chimneying is Easy, Right?

Posted by: rg@ofmc

chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/13/11 09:56 PM

http://vimeo.com/25478180
Posted by: Rickster

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/13/11 11:06 PM

What's 8a about 5.13+? He seemed to forget the toe heel, toe heel movement and looked so relieved to start doing some "normal" stemming.
Posted by: SethG

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/14/11 01:26 PM

Wow, thanks for posting that link. Looks freakin' hard. I can't question the guy's technique. Nice to see a climbing vid where the hero climber looks honestly scared.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/14/11 03:13 PM

Wow, awesome. Looks like a fantastic route, with super-cool movement. Even with all those bolts, though, I'd be petrified climbing on what appears to be slate!

GO
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/14/11 03:21 PM

It is slate. There's all kinds of horrendous steep slab climbing on former slate quarries in Llanberis.

Rick, I don't think heel-toe technique gets you anywhere in a badly flared dihedral.
Posted by: TerrieM

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/14/11 03:55 PM

eeps! Pretty buttery down low.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/14/11 04:07 PM

Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc

Rick, I don't think heel-toe technique gets you anywhere in a badly flared dihedral.


My experience in chimneys is extremely limited and never, ever even close to the level of difficulty shown in the vid, just seemed much easier for him as he placed that rear foot up under his butt and stood up.

Though huffing and puffing, he made fine work of the pitch, and who doesn't get in some huffing and puffing when thrutching up a chimney, especially an 8a badly flared dihedral?
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/14/11 04:49 PM

Oh, you mean back-stepping. Heel-toe refers to jamming the heel against the toe in offwidths and is a critical technique, but the walls have to be nearly parallel for it to work.

The situation looks desperate enough that he's continually trying to get something, anything to work. Backstepping gets your back off the wall, making it easier to move up, but then it is just your feet keeping you in, you lose all the friction of your back against the flare. A combination of back friction and palming might be more secure.

Years ago I tried something analogous in Yosemite (but it was 5.10, not 5.13). Can't remember the name, it was a variation on the top pitch of something on the Cookie cliff, I think. Same deal, chimneying in a very open dihedral. Totally shut me down. You can't imagine how complex and sophisticated the counterforce issues are until you try something like this.

I also remember some frightening flared chimneying on the West Face of Sentinel, on a pitch that was supposed to be A3 at the time and is now 5.11. At one point, I chimneyed the flare while pulling gently on horrible pin placement that I didn't trust to put body weight on. Protection was a bunch of A3 pins below. Yikes!

The Quarryman is 2-3 grades harder than any of that. I wouldn't be surprised if most of us couldn't manage more than a move or two. Keeping it together after a few super insecure moves is a real problem, and the climber, who I'm sure is very good and who has probably worked the route, nearly loses it two or three times.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/14/11 05:34 PM

Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
Oh, you mean back-stepping. Heel-toe refers to jamming the heel against the toe in offwidths and is a critical technique, but the walls have to be nearly parallel for it to work.


Well there you have it. My poor choice of words again. Thank you Rich for the clarification of terms. These web discussions are so different than the ones of yore, where participants are free to actually dance around beneath the Ube demonstrating the technique in question move for move, like a puppet on a string.

When stacking feet in off widths, I always placed my heel against my instep if possible. I so hate that crushing feeling across my toes.
Posted by: Chas

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/14/11 06:36 PM

I wouldn't call that offwidth'ing. Its more good use of body english in a tight dihedral. Its cool given the tenuous nature of the route.

As for heel/toe (the classical offwidth technique), it works pretty good in flairs. I even use in in 90deg angle dihedrals occasionally to cop a rest or if one of the feet have edges high edges and you need to keep moving the foot up, I'll heel/toe in the dihedral sometimes.
Posted by: schwortz

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/14/11 07:01 PM

watch johnny dawes do that pitch to see how to do it with style
Posted by: retroscree

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/14/11 07:58 PM

Isn't heel/toe jamming the toe and heel of the same foot against opposite sides of the crack? Putting the toe of one foot against the instep of the other is just a foot stacking variant.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/15/11 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: schwortz
watch johnny dawes do that pitch to see how to do it with style


The link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLyF8zcP674&playnext=1&list=PL73482FABDA0025A7

I don't think he left out any chimney technique here. And, some arm bars, knee bars and what looks like an iron cross in there to boot. A tutorial on flared dihedral climbing. Impressive. This vid rates the climb at 5.11d, so I guess the Brits have as much difficulty as we Yanks when agreeing on grades.
Posted by: retr2327

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/15/11 02:48 PM

"what looks like an iron cross in there to boot"
Well, as with most issues, I'd defer to Rich on this, but I don't think that would qualify as a true iron cross. Supporting oneself on extended arms pressing against a solid surface uses entirely different muscles than supporting oneself in that position on hanging rings.

The former is challenging, but not unreasonably so, especially if your palms are below your shoulders. The latter . . .
Not in this lifetime.
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/15/11 03:05 PM

Dawes makes it look a lot easier. Going on memory, I think he stems past some of the places that appeared hard to chimney in the other video. You get a sense of how slick slate is at one point when Dawes' foot actually skids while loaded.

It looks like you could heel-toe in the back of that dihedral, by the way, but that is looking at it with granite/sandstone eyes...

The moment when Dawes suspends himself on opposed arm cross-pressure is cool, perhaps a bit of a party trick, but it is absolutely nothing like an iron cross in difficulty.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/15/11 04:14 PM

I found the big, long prone move with feet on one wall and the single hand,then double hands stretched out impressive. Body bar, super man, plank, what could we call that?

And, yes I know what a true iron cross looks like, and have experienced how difficult it is to execute (failed), just couldn't think of what one might call that technique in rock climbing a flared dihedral.
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/15/11 04:46 PM

Arm Oppo? Reverse Crusher? Atlas Shrug? Wall Reffing?
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/15/11 05:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: schwortz
watch johnny dawes do that pitch to see how to do it with style


The link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLyF8zcP674&playnext=1&list=PL73482FABDA0025A7


WOW! Among the coolest videos I've ever seen of climbing! I actually applauded when he cut both feet and stuck the high left foot.

This vid also explained something I couldn't understand from the last one - why was he bringing his feet so damn high? The shots from above showed that the rock in some places is polished to an actual mirror sheen. That explains that!

GO
Posted by: schwortz

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/15/11 07:34 PM

if you've never seen johnny dawes' video "stone monkey" you're missing out on some primo climbing vid porn...it includes the quarryman as the finale
Posted by: TerrieM

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/15/11 07:45 PM

Both videos are excellent. But those gold lycra pants on dawes' belayer are a blast from a past I'm sort of glad I was too young for! hahaha

Yeah - you could SEE the sheen on the the rock face. I cannot imagine the steel those guys are made of! What of the FAist!?
Posted by: Rickster

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/15/11 09:29 PM

The Quarryman, 1986 by ...... Johnny Dawes. The probable first one day ascent or all 4 pitches was just this past spring by Steve McClure.
Test report:
www.rockandice.com/news/1468-steve-mcclu...ng-qthe-grooveq

Mammut video with some coverage of McClure on The Groove pitch:
www.rockandice.com/videos?task=videodirectlink&id=226

Now that we've got all the possible beta, the bolts have been tested and proven, who's fly'n over?
Posted by: AOR

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/15/11 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
It is slate. There's all kinds of horrendous steep slab climbing on former slate quarries in Llanberis.

Rick, I don't think heel-toe technique gets you anywhere in a badly flared dihedral.


Llanberis is a great place to climb. During my stay there (early 80's), I had an opportunity to have a conversation with the legendary Joe Brown and was awed by his humility. I also played a round of pool with Moe Antoine at a local pub just prior to one of his Himalayas trips, (sorry for the name dropping, but it was just too cool not to mention!).

To climb in a place with such an incredible climbing history alone was worth the trip.
Posted by: phlan

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/17/11 07:19 PM

yeah! now that is name dropping I don't mind. how was it getting used to that rock.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/18/11 05:19 PM

Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
It is slate. There's all kinds of horrendous steep slab climbing on former slate quarries in Llanberis.


Guess it really teaches you to climb in control and press in/down, not pull out, when every hold is extremely suspect. When he pulled off that big chunk (@ minute 8 in the vid) his balance didn't even shift. He just tossed it down to join the rest of the debris.

GO
Posted by: phlan

Re: chimneying is Easy, Right? - 07/18/11 07:23 PM

that video is pretty awesome, there is also this slate route called 'the very big and the very small' that sounded horrendously difficult.