versed in all the Accidents in North American Mountaineering or all the other stories etc... But the ONLY one I could think of that was real (not a movie) was the Joe Simpson story (which was a bit more extreme than the HighE ledge) where his partner cut the rope!
And that's the only one I could think of... and his partner got BLASTED for it, even after holding him for over an hour and nearly getting himself killed in the process.
Posted by: Coppertone

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 04:08 PM

You may also have to cut your rope when it gets eaten by a crack out west. I have seen many a rope remnant stuck in cracks in Red Rocks. It hasn't happened to me(yet), but I can see where it could become necessary. Cutting a rope on High E is a different story.
Posted by: Smike

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 04:26 PM

I think the Monday morning Quarter backing is almost as entertaining as the original story of the Vertical Limit ala Joe Simpson style.
Posted by: Mark Heyman

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 04:46 PM

"the Monday morning Quarter backing is almost as entertaining as the original story "

It is!

With 2020 hindsight: Assuming the guy in the middle could help, rather than build an anchor the group of five could have simply climbed through. It’s a straight forward short pitch. Then there would have been 6 climbers topped out who probably could have hauled directly with a belay device in place to lock off. From there the girl could walk off.

I realize of course that no one at the time knew how things would turn out.
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 04:51 PM

One more small point to consider in the rescue scenario, Kent - as we all know, the belayer on top a) can't hear, but b) knows something's wrong. So he's pulling as hard as he can. As soon as you release tension from her own tie-in, the belayer up top may well mistake it for progress, and haul in the slack as hard as he can .... thus perpetuating the problem.

Of course, once you've hauled her back onto the rock, she could hypothetically just continue on her way (unless you've done something like cut the rope).
Posted by: Kent

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 05:52 PM

Julie, continuing on into fantasy land, one could put a friction knot on the rope to keep the leader from pulling up any slack put into the system.

The only rescue scenario I can think of which would require use of a knife is if the patient is wrapped up in cordage of some kind, especially if said wrapping presents an immediate medical problem, like a rope wrapped around someone's neck for example. When I was climbing a lot, I used to carry a small plastic hook knife for this possibility but fortunately never used it for anything other than cutting misc. anchor debris from the cliff.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 06:21 PM

 Originally Posted By: Julie
As soon as you release tension from her own tie-in, the belayer up top may well mistake it for progress, and haul in the slack as hard as he can .... thus perpetuating the problem.


Nope. Because he's hauling on the guy in the middle.

GO
Posted by: quanto_the_mad

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 06:38 PM

Maybe not. From the first report we assumed two people were tied in close together. But if we assume the 2nd person was the leader of the 2nd party, then there might not be anyone tied in above the hanging climber.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 07:08 PM

Well, so far the only witness accounts have come from a party on Modern Times, and from there, they wouldn't have been able to see who was on the headwall of HE. So you're right, they may well have gotten that detail wrong.

I'm simply assuming that the story is correct in its essentials until I get more/better info.

GO
Posted by: wombat

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 07:18 PM

 Originally Posted By: Smike
I think the Monday morning Quarter backing is almost as entertaining as the original story of the Vertical Limit ala Joe Simpson style.


i would suggest a slight twist to this post. many of the suggestions, based as they are on incomplete or erroneous information, are as inane as the apparent rescue efforts.

there are a number of ways that any one of us could have played this out and many of them would have been better. i certainly hope that my theoretical solution to an unknown problem would be a good one. my favorite part of this isnt the knife work, its the use of a sling rather than some of the hundreds of feet of rope available to the rescuers. could have made a sweet bungy jump for her - then we really could have had some screaming!
Posted by: EMan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 08:23 PM

Ok kids. It was me, Eric Weigeshoff, telling the story at the party. I was climbing Modern Times with Rod Schnier. We saw this start to happen while we climbed to the top from the GT. This is the story from the horse's mouth: NOTE! If I had have known what was truly going on, I would have intervened.

I was leading Modern Times to the GT. I was watching a fairly inexperienced team climbing High E. (Call them Team B) Team B's leader had set up a hanging belay about 8 feet under the GT ledge, I don't know why, and was bringing up his two followers from there. At that time, there were two people from another team (Team A) who were on the High E ledge. Leader was already at the top.

I then reached GT, and brought Rod up, who started to lead to top.

I noticed the 2nd of Team A starting to climb way to the right of the actual start to the last pitch of High E, and was struggling. I, of course, heckled. As he just about was to the crux, the third started climbing. I realized that she was tied into the same rope. Naturally, I heckled and took a picture of the imbeciles.

Rod was about on the top by now, when girl from Team A started screaming bloody murder. Can't do it, no holds, etc. Rod tops out, where he apparently encounters leader of Team A, not on top ledge where you would normally belay, but on the grassy top. He is lounging. Rod informs him that his girlfriend is going to be pissed. He says it's his sister. He sets up a z pulley, locks them off, and raps to the large ledge on top to observe.

At this time, I reach top, and heckle the guy, call him an idiot (I'm having a bad day) and Rod and I proceed to rap. Rod raps to the second station, I follow. As we are sitting at the second station, pulling our rope, I see Dan Ling reaching the ledge from Doubleissima. I also notice Team A girl hanging at lip, screaming.

I notice she has a sling on her, and Team B has apparently climbed up to her and built an anchor under the roof. At this point, Rod asks if we should go up to help, and I see her swinging back and forth, being pulled by Team B, who is anchored under the lip. We then hear:

1... 2... 3! The rope snaps, and she factor 2's onto the anchor that Team B built. I turn to Rod and say (Freaked out) "Did she just cut the rope?" Rod says, "She cut the rope!" This is repeated around 20 times by us both.

We rap to the ground, where team A's second proceeds to drop a #1 Camalot and a sling on me, just missing me, with the call, "Heads up, yo".

We leave, not wanting to clean up any mess that may ensue.

This is the actual story. No embellishment.

Eric Weigeshoff
Posted by: EMan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 08:25 PM

Oh, BTW. This entire incident could have been avoided if the leader of Team A:

LOWERED THEM TO THE LEDGE

Team B thought it was a better idea to cut the rope than to have them lowered.
Posted by: EMan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 08:33 PM

Also, there was no party of 5. There was the original 3 (Team A) 3 from Team B, Tim (Who owns Bubba) was part of a party of 3 on Directissima who had not reached the ledge, and Dan Ling on Doubleissima, with his partner on the ground.

She was hanging off the second, who was hanging off the leader. The second could communicate with the leader, and asked him to lower them both, had he brains, which, apparently, he didn't.
Posted by: wombat

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 08:39 PM

Eric - thanks. you HAVE to post the pictures! I would love the hear from Dan since she must have almost landed on him.

Great stuff - i always prefer to fall directly onto an anchor attached only by a sling. that must have felt super. i assume team A had people anchored into said anchor under the roof as backup?

so glad that i didnt climb until monday afternoon and then only had to deal with chain smokers, a girl ditching off the start of Drunkards (unharmed fortunately) and some guy taking repeated 20 footers off some roof just to the south of drunkards (he got it on the 4th try so high marks for effort). gotta love memorial day.
Posted by: chip

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 08:40 PM

Browndog had mentioned some commotion on the ledge. Sounds like he didn't appreciate the highbrow story potential. Sure glad everyone is OK.
Posted by: ShakesALot

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 08:43 PM

 Originally Posted By: EMan


Naturally, I heckled and took a picture of the imbeciles.

...

We leave, not wanting to clean up any mess that may ensue.

This is the actual story. No embellishment.

Eric Weigeshoff


Too funny! Please post any and all pictures, black out the faces if you have to.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 08:57 PM

Holy shit...

Thanks for the update.

GO
Posted by: EMan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 09:04 PM

Posted by: EMan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 09:07 PM

Don't know why it posted 5 times... there's only one picture. Notice how closely the two are tied in together. And, there was no true "Cowtail", i.e. - she was hanging directly off his harness.

I don't have pictures of the actual cutting of the rope. Perhaps someone would go up and re-create for the cameras?

E
Posted by: Smike

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 09:08 PM

AWESOME!!!!

Not only Eric...has your insight made the story more...well... clear, but even BETTER (plus adding a Browndog sighting as well)..holy shitsticks \:o
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 09:15 PM

(speechless)
(speechless)

So what I saw, was the guy in the red shirt, to her right as she was hanging, and he must have built an anchor. But, webbing? Webbing? And, party A's leader could rig a Z pulley but couldn't lower them?

(speechless)

ps - thanks, Eric. Much appreciated.
Posted by: EMan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 09:17 PM

" " Speechless, indeed.
Posted by: Dan0930

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 09:22 PM

As the person climbing under said screaming train wreck I can attest to the fact that E's story is 100% true. I only caught glimpes of the fiasco as I was leading up but really wasn't paying enough attention to comprehend what was going on otherwise I would have stepped in. I saw the rope cutting incident unfold but didn't really understand what was happening until it was over. I assumed that party B was simply pulling her back on the climb which was a dumb solution but no where near as dumb as what really happened.

Again everything E said is true no embellishments, not that any are really required
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 09:25 PM

what the hell is going on in that picture? oy vay.

did she factor two onto the sling, or did she hit the ledge before the sling could grab her?
Posted by: EMan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 09:27 PM

That picture is as they were climbing up to the incident, before it happened. Team B had built an anchor underneath the roof, right before the crux, which she fell onto. She did NOT fall onto the GT.
Posted by: crackers

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 09:30 PM

zowie. Party "a" walked down next us on the talus, and I heard the girl say something about cutting ropes, but i was sure I couldn't have heard that right...

Excellent picture!

how surreal.
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 09:39 PM

that's it. from now on i do all my climbing at the bank.
Posted by: mikeharo

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 10:32 PM

Does anyone have a physical description of the leader of the party of 3?
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/28/08 11:28 PM

Umm... haro... why don't you just call your buddy and ask if it was him?
Posted by: Smike

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 12:02 AM

Dammit...all the times I've sat on the little perch right of High E and captured some near epics on film.(um Aya around? ;\)
).. but this...
Posted by: EMan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 01:09 AM

They appeared to be Cadets, but they were not. Leader: Blonde, short hair, almost crew cut, mid 20s.
Posted by: empicard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 02:52 AM

1. holy flirking shnit.
2. looks like the same picture 3 times?
3. the climber that got stuck, that factor 2d, were they the only person on said anchor? or were other people on it as well?
4. how do you know they werent cadets, if you only heckled them from a distance, and never spoke to them directly?
Posted by: EMan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 12:01 PM

1. Yes
2. Yes. Picture loaded 5 times, don't know why.
3. 2 people from Team B were on said anchor, and the girl then factor 2'd onto it as they pulled her in and she cut the rope.
4. Rod spoke to the guy on top, and I got a good look at him from about 5 feet. Too old to be a cadet. And, Dawes, Ned and Sue would never train Cadets to act like that.
Posted by: empicard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 12:04 PM

Yea, good point. The few times I met Ned he had his sh!t together.
Posted by: alicex4

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 12:05 PM

man-o-manishevitz!
Posted by: learningtolead

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 01:16 PM

so what happened after she fell onto the lower anchor while only attached by a sling? how'd they get her to the GT at that point and get her over to the rappel station?
Posted by: quanto_the_mad

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 01:20 PM

Cripes. Sorry we doubted, it was hard to believe they'd do something that incredibly stupid.

I wonder if this girl knows how close she came to dying?
Posted by: Fraser

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 01:29 PM

I think I am going to climb indoors from now on - it's much safer.

Seriously though, this sort of behavior is going to have an impact on access issues that we can't even imagine.

There's been a lot of criticism of the parties, but it's mostly ignorance (benefit of doubt) and not on purpose. Maybe we (and we've been thinking about this for about 2 seconds) should have more of an outreach or education program for first time climbers.

On another note, I fell around the same place and remember twisting in space nowhere near the GT ledge for a while. I was eventually successfully lowered to the GT ledge!!! Then there was that time on Moonlight, but that is another story!

Peace.
Posted by: Terrie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 02:29 PM

Moonlight....Oh yeah. Now there's a walking the plank situation I'll never forget! I was sooooo sceeered. And SO relieved when I made it. And SO pissed when the climbing upwards was hard(for me at the time)!

Good times.

Outreach program for new climbers - It's a nice idea, and you know, if I had a climbing gym, I'd see this as an opportunity to do just that. But it's a 'you lead a horse to water but can't make him drink' thing. People don't want to pay for competant teaching when their boyfriend or buddy who started a year or less ago confidently tells them they can teach them all they need to know.

The Mohonk Preserve DOES run those beginner workshops during the New Paltz film festival, and I think they are even free, aren't they?

Maybe it would be a project for someone looking for a new lot in life to create a NFP entity that offered such workshops at popular crags at season's start...... Worthy, for sure. But a pretty big effort involved.

It's also an interesting note that whenever the self-rescue stuff is offered,whether it's for free or part of a paid weekend workshop with other options, that self-rescue is sparsely attended.
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 05:18 PM

Taking a factor-two fall, if that's what it really was, on sling material will produce forces around 18 kN. This can break some gear and can also break some climbers. She's lucky to walk away with her spine intact---well, lucky to walk away period.

As for self-rescue knowledge, most self-rescue methods are complicated, require excellent judgement and rope-handling experience, and are often not particularly applicable to real situations in the field. My guess is that the minimal training typically provided would only have given the party in question multiple new and elaborate ways to do something incomprehensibly stupid and dangerous.
Posted by: Bolt_Skytop

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 05:29 PM

Nice I love this story. Can I get a high resolution copy of that picture I want to put it as my desktop.
I screamed like a little bitch when I fell off modern times. Then my partner lowered me. No knives, no six person f-ed up rescue, just lowered.
Its not as if complex rescue skills were required to lower this girl. Scary stuff.
Reminds me of that dude I saw deck off of running man last year. His first time outside and he hops on an 11. You can imagine how well that worked. I can't believe more people don't die.
Posted by: empicard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 05:39 PM

My spine and kidneys are fine after learning to place gear thusly:

set up TR
climb up
place gear
clip girth hitched runner to piece
slack in TR
jump (and yes, some jumps were from above the gear - one whopper was on a 4 foot sling)

basically a severe bounce test.


yea, i know, WOW. stoopid, right? not a single piece pulled. not a single drop of blood in my pee.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 05:45 PM

 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
Taking a factor-two fall, if that's what it really was, on sling material will produce forces around 18 kN. This can break some gear and can also break some climbers. She's lucky to walk away with her spine intact---well, lucky to walk away period.


My guess is that it was a swinging fall and she mostly landed on the slab there. Otherwise, as you suggest, she would likely be more injured.

 Quote:
As for self-rescue knowledge, most self-rescue methods are complicated, require excellent judgement and rope-handling experience, and are often not particularly applicable to real situations in the field. My guess is that the minimal training typically provided would only have given the party in question multiple new and elaborate ways to do something incomprehensibly stupid and dangerous.


I have to respectfully disagree. All you need to know is:

1 - how to set a safe anchor in that face.
2 - How to create an extended rap, with two "arms" (attach yourself to one.)
3 - How to attach an autoblock under your brake strand so you can have both hands free when you get to her.

Then it would have been trivial to rap down to her, attach her to the other arm of the extended rap, and pluck her off. If one couldn't find a way to unweight her rope sufficiently to untie her from it (which really shouldn't be hard, but let's assume it's harder than I think), then that's the time to cut the rope.

What about the above is beyond most parties? Or if I'm neglecting to think of something that would likely get me in trouble, what is that?

GO
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 05:50 PM

FWIW, between the position of the red-shirt guy that I saw and the description, it sounds like the anchor* that caught her was approximately even with her. Fall factor ~1, which is rough enough roped, let alone on static material.

*Someone on rc.com also pointed this out, but the anchor built probably utilized the flaring crack deep behind & under The Move - a 3 or 3.5 Camalot? And since Team B likely didn't have multiples in that size, and (also betting from the position of the guy I saw, who was at The Move) pieces at The Move itself. Not likely to have been a wonderful anchor, considering the judgement of the person building it - the knife-supplier.

Edit to add: Gabe, what if the leader of Team B was worried about his own ability to pull The Move, with or without a rope & screaming person in his way? Him falling or hanging there might complicate things.
Posted by: Terrie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 05:51 PM

Or, had she learned how to ascend a rope, she could have gotten herself back on the rock and went on her merry way.

Why aren't people interested in this stuff when they start climbing? Seems like so many just want to just get on as hard a route as they can muster, not even mattering if they get up it without falling.
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 06:09 PM

 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
As for self-rescue knowledge, most self-rescue methods are complicated, require excellent judgement and rope-handling experience, and are often not particularly applicable to real situations in the field. My guess is that the minimal training typically provided would only have given the party in question multiple new and elaborate ways to do something incomprehensibly stupid and dangerous.


 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
I have to respectfully disagree. All you need to know is:

<A minimal selection of techniques>

Then it would have been trivial to

<a simple procedure>

What about the above is beyond most parties? Or if I'm neglecting to think of something that would likely get me in trouble, what is that?


I have to respectfully disagree with the disagreerer, who has both the knowledge of various possibilities and the judgement to select a potentially effective one. This was a party that didn't have enough sense to lower a hanging climber and instead and exposed her to a very high-risk procedure. I have no confidence that arming them with more knowledge would have produced anything more than a more bizarre "solution."
Posted by: dalguard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 07:46 PM

I just don't understand why you wouldn't build an anchor *above* her. Why below her or even to the side of her? If you can climb to that point and can build an anchor and intend to cut the rope, why would you not be above her with all slack out of the system?
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 08:41 PM

Julie - if the leader from team B was hanging out at the move (I think that's where you describe him as being), trying to coach the hanging girl, then surely he had the ability to climb 10 more feet up and over.

Terrie - I couldn't agree with you more. I think there's something of a gender disparity that sometimes comes into play, too, whereby beginning women climbers seem to rely on their male partners more than they should. I would not say this is the case with the majority of women, or even necessarily the majority of women who climb with their male partners, but it happens enough to be noticeable as a trend. And, too, men may encourage this by acting the part of the all-knowing, strong, competent, yadda yadda. But then this subject is meaty enough for a whole separate thread.

RG - I take your point. While you're probably right, I wouldn't discount what knowledge might do for them. I'd like to think that the poor decisions they made were made mostly out of ignorance.

For example - if we were to describe the scenario, without any judgement, to a non-climber, they might think "Okay - I guess that's just how rescues work. It worked, so they did it right."

What is the layman missing? Two things: 1 - An understanding about forces involved in belayed rope falls versus falls directly on static materials. And 2 - A working knowledge about viable techniques and practices.

If we assume that party B had just enough knowledge to get up a climb more or less safely, but about as much technical knowledge as the layman (a sad state of affairs, no doubt) then their only true fault was having the hubris to think that they knew enough to carry out the rescue.

GO
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 09:00 PM

 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
Julie - if the leader from team B was hanging out at the move (I think that's where you describe him as being), trying to coach the hanging girl, then surely he had the ability to climb 10 more feet up and over.


Sure, but this is a guy who handed a screaming, hanging girl a knife. I don't have so much confidence in his abilities or judgments.
Posted by: Hooker02

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 09:10 PM

To much speculation on what took place on the GT ledge. Original assumptions about the improper use of BD guide or reverso were proved wrong by witness. Lets say that with the leader back on the grass (the grassy knoll at this point) belaying (90'-100'rope out) you had enough rope stretch to get an anchor above the screamer (assuming she peter paned at the "move")without going on the head wall. I have to believe the webbing was used just to reel her in and the party on the ledge used another rope to secure her.

Counting 1,2,3 is a tactic for getting someone to do something that makes no sense. Like jumping out of a plane etc.

I could be wrong.
Posted by: jdw

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 09:58 PM

There really is no need complicated solutions like building an anchor above her on the face, setting up 5:1 raising systems, double rappels, etc.

Solution - Get to the top. Smash the leader in the head with a rock (after disparaging him). Take over the belay and lower.

JDW
Posted by: learningtolead

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/29/08 11:31 PM

 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
I think there's something of a gender disparity that sometimes comes into play, too, whereby beginning women climbers seem to rely on their male partners more than they should. I would not say this is the case with the majority of women, or even necessarily the majority of women who climb with their male partners, but it happens enough to be noticeable as a trend. And, too, men may encourage this by acting the part of the all-knowing, strong, competent, yadda yadda. But then this subject is meaty enough for a whole separate thread.

GO


I think this is an unfair and untrue generalization. To what similar group of newbie men are you comparing this group of women to? I think many, many newish climbers tend to simply rely on their more knowledgable partners. There may be somewhat more women than men that choose not to learn to lead but even that is a generalization that may be more perception than reality.
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 12:06 AM

After the evidence presented in this thread: to wit, beginning girl is dragged onto High E by the incompetent male leader of Team A (not to be confused with the A Team), then "rescued" by the equally incompetent male leadership of Team B, any hint of chauvinism is entirely inappropriate. I'm ashamed of my gender. We do the stupidest shit when women are around.

Perhaps especially when the woman in question is screaming and/or crying, but that's another story. But I see where Gabe is coming from; it's frustrating when a partner (male or female) either starts crying or losing their cool in some other more dangerous, overconfident/reckless way. If people--male or female--could just keep a level head... each gender, perhaps, loses their head in different ways.
Posted by: Terrie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 02:36 AM

I see a lot of women climbing who seem to let the guys give them play by play directions, but I think often those are girlfriends that are there for those guys, and not women who are climbers and happen to be climbing with their guys.

As well, I just don't see that many guys who drag their non-climbing male friends along and have to do things like....teach them how to belay while they are 30 feet off deck.... It seems they tend to spontaneously decide to take up climbing en mass and NONE of them have a clue! hahahah
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 03:08 AM

 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
All you need to know is:

1 - how to set a safe anchor in that face.
2 - How to create an extended rap, with two "arms" (attach yourself to one.)
3 - How to attach an autoblock under your brake strand so you can have both hands free when you get to her.

Then it would have been trivial to rap down to her, attach her to the other arm of the extended rap, and pluck her off. If one couldn't find a way to unweight her rope sufficiently to untie her from it (which really shouldn't be hard, but let's assume it's harder than I think), then that's the time to cut the rope.

GO


There's the rub, precisely. If a climber is hanging free on a rope from above, you can't simple "pluck her off". And I totally reject that cutting the rope is necessary or advisable even in that situation.

This is exactly why self rescue is often not simple. Though certainly one might miss that message, based on all the two page pamphlets, Tech Tips articles, and 60 minute clinics out there that claim to provide you what you need to know. IMO it takes LOTS and LOTS of practice even once you know what the elements are. Some folks can learn the elements from a book, others need to be shown. But it's always eye-opening to set up a "problem" on a climb and see what you - or your partner - can come up with. Example - next time you fall following an upper pitch, just hang on the rope and see if your partner can haul you up 8 feet, or tie you off and rap down to you. DISCLAIMER - this exercise can also get you killed if your partner F's up!

Another fun example - you're TRing something with your belayer at the bottom. Up high on the pitch, lie out flat on a ledge like you've been knocked out by a rock. See what they can do. You're lying on a ledge so lowering your limp carcass isn't feasible. I imagine you could set this up on Friends & Lovers.

PS - no knives!
Posted by: Coppertone

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 03:38 AM

 Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon

Another fun example - you're TRing something with your belayer at the bottom. Up high on the pitch, lie out flat on a ledge like you've been knocked out by a rock. See what they can do. You're lying on a ledge so lowering your limp carcass isn't feasible. I imagine you could set this up on Friends & Lovers.

PS - no knives!


Where are you going to lie flat on a ledge on Friend and Lovers? The only ledge to lie on is after the anchor and after the climb is over, unless you are talking about the small ledge at mid height which is too small to lie on.

If I was lying on a ledge my parter would probably cut the rope and go for a beer.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 03:49 AM

 Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Example - next time you fall following an upper pitch, just hang on the rope and see if your partner can haul you up 8 feet, or tie you off and rap down to you. DISCLAIMER - this exercise can also get you killed if your partner F's up!


If that happened to my partner, I'd be able to do either. But both are more complicated (involving several transitions) than the example we have here, in which you have your own competent (presumably) belayer and lead climber, entirely separate from the disabled climber.

 Quote:
Another fun example - you're TRing something with your belayer at the bottom. Up high on the pitch, lie out flat on a ledge like you've been knocked out by a rock. See what they can do. You're lying on a ledge so lowering your limp carcass isn't feasible. I imagine you could set this up on Friends & Lovers.

PS - no knives!


You're saying the leader is disabled, or the belayer? If the leader is disabled, it's not a fun situation, and there are no super-great solutions. But there are certainly things you can do to lower the risk a little as you ascend the rope to reach them.

Now this is way, way more nasty a situation than the one we're talking about. If anything, you've proved my point, that as rescue situations go, this one should have been a relative no-brainer.

GO
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 10:01 AM

 Originally Posted By: GOclimb

Now this is way, way more nasty a situation than the one we're talking about. If anything, you've proved my point, that as rescue situations go, this one should have been a relative no-brainer.

GO


Agreed. I was offering up a couple exercises to challenge folks. The High E team isn't ready for such advanced practice yet; they failed Multipitch 101.

Copper - I couldn't remember if that ledge alcove is big enough to lie on. OK, How about Maria Redirect? Big ledge above the hard part. Stage a mock collapse there. Belayer has to go up and help out, then tandem rap. Fairly straightforward as SR scenarios go...right?
Posted by: mikeharo

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 01:09 PM

I realize that we are making generalizations but let me give you some perspective. My girlfriend and climbing partner took courses on her own, without me present, to learn. Then we went together and practiced. What did we practice? Everything. She only asked one question: I understand how this works and can repeat it perfectly but what happens when it hits the fan? How do I fix this if this whole thing goes south? That forced me to think about all possible situations and how I would work it out and then, more importantly, forced me to know what to do so well that I could then teach her. She can get herself and me out of anything and we are completely confident in each other's abilities. The team on High E? Perhaps a slightly different story. Flame and generalize away folks, just want to chime in for the (younger, 22) climbers who made sure to learn everything possible....and continue to analyze and think about situations.
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 01:10 PM

I don't want make generalizations of nooBs and gender, but I do have to point out what REALLY bothers me about the HighE situation.

I originally posted a bet that the leader was buried back in the trees with a locked-down autoblock. I was wrong. I'm really, genuinely disturbed, kept up at night about that - not the ego trip of being wrong, but what it means.

We knew the leader didn't lower the dangling screamer. My original bet was the incompetence scenario - which is bad enough, but understandable, and ultimately forgiveable.

But according to EMan, the guy rigged a Z pulley and rapped. This indicates that he was not incompetent, and somewhat versed in rope technique. Thus: he chose to not lower. He rapped. To what - watch? Heckle? Rub it in? Whap?

The idea that he CHOSE not to lower her - to instead, terrorize her, leave her to the unknown bumblings of Party B, and ultimately put her life in danger - willingly? That's wandering into psychotic, control-freak, abusive, and criminal.

I'd really like to be wrong here.



Posted by: Timbo

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 02:02 PM

 Originally Posted By: Julie
But according to EMan, the guy rigged a Z pulley and rapped. This indicates that he was not incompetent, and somewhat versed in rope technique. Thus: he chose to not lower. He rapped. To what - watch? Heckle? Rub it in? Whap?


Is it possible he rigged a Z-pulley and rapped to the usual belay spot to get a better look with the intention of pulling both climbers up, then realized his pulley did not provide enough of a mechanical advantage for that ?

Perhaps he though he could not lower them onto the ledge (i.e. they would only dangle in space, not reaching the ledge but passing it).

Trying to give the benefit of the doubt here. OTOH, the guy did choose to lead a noob up this climb using a totally inappropriate method so his leadership ability is already in question.

TS
Posted by: timh

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 02:56 PM

 Quote:
....the guy in the middle


Speaking of the guy in the middle, how did he manage to extricate himself from this fiasco?
Posted by: retr2327

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 03:47 PM

"OTOH, the guy did choose to lead a noob up this climb using a totally inappropriate method so his leadership ability is already in question"

Seems to me this aspect of the situation has not received the attention it deserves. It's all very well to discuss advanced techniques for getting out of f'ed up situations, but it's probably a better idea to avoid them in the first instance, using a few basic principles.

1) if you have any doubt about the ability of your second to cope with the technical/strength challenges of the climb, avoid overhanging climbs where you can't see each other or communicate.

2) if you have any doubt about the ability of your second to cope with the technical/strength challenges of the climb, DON'T FREAKING BELAY TWO SUCH PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME. WHAT ARE YOU, NUTS?

3) above all, don't violate principles 1 and 2 at the same time.

4) finally, if despite the above, you manage to violate all three of these principles and find yourself stuck in some situation like this one, don't jump blindly into the first possible rescue situation that presents itself. Unless you're high in the mountains, with nightfall and a storm coming on, you've got time. Think about your possible choices. Then do it again, some more. There's no way you should end up cutting the rope within the first hour (or two) unless death is imminent otherwise.

Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 03:51 PM

 Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
 Originally Posted By: GOclimb

Now this is way, way more nasty a situation than the one we're talking about. If anything, you've proved my point, that as rescue situations go, this one should have been a relative no-brainer.

GO


Agreed. I was offering up a couple exercises to challenge folks. The High E team isn't ready for such advanced practice yet; they failed Multipitch 101.


Well okay, then. To answer your question with the fallen leader at a ledge... Frankly, if this were at the Gunks, the first thing I would do is call for help. I know enough about self rescue to know that ascending to a fallen leader has risks in it that cannot be reduced sufficiently to make it worth it if there are better options. I like to be self reliant, but that only goes so far.

Were it somewhere in the wilderness where help would be a long time coming, I'd prussic up the rope, tying knots behind me, until I got to the fallen climber, at which point I'd create an anchor, and do whatever I could for the leader (I only know basic first aid, so that wouldn't be much) and then decide what to do next (most likely rappel with my partner).

Of course, at any point, as I'm ascending, if the top piece blows I'm going to fall the distance between it and the next lowest piece, and rely on the prussics to catch me. Not a good scene (thus the backup knots). Furthermore, as I climb, I have to remove the gear as I go by it, so I'm relying on less and less gear as I go. Of course, if the gear above the fallen climber is minimal or suspect, I can leave some of the gear in and hitch it to the rope as I go by it (great - factor 2 on a prussic!).

Now see why I'd gladly swallow my pride if there were other folks around?

GO
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 03:58 PM

 Originally Posted By: retr2327

2) if you have any doubt about the ability of your second to cope with the technical/strength challenges of the climb, DON'T FREAKING BELAY TWO SUCH PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME. WHAT ARE YOU, NUTS?


I'm relatively sure that the last pitch is short enough that with a 60m rope, the middle person could have tied in to the middle of the rope, and the girl could have tied into the end. Y'know - in case they only had one rope, for some reason. Then poor Mr Middle would have been off the rope by the time the girl fell.

And I agree with Julie - it's horrendous to think that the leader just left her dangling her there *on purpose* if he could have just lowered her.

GO
Posted by: retr2327

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 04:16 PM

"I'm relatively sure that the last pitch is short enough that with a 60m rope, the middle person could have tied in to the middle of the rope, and the girl could have tied into the end."

I think you're right about that, and it would have been an improvement if so. But -- and it's a big but -- how likely is it that the leader (especially this one) would know for sure? If it's not long enough, you end up with the same mess. Arguably even worse, because neither of the upper two could then communicate with the girl left on the ledge.

Better to review principle 1, and choose a different route. I realize High E is a great climb, but if you're not willing to tailor your lead choices to suit the needs of your second(s), you have no business leading.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 05:04 PM

 Originally Posted By: retr2327

But -- and it's a big but -- how likely is it that the leader (especially this one) would know for sure?


Real easy - If leader finishes the pitch before mid-rope passes through belayer's device, then second ties into the middle. If leader pulls up slack and doesn't get to mid-rope before "that's me", then he knows they're climbing together, otherwise at middle and end.
Posted by: phlan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 05:57 PM

the leader should not have been sitting on the grass on the top there's chiggers in there
Posted by: talus

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 06:35 PM

 Originally Posted By: EMan
Perhaps someone would go up and re-create for the cameras?


yes strat could be the insensitive leader and smike would be the screaming girl
Posted by: retr2327

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 06:43 PM

"Real easy - If leader finishes the pitch before mid-rope passes through belayer's device, then second ties into the middle. If leader pulls up slack and doesn't get to mid-rope before "that's me", then he knows they're climbing together, otherwise at middle and end."

So, let's see . . . . you'll give it a shot and see what happens, and if the rope is too short, you'll end up in the same situation that the party on High E had?

No thanks.
Posted by: Mark Heyman

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/30/08 08:41 PM

It might be they only had one rope to use, but the two lower climbers also might have been positioned together precisely so that one could encourage and/or help the other.

This might be OK on a much easier climb, with the more competent climber the lower climber. High E overhangs to far for climbers to help one another, and the move in particular is not a place where help is easily afforded.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/31/08 12:10 AM

 Originally Posted By: retr2327
"Real easy - If leader finishes the pitch before mid-rope passes through belayer's device, then second ties into the middle. If leader pulls up slack and doesn't get to mid-rope before "that's me", then he knows they're climbing together, otherwise at middle and end."

So, let's see . . . . you'll give it a shot and see what happens, and if the rope is too short, you'll end up in the same situation that the party on High E had?

No thanks.


I am not for a second suggesting anyone should tackle a challenging route with too few ropes. I agree with that part of your post.

I just figured I'd throw $0.02 in on your comment (quoted in my last post) that said a leader has no way of knowing if their rope is long enough for 3-on-a-rope multi-pitching. Obviously, when it isn't long enough, and/or the party is collectively under-qualified to be there, then it's a BAD IDEA. I think under the vast majority of situations, a 60m rope would be long enough to put the second in the middle on that pitch. But we don't know if this party had Uncle Buford's 45m rope that he brought back from the Tetons in 1978. One thing we do know - it's a bit shorter now!
Posted by: Smike

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/31/08 03:03 AM

 Originally Posted By: talus
 Originally Posted By: EMan
Perhaps someone would go up and re-create for the cameras?


yes strat could be the insensitive leader and smike would be the screaming girl


Excellent, and you could be the asshat behind the camera, or the one passing out the knives.
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/31/08 05:58 AM

 Originally Posted By: EMan
...He sets up a z-pulley, locks them off, and raps to the large ledge on top to observe.


 Originally Posted By: Julie
But according to EMan, the guy rigged a Z pulley and rapped. This indicates that he was not incompetent, and somewhat versed in rope technique.


 Originally Posted By: Timbo
Is it possible he rigged a Z-pulley and rapped to the usual belay spot to get a better look with the intention of pulling both climbers up, then realized his pulley did not provide enough of a mechanical advantage for that ?


Well, first of all, this pretty much makes my point (echoed by Mike) that a little self-rescue knowledge is not going to get idiots out of trouble. If the account is true, then it is, in a twisted way, hilarious, because you can't leave a z-pulley unattended, there are two friction knots that need to be repositioned every cycle. "Setting up a z-pulley" and then rapping away from it is totally pointless, the z-pulley can't be used by remote control.

Moreover, Timbo's point about friction is almost certainly true. I suspect that in real situations it almost always overwhelms any mechanical advantage a z-pulley can provide. First of all, without any rock friction at all, carabiner friction in the z-pulley rigging itself reduces the mechanical advantage to 2:1. And that is for the standard z-pulley for which the force is applied from above. If you get below the pulley as the leader is supposed to have done and redirect the pulling strand down by running it through a directional biner, you're down to about (1.5):1 without any rock friction. (If you instead rig a "Spanish Burton," you do a little better, but still under 2:1 after biner friction.)

Now let the rope make one fairly sharp bend over an edge (not to mention running down a face and snaking through the various protection points the leader hung on on the way up) and you have no mechanical advantage at all, in fact you are probably in the realm of "mechanical disadvantage," meaning that plain old hauling without any pulleys would be better. A delightful extra benefit is that even though you have no mechanical advantage, you still pay the raising penalty imposed by your system---raising distance is 1/3 of the amount of rope pulled up at each cycle.

If you want a real 3:1 mechanical advantage, you'll have to build a 5:1 compound system, which is going to require some extra sling material and a lot more know-how. Of course, you pay a 5:1 raising penalty for this, and rock friction can still have an overwhelming effect.

Improvised pulley raising is an absolute last resort when there is no other good option available, and even then it may fail unless rope friction against rock and through biners is minimal. Forgetting about the rapping part, building a z-pulley up in the woods is never going to raise a climber hanging way below on High E. The very act of building it illustrates my point about a small amount of knowledge providing nothing more than a new context for incompetence.
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/31/08 03:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: Julie
But according to EMan, the guy rigged a Z pulley and rapped. This indicates that he was not incompetent, and somewhat versed in rope technique. Thus: he chose to not lower.

 Originally Posted By: Timbo
Is it possible he rigged a Z-pulley and rapped to the usual belay spot to get a better look with the intention of pulling both climbers up, then realized his pulley did not provide enough of a mechanical advantage for that ?


Entirely possible - as RG detailed, and anyone who's built a pulley even just for practice has found out - friction is a major downside to a pulley made of 'biners and cord and running over rock.

My point still remains. The evidence says: a) he had enough rope technique, and b) he was not lost back in the woods incommunicado. So where was his input to and leadership of this situation?

Even as far as having enough rope goes: with the rope skills he apparently has, he should have known that he had enough to lower them; and again, the evidence says the communication was quite possible. Getting them back to the GT was, even with some swinging involved and help from the other party, by far the best and first and easiest option.

He could have, and well should have, lowered them.

I'd have some sympathy for a clueless chump back in the woods stuck next to a locked autoblock; but I'm running out of ways not to blame this guy in a quite serious way. The thing is - we can focus on blaming the clueless leader of Party B for handing her a knife and setting up a high impact fall; but in the end he probably did the best he could in a stressful situation, and that's all you can really ask of anyone. The evidence sofar says that the leader of Party A did far less than the best he could; that indeed, he left them up to the bumblings of Party B, rather than just lowering them!

I'd like to hear more from Eman about what the communication was with this guy, both between him and Eman, and between him and the dangling victims.
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/31/08 03:44 PM

CHIRP!
Posted by: fear

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/31/08 05:28 PM

Even a bigger argument for those teeny radios. I've been using a $20/set now for 4 years and they still kinda work. Makes life sooooo much easier in tricky situations......
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/31/08 07:03 PM

Julie, RG, et al.

One possibility is that the purpose of the z pulley was simply to try to unblock his device, which with friction and two people hanging on it, would be extremely difficult. Frankly, with a Reverso lying on the ground under a tree, I'm not sure I'd be *able* to unblock it without several strong people helping. Those Reversos can be a real pain. Have you ever played with trying to unblock a Reverso with the full weight of a climber on it and some friction? In one self-rescue class I took, at the end, the instructors had people practice in real-life situations (backed up by a belay) with the device they typically each use when climbing. Some of those who used Reversos were completely unable to unblock them using anything they could think of, and literally jumping up and down on the sling, until the instructors showed them how to rig up 5:1 pulleys to help. And that was without nearly as much friction as this guy would have had. Several people in the class decided to shelve their Reversos after that day! The ATC guides seem a little easier to unblock.

Anyway, my point is that it may well be that the whole hauling scenario is a red herring and that he really *was* trying to lower the party, but was unable to.

GO
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/31/08 07:08 PM

Oh my fucking God! shut the hell up people! just SHUT THE HELL UP!!!! Damn losers...don't you have a lawn to mow, or dishes to wash, or something better than judging peoples actions when you don't even know the facts? Good God I want to vomit on all of you.

RR
Posted by: Coppertone

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 05/31/08 07:18 PM

 Originally Posted By: RangerRob
Good God I want to vomit on all of you.

RR


Sorry my 8 week old just beat you to it. Although I'll at the Gunks tomorrow if you want to give it a go.
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/01/08 12:26 AM

Hmmm...

Maybe RR was on the ledge? ;\)
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/01/08 12:57 AM

Well maybe so Gabe, who knows.

By the way, the guy has two people hanging so has to raise both of them plus friction. Fuhgettaboutit.

The totally jammed autolocking belay device (with two people on a single rope hanging off it) is a plausible scenario. Next time use a Munter, Sparky.

I'm not a fan of autolocking belay devices, so perhaps should not comment, but using such a device when someone might be hanging free in space seems like a bad idea. If you insist, you ought to be damn sure you can unlock the thing when it is fully loaded, and your second ought to be damn sure they know how to prussik when it turns out you can't unlock the loaded device---in spite of being damn sure.

Oh and Rob, forcing yourself to read threads that make you nauseous is bad for your esophogus. Best to retreat to a judgement-free zone rather than judging those you accuse of judging.
Posted by: cfrac

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/01/08 01:33 AM

A leader that created a situation like this most likely does not know how to rig a Z pulley system. With a wall hauler set up 1:1 a 170 pound person can lift a 100 lb haul bag, granted there's less friction with the pulley and you can't have the rope running over an edge like the top of High E, but for a single person you should be able to subtract enough of their weight to enable them to climb 5.6. With that said, if they are hanging in space or there are two people hanging on the rope (it just sounds do absurd!) then down is the only direction to go.
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/01/08 02:08 AM

cfrac... perhaps read the entire thread?

the leader DID rig a z-system...
Posted by: Mark Heyman

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/01/08 02:22 AM

I hadn't realized the middle was off the wall too. That would make him useless.
Posted by: cfrac

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/01/08 02:49 AM

 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
cfrac... perhaps read the entire thread?

the leader DID rig a z-system...

The way I read it a different party rigged the Z pulley. Sorry if I misunderstood the report.
Posted by: talus

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/01/08 12:59 PM

 Originally Posted By: Smike
 Originally Posted By: talus
 Originally Posted By: EMan
Perhaps someone would go up and re-create for the cameras?


yes strat could be the insensitive leader and smike would be the screaming girl


Excellent, and you could be the asshat behind the camera, or the one passing out the knives.


no that's a job for your gumby buddies the chirping ranger type
Posted by: retr2327

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/02/08 02:31 PM

"a small amount of knowledge providing nothing more than a new context for incompetence."

As usual, RG nails it.
Posted by: Tim

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 12:29 AM

I am very surprised how many people judged without having all the information. I was in the party of three on the ledge that rescued the girl. She was hanging over the roof and was on a path to total panic. She was dangling in thin air and could not climb over the roof. We tried to get the leader to lower her down to the ledge but there was no response. After several minutes we were not confident the leader could handle the situation at hand. Our lead climber ascended to the roof with our second rope and setup and anchor. He put the rope through the anchor, which was slightly above her waist. She was close enough to grab our rope and tie in using a figure 8 knot. Then I put on her on belay. With the rope tight her feet were about a foot or so from the cliff. Still we heard nothing from her leader. Therefore we suggested she cut the rope and when she did she landed softly on to the cliff as if on a top rope. Then I lowered to the ledge. We got her safely to the repel station and got her down to the ground safely.

The lesson here is not to have inexperienced climbers cowtailed together 15 feet apart on any climb, let alone one like HE. From the moment they started the climb we all thought they could easily get into trouble.
Posted by: fear

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 01:14 AM

Thanks for posting Tim,

I figured it wasn't as dramatic as some made it out to be....

Although if you're ever in a situation again like that with someone who's truly lost their minds(fear/panic, hypothermia, etc), it's better to do as much as you can for them like tying the knot and cutting the rope for her if at all possible. Wigged-out people can do really strange things...
Posted by: Smike

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 12:40 PM

Thanks for telling your side. I have to admit (just going by your words) that giving someone that was on a "path to total panic" a knife is pretty nuts, but that’s all Monday morning QB’ing.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 02:56 PM

Thanks for posting.

GO
Posted by: BrianRI

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 05:54 PM

 Originally Posted By: Tim
I am very surprised how many people judged without having all the information.


You are surprised by how many people judged without having all the information? Second guessing and Monday morning quarterbacking by people who were not there and do not have all (if any) of the facts is the standard operating procedure of climbing forums. You should be surprised if no one injected their uninformed coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Brian
Posted by: d-elvis

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 06:15 PM

I heard it was smike screaming like a little girl.... just saying \:o
Posted by: Smike

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 07:00 PM

Um hey d-bag, just be lucky no one had a knife when you were in the same spot ... ;\)
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 07:07 PM

Uh, I'm the D-bag! Not that "Elvis" character!
Posted by: Smike

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 07:34 PM

 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
Uh, I'm the D-bag! Not that "Elvis" character!


All depends on what the 'D' stands for douche....
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 09:31 PM

...what's the 'S' stand for?
Posted by: Smike

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 10:05 PM

 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
...what's the 'S' stand for?


STFU \:\/
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/03/08 10:34 PM

...so... it's Smike... or STFU MIKE! \:D
Posted by: EMan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/04/08 11:20 PM

Jeez... is this still going on?

There is only one person truly at fault: Leader of Team A

Team B's leader, while being an idiot, would not have had the chance to prove his idiocy if Team A's leader had simply lowered them. No stuck autoblock. No non-functioning 3-1 system. No bear between him and belay device. He chose not to lower them.

As for the middle of the rope/end of the rope discussion. If Team A's leader was onsighting, then he would have looked in the guidebook first, which tells you the final pitch is 70 feet long... enough for a 70m, 60m, or even 50m rope to middle/end it. If he had already been on it, he might have known that he could tie one person right into the middle, and another at the end. Note that I said "might" as he obviously did not have enough sense to do so.

So, again: Fault? Leader of Team A. Period.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/05/08 12:27 AM

 Originally Posted By: EMan


So, again: Fault? Leader of Team A. Period.


So why the name calling re. Team B??
Posted by: retr2327

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/05/08 03:47 PM

"As for the middle of the rope/end of the rope discussion. If Team A's leader was onsighting, then he would have looked in the guidebook first, which tells you the final pitch is 70 feet long... enough for a 70m, 60m, or even 50m rope to middle/end it."

I'm all in favor of consulting guide books for data. But I'd caution you (and anyone reading this) against relying on the supposed pitch lengths when deciding what length rope you need. As anyone who has climbed at Red Rocks can tell you, the information in the guide books can be way off. If the accuracy is "mission-critical," you'd better have a real good plan B in mind . . . .
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/05/08 04:28 PM

retr, this is not rocket science. belayer watches as the rope goes up. if middle has not passed by the time leader is on top, belayer ties in to middle of the rope at whatever point is hanging in front of him, without waiting for the leader to pull in the slack. belayer follows the pitch, and then the third follows. if the middle has already passed belayer, on the other hand, then simulclimbing or some other Plan B will be required. If the two seconds are not capable of simulclimbing, the leader should lead short pitches and establish extra belays, or the party should carry two ropes.

BTW, the leader of Team B is still an idiot, even if he did everything exactly as Tim described. Nonetheless, I'm equally inclined to believe Eric and Dan's account that they handed the girl a knife and then asked her to take a LEAD FALL while HOLDING A KNIFE. Not smart.
Posted by: Mark Heyman

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/05/08 04:50 PM

 Quote:
they handed the girl a knife and then asked her to take a LEAD FALL while HOLDING A KNIFE.


According to one member of that party this is true, though it didn't sound like much of a fall. See the RC thread.

----------------------------------------------------

I can at least think of situations where a second would incur some responsibility.

I don't think this happened in this case, but one example would be if the leader and second did not know each other and the second misrepresented themselves. I had this as one of several reasons for an embarrassing climbing situation last fall. The one thing I will say for myself was that I didn’t let anyone else put themselves in any danger and I left a small rack of gear to keep it that way.

Posted by: quanto_the_mad

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/05/08 04:50 PM

Yeah, the falling while holding a knife is the part that bothers me the most. Even if she's on another line, both ropes run close to each other, a little flailing and it would be too easy to sever the other line.

Team B's leader could have cut the rope himself. He's anchored in, he's not panicking, he's not flailing, he can cut the rope high enough that the risk of cutting anything else is minimal. But then the risk is all on him, maybe he doesn't want the responsibility.
Posted by: MarcC

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/06/08 12:30 AM

 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
...and then asked her to take a LEAD FALL while HOLDING A KNIFE.

No, it was basically a top rope fall, as described by Tim upthread a ways:
 Originally Posted By: Tim
Our lead climber ascended to the roof with our second rope and setup and anchor. He put the rope through the anchor, which was slightly above her waist. She was close enough to grab our rope and tie in using a figure 8 knot. Then I put on her on belay. With the rope tight her feet were about a foot or so from the cliff. Still we heard nothing from her leader. Therefore we suggested she cut the rope and when she did she landed softly on to the cliff as if on a top rope.
Posted by: retr2327

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/06/08 01:41 AM

"if the middle has already passed belayer, on the other hand, then simulclimbing or some other Plan B will be required. If the two seconds are not capable of simulclimbing, the leader should lead short pitches and establish extra belays, or the party should carry two ropes."

Great plan. Maybe you should revisit the earlier comments.
Posted by: MarcC

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/06/08 03:42 AM

 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
if the middle has already passed belayer, on the other hand, then simulclimbing or some other Plan B will be required. If the two seconds are not capable of simulclimbing, the leader should lead short pitches and establish extra belays, or the party should carry two ropes.

Not to particularly pick on pedestrian, but I disagree with this, too. A party of three carries two ropes. Period. No simul-climging, no cows-tail tie-ins, no middle tie ins. It's a 250' route, with a level, 10 minute approach. Saving all 8 lbs of the extra weight of a second rope is less than stellar thinking.
Posted by: dalguard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/06/08 05:21 PM

So what happened to the guy in the middle?
Posted by: chip

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/06/08 06:10 PM

Cut out the middle man!
Posted by: retr2327

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/06/08 06:40 PM

 Originally Posted By: chip
Cut out the middle man!


Priceless. Well done.
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/06/08 06:41 PM

 Originally Posted By: MarcC
 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
if the middle has already passed belayer, on the other hand, then simulclimbing or some other Plan B will be required. If the two seconds are not capable of simulclimbing, the leader should lead short pitches and establish extra belays, or the party should carry two ropes.

Not to particularly pick on pedestrian, but I disagree with this, too. A party of three carries two ropes. Period. No simul-climging, no cows-tail tie-ins, no middle tie ins. It's a 250' route, with a level, 10 minute approach. Saving all 8 lbs of the extra weight of a second rope is less than stellar thinking.


On High E, sure. You shouldn't be simulclimbing or cowtailing the first 60m pitch. For shorter routes than High E however there is no reason.
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/06/08 08:32 PM

Hasn't anyone here ever fallen with ice tools and crampons on their person? How about screws. You'd be falling with about 26 knives. This is not as big a deal as you all make it out to be. Get a life and go do something with it.

RR
Posted by: Mark Heyman

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/06/08 08:50 PM

 Originally Posted By: dalguard
So what happened to the guy in the middle?


Uh, he's waitng for someone to cut him loose too?
(That guy up top just won't lower him!)
Posted by: MarcC

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/06/08 10:24 PM

 Originally Posted By: pedestrian
On High E, sure. You shouldn't be simulclimbing or cowtailing the first 60m pitch.


How about three people, one rope, no cows-tail tie-ins, no middle tie-in, no simulclimbing? Instead leader gets to belay ledge, anchors and ties in. Leader brings up second, who ties in to anchor with slings. Second then unties his end of the rope, coils it, and tosses it down to the third. Third ties in and leader brings him up to belay ledge. The leader had set the belay in the corner, so his second pitch was to traverse out right and up to the big triangular ledge on the GT.Remember, we're still talking about High E here. Before he gets too far, I call over (we were on The Last Will Be First) and ask him how he plans to get the rope back to the third person in the corner. I get a blank look. I then ask him how he plans to get the rope down to the third person on the last pitch, under the overhang and well in from the overhanging headwall, assuming the third survives their second pitch. I get an even blanker look, which I didn't think possible.

Some brain cells finally awoke from their stupor and they reconsidered, eventually opting to lower the third back to the ground. This was some time in the mid 80's. Stupidity on High E is, alas, hardly a recent occurrence.
Posted by: Tim

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/08/08 03:36 AM

EMan,

Why is the leader of party B an idiot? He setup an anchor for the girl to belay down to the ledge using the end of our rope, What would you do leave her hanging? or finish the climb around her?

Tim
Posted by: Mark Heyman

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/08/08 03:27 PM

Sounds as if it might have been difficult to convince leader A to lower, but after all the discussion about hauling and with 20-20 hind sight and assuming the first second was off the wall too; then perhaps the easiest solution without cutting the rope might have been to climb through quickly with goal being to help as quickly as possible. Just clip the pro already on route etc. Get to the top, and lower both seconds all the way to the ground using both ropes. Knot passing should be especially easy with two leaders working. Even passing a knot could be avoided by allowing a belay device and biner to be lowered too.

That said, I am not as completely against cutting the rope as others have been even though I admit all their concerns are valid. It was a viable option, and it sounds as if you handled it better than some feared. Note that whatever rope the girl cut, she would still be hanging by the other. and it would have been unlikely to cut both at once. I do admit that I don’t like the idea of her dropping the knife. Things we don’t know: was the knife slung to something? How large and sharp was it…?

Personally and I emphasize that with 20-20 hindsight I could have performed my above solution in about the same time as building and anchor and cutting the rope. Yes I’ve read Kent’s posts and agree that climbers ought to make the effort of learning how to gain mechanical advantage and when it will be necessary and/or useful. In this case lowering would have been quicker and have a much higher chance of success, and be mostly free of the dangers presented by high mechanical advantage systems. I know I learned something so this discussion was useful to me.
Posted by: Dillbag

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/09/08 01:45 PM

 Quote:
Just clip the pro already on route etc.


Uhh... Mark would you really trust the pro of a party that was in this situation?

I for one would use my own!
Posted by: Julie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/09/08 02:11 PM

Tim,

Eman originally posted that your leader had only attached her in with webbing. That would have been quite bad - leaving nothing to stretch and absorb the force of her fall, once she cut the rope. From what you said, that wasn't true. I had guessed he would use a rope, earlier in the thread - I'm glad this was the case.

Another point is the knife. It's very, too, easy for a sharp object to cut a tensioned rope. What if the knife had happened to come near your rope, as she fell onto it? The thing is, she was panicked, and so she shouldn't have done the cutting. That wasn't a great call on your leader's part; he should have cut the rope himself.

All in all, your leader did a decent job of handling things - and after all, he didn't ask to be put in that situation. It's the leader of the party above you, that really f*cked up. Just plain lowering her would have made all of this moot, and put everyone in less danger.
Posted by: Mark Heyman

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/09/08 05:02 PM

 Originally Posted By: Dillbag
 Quote:
Just clip the pro already on route etc.


Uhh... Mark would you really trust the pro of a party that was in this situation?

I for one would use my own!


No, of course not! I don’t remember if it was on this board, but it was mentioned that leader A had already tested almost every piece by hanging on them! If I’d been waiting to climb I surely would have noticed the leader if front of me hanging their way up the route. Anyway I don’t think I need much pro for the top pitch of High E – though I would be very careful not to fall on party A’s seconds. So there was probably a lot more than I would place, and I would have checked only the ones I wanted to depend on. –especially the ones above them till I was out of range

For the record I am an OK climber – but slow and inefficient placing gear.
Posted by: wombat

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/09/08 05:09 PM

the rope that really needed cutting was the rest of party A's when they got to the ground. cut it up into leetle pieces so that it couldnt be used again. and their gear should have been shared out to everyone in the area.
Posted by: TrippleB

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/09/08 05:45 PM

I think they should have thrown the girl off the GT ledge for falling on that climb, and for screaming in panic. Clearly she should not be breeding.

Then the party on the GT ledge should have soloed up and knifed the original leader for cowtailing an inexperienced climber and showered his gear onto more deserving climbers below.

After that the people below should have beaten to death the GT ledge party for doing such horrible things to other people and then accordingly divided up their gear.

Just my 2 cents.
Posted by: The Lisa

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/09/08 07:25 PM

No, no, no don't punish the people involved. Remember ours is a culture of victimhood. It is not their fault High E has The Move. I say bolt High E from ground to top, turn it into a sport climb. With many many rap anchors. ;\)
Posted by: Terrie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/09/08 08:08 PM

...well, now that you mention it, why not make every bolt a double set? That way people could make use of doubles on the new, improved Hi,E(renamed because who the hell cares about the past, anyway). Adding rap rings to each set of bolts is a good idea because the people could toprope from any station along the way.
Posted by: Hooker02

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/09/08 08:34 PM

The shark has been jumped!!
Posted by: dalguard

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/10/08 01:01 AM

If it's that hard to get back on after a fall off High E, why aren't there constantly epics there? I'm still having a hard time picturing how she could be so stuck.
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/10/08 02:39 AM

 Originally Posted By: dalguard
If it's that hard to get back on after a fall off High E, why aren't there constantly epics there?


Right, it takes work to create a mess like this, but Team A was up to the challenge. Two possibilities come to mind:

1. She fell before the tricky move up onto the face and just swung out. Not many people fall here.

2. She fell at the move but with slack in the rope. Remember that her rope is not controlled by the belayer but rather by the second person's progress. If she moves up and the second person doesn't, the rope doesn't go up with her.

The vast majority of parties are competent enough that neither of these scenarios happens.
Posted by: TrippleB

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/10/08 08:00 PM

 Originally Posted By: The Lisa
No, no, no don't punish the people involved. Remember ours is a culture of victimhood. It is not their fault High E has The Move. I say bolt High E from ground to top, turn it into a sport climb. With many many rap anchors. ;\)


but we are also a culture of entitlement, and if we don't punish the non-conformists how do the holier than thous get their deserved free swag?
Posted by: phil

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/11/08 04:07 PM

 Originally Posted By: RangerRob
Hasn't anyone here ever fallen with ice tools and crampons on their person? How about screws. You'd be falling with about 26 knives. This is not as big a deal as you all make it out to be. Get a life and go do something with it.

RR


I have no idea what you're talking about?

Official life time member of team Kersplat!
Posted by: budman

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/26/08 10:39 PM

Gotta love this stuff. Being a Gunkie from some years ago I just had too. Like the old addage, EVERYBODY"S GOT ONE, here goes. Was there clear and present danger, don't think so. Screaming second under an overhang, a problem for the ears but not much more. Cutting a rope is a last resort. Area in which the incident happened well traveled and busy, go get help if you don't know self-rescue. If the primary anchor for the troubled person was in question, back it up. I was giong to list options but the sky is the limit, KEEP IT SIMPLE. What are people going to do in the backcountry? Learn, learn, learn and keep learning. Oh yeh, listen to the wise old people.
Posted by: Terrie

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 01:43 PM

"What are people going to do in the backcountry?"

...somehow I doubt that anyone from team 1 is the backcountry sort.....But good attempt at thread rejuvenation. With the crappy weekend forecast, maybe it'll get some respsnses.
Posted by: phlan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 04:35 PM

Team Kursplat!!! now I almost forgot about that.
who else here besides me (also a member) has the requisite qualifications to apply for membership???
I think you can guess what the qualifications are...
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 05:36 PM

What's the minimum groundfall height for Kersplat membership? I'm guessing 15 feet. Looks like I don't qualify.
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 05:37 PM

Richie should be, like Secretary-General of team Kersplat.
Posted by: d-elvis

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 05:38 PM

I do have suitably framed certificate on my wall signed by the prez himself
Posted by: chip

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 05:42 PM

I kersplated once from the little overhang on Hyjek's (foot popped), back before there were mini-cams and after the pin got pulled as "unneccessary". Does that count, or does it have to be higher?
Posted by: MarcC

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 05:54 PM

 Originally Posted By: chip
I kersplated once from the little overhang on Hyjek's (foot popped), back before there were mini-cams and after the pin got pulled as "unneccessary". Does that count, or does it have to be higher?

<thread drift>
Don't know if it counts, but that move could be well protected with the existing gear of the 90's when the pin vanished*. A #4 RP goes in really well in the base of the tiny V slot near where the pin was. One of the small Metolius TCU's can be placed off to the left. Up at the overhang, a #4 and #5 Chouinard stopper can be opposed - the bigger one from the back pulled forward, the smaller on the front side of the little horizontal at the o-hang pulled right.

Note: sizes are based on the sizes of what was available in the 90's - have no idea how that maps onto newer gear.

*: iirc, the pin broke, it wasn't pulled. The stub was visible in the crack for some years afterward. Because of what I described above, it was deemed unnecessary and wasn't replaced.
</thread drift>
Posted by: TrippleB

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 05:58 PM

Ped, I am amazazed you have avoided Kersplat membership.
Posted by: phlan

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 06:16 PM

here are some of the rules:
-groundfall should be at least 20 feet, phil's was a ledgefall, but the spectacular nature of the rescue more than made up for that
-if you are dead, you are not eligible
-noobs generally not, that's just darwin at work
-yuppies need not apply
-you'll have to deal with the "no slack revue" (taunting by fellow members esp. while climbing)
-one initiation rite consists of wearing the most deviant costume you can think of and showing up at the cliffs (i.o.w. climbing naked, of course. a pink thong is pretty good too)
-you should have your own trademark "costume" that you wear at other times, so you can be identified by other members
-you should ideally have lots of scars to show from, not only climbing accidents*, but also car wrecks, motorcycle crashes, industrial accidents, various near death escapes etc. points are assigned by nature and size of the scars of course and determine rank within the group
-we like screaming girls and are encourage to apply for membership
-that is all I can think of for now...:-)

*climbing accidents actually score the lowest of all... ;-)
Posted by: Coppertone

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 06:23 PM

 Originally Posted By: MarcC
 Originally Posted By: chip
I kersplated once from the little overhang on Hyjek's (foot popped), back before there were mini-cams and after the pin got pulled as "unneccessary". Does that count, or does it have to be higher?

<thread drift>
Don't know if it counts, but that move could be well protected with the existing gear of the 90's when the pin vanished*. A #4 RP goes in really well in the base of the tiny V slot near where the pin was. One of the small Metolius TCU's can be placed off to the left. Up at the overhang, a #4 and #5 Chouinard stopper can be opposed - the bigger one from the back pulled forward, the smaller on the front side of the little horizontal at the o-hang pulled right.

Note: sizes are based on the sizes of what was available in the 90's - have no idea how that maps onto newer gear.

*: iirc, the pin broke, it wasn't pulled. The stub was visible in the crack for some years afterward. Because of what I described above, it was deemed unnecessary and wasn't replaced.
</thread drift>


Never use cams on the bottom of Hyjeks. You can get a great tricam in the pocket about 10 feet up and then as Mark said slot nuts at the overhang.
Posted by: chip

Re: Screaming Girl/High E/Cut Rope - 06/27/08 08:26 PM

I had never seen a tri-cam yet at that point in my climbing adventures. Timing was about '84 or '85. I'm a slow study, I know they were around by then. I think that my parachute roll across the sharp rocks followed by jumping up like Nadia Comaneci finishing her best routine should count at least as highly as actually wearing a gymnast uniform. My wife wasn't impressed, as excited as I was by finding all parts remained intact and functional.
I've since tried to place that tricam but never thought it looked all that great. The overhang is easy to protect, which I was slotting with a little hex when I popped.