First Trad Lead

Posted by: spasmatron

First Trad Lead - 08/20/03 05:56 PM

Any suggestions for a good first ever trad lead?
I've just bought a reasonable rack and want to climb about 5.6. Any gear beta would be usefull too.

If anybody want's a good laugh (and isn't offended by profuse bad language) - I'll be up there this weekend.
Posted by: nerdom

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/20/03 06:52 PM

Disneyland (5.6-) is practically a sport climb, it's got so much fixed gear on it. Protects everywhere, any falls would be short and generally clean, and it's a great climb. I put a first time trad leader on it before, and she did fine.
Posted by: Judge11

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/20/03 07:14 PM

Quick question...
If you're going to attempt your first trad lead, what is compelling you to start at 5.6?
Posted by: scottie_c

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/20/03 07:41 PM

If you think 5.6 is where you want to start, I would suggest starting lower than that.

Do Bunny (5.4) which is fun and ez. Then Gelsa (5.4), which is spectacular and forces a gear anchor at the end of pitch 2. If all goes well, try Horseman (5.5) which will give you a feel for what a gunks 5.5 is like. If you feel totally solid on this, try Jackie (5.6). If you feel totally solid, then check out the 5.6 post that is still fairly fresh

Have fun, and dont get over your head
Posted by: daryl512

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/20/03 07:50 PM

For your first lead I'd kick it down a few notches if I were you. Just work on easy climbs so you can concentrate on QUALITY gear placements first. You'd be suprised how much harder a 5.6 feels when you're fumbling with gear and then the wind picks up!

I'd suggest Easy Overhang 5.2 for a first lead. If that goes well give Northern Pillar 5.2 and Three Pines 5.3 a try next.

Daryl
Posted by: LesterLeBlanc

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/20/03 08:46 PM

FWIW: Unless there's been some serious grade inflation going on lately, Jackie was 5.5 last time I looked.

As for how hard a route to start off on ...

It depends on the climber. If this is someone who has followed on harder routes and boulders V5, then I don't think starting out on a 5.6 (especially Disneyland) is that dangerous or even that ambitious.

However, if the person in question hasn't followed 5.6 or harder yet and doesn't boulder anything in the V range, then it would be prudent to consider picking something easier than 5.6 for a first lead.

Bottom line: What can it hurt to try something VERY easy just to start off with? If the leader is feeling fine after a 5.3 or 5.4, then they can always (as Emeril says) kick it up a notch.

Posted by: LesterLeBlanc

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/20/03 08:50 PM

Quote:

Disneyland (5.6-) is practically a sport climb, it's got so much fixed gear on it. Protects everywhere, any falls would be short and generally clean, and it's a great climb. I put a first time trad leader on it before, and she did fine.




Disneyland is a good, gentle 5.6 that shouldn't give new leaders much trouble (as long as they don't bump their head at the mantle.

But, Les, I wonder if it's a good recommendation for a brand new leader to use old Gunks fixed gear? Aren't they supposed to be learning to place their own gear? And if they get so desperate that they need to clip a quick pin, maybe they should be leading something easier ... no?
Posted by: LesterLeBlanc

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/20/03 08:53 PM

Spas-

Any gear beta would be usefull too.

Gear beta for climbs 5.6 and easier? Mmmmmm ... no.

At this point in your climbing career, you really want to be learning how to spot good placements and take advantage of them.
Posted by: chip

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 01:08 AM

Best gear beta is to put in more than you think you will need.
Second pitch of Gelsa might be a bit much for a first time leader. Its been known to sketch out a few 5.6 leaders, although it is certainly appropriately graded.
Posted by: OffTheEdge

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 01:26 AM

My first gunks lead was No Picnic (5.4+). One nice thing about this climb is that there is no rope drage at all.. and the top is all jug bashing. Most other easy routes involve traversing and/or clipping long... plus it's a single pitch with an easy top anchor.... just my thoughts...
Posted by: fallenglass

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 03:01 AM

my first lead was 3 pines -- i agree with the others who say to pick a real easy route. your first lead isn't going to be about making the moves, you'll focus on placing really good pro. so pick a 'g' rated route with great footing and think of it as a laboratory rather than a project. three pines fits the bill. there's also a short 5.5/5.6 variation at the top if you absolutely have to do something harder. have fun!
Posted by: strat

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 01:33 PM

Rhododendron is another 5.6- that you could do that is very protectable. Also, there is Frog's Head with a 5.5+ or 5.6- rating.
Posted by: nerdom

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 01:34 PM

Quote:

But, Les, I wonder if it's a good recommendation for a brand new leader to use old Gunks fixed gear? Aren't they supposed to be learning to place their own gear? And if they get so desperate that they need to clip a quick pin, maybe they should be leading something easier ... no?




LL, sure they should be placing their own gear, and there are plenty of opportunities to do so, but the fixed gear is solid stuff on Disneyland, and the reason I suggested it was that it provides nice back up for a first-time Gunks leader who may be sketching out a bit. Takes a lot of pressure off if you can just clip the fixed angle iron, THEN work on getting your own piece in above it. I guess I should have clarified that in the beginning, so your point is well taken. The climbing above the mantle belay is maybe 5.5; the "harder" climbing is on P1, which is really well-protected. And I agree with you on the issue of leading 5.6 for a first-timer. If he's a strong climber with enough seconding experience, and he specifically asked for 5.6, then I don't see any reason to assume that he can't lead 5.6, especially a G-rated 5.6.

(BTW, he asked for beta, so here's some -- there's a bomber #3 Camalot placement protecting the crux mantle move; also, skip that shitty mantle belay and continue up into the corner, where you can build a solid, semi-hanging belay at the first piton you encounter; also, bring at least one 4-foot runner for the pro at the traverse under the roof, to avoid rope drag).
Posted by: Mark Heyman

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 01:48 PM

Lots of the same comments here, so I’m just another me too – though I agree with Lester about experience counting. Anyway, I started as a new climber on 5.5s, and did them. But, looking back on it I have to admit that I might have been better served doing easier routes at first.
Posted by: MarcC

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 03:11 PM

Quote:

... but the fixed gear is solid stuff on Disneyland...




When were the pins replaced? In 2000 (my last time in the Gunks) they were the same ones that I had clipped when I first did the route - in 1974.
Posted by: nerdom

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 03:13 PM

I'd still fall on 'em.
Posted by: strat

Thread Drift, Thread Drift - 08/21/03 03:16 PM

Did you test the pins with a hammer? Other than installing the pins yourself or testing them with a hammer, I don't know any other way to be sure they are good.
Posted by: nerdom

Re: Thread Drift, Thread Drift - 08/21/03 03:29 PM

I don't test the steering linkage in a car every time I drive it; I don't test the tires; I don't test a lot of shit, but that doesn't mean I don't trust it. I've yarded on the pitons in question, and they feel solid enough, certainly for bodyweight (and I have taken a short fall on an old ass pin on another route; it held). I'm not advocating running it out above any Gunks pins, and I specifically noted that for the first-timer who was seeking the info, that it just gave some security to place a piece of gear above it. Whether I would choose to fall on the pins or not is immaterial to the question that was asked anyway. It was just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions . . .
Posted by: Mark Heyman

Re: Thread Drift, Thread Drift - 08/21/03 03:37 PM

I don't test the steering linkage in a car every time I drive it; I don't test the tires;..

Sure you do, in the first few feet before you do anything that really matters.
Posted by: dalguard

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 05:33 PM

Do Bunny, which is 5.4, and if you're feeling good pull the roof and you'll get your 5.6.

Jackie sucks. I hate that route. Don't do that one.
Posted by: empicard

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 06:11 PM

I cant believe no one else caught this on the trollRadar.
First post? seems suspect. but what do I know. I've tasted troll bait, I know how good it tastes.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 06:22 PM

Do you mean the original post or this troll:

Quote:

Jackie sucks. I hate that route. Don't do that one.




Posted by: empicard

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 06:53 PM

Quote:

Do you mean the original post or this troll:

Quote:

Jackie sucks. I hate that route. Don't do that one.









Sorry. I meant the original post might be a troll. not so obvious what youre talking about in the new format.
althought i do sense a bit of sarcasm in the jackie comment. but i dont know. he might really hate it.
Posted by: nerdom

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 07:13 PM

except that he is a she!
Posted by: empicard

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 07:18 PM

whoops. sorry tradgirl.
Posted by: dalguard

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/21/03 08:01 PM

And I really hate it. No really. I've vowed never to lead that thing again because I can feel just as miserable on something much harder but feel better about feeling that miserable. And I don't think the gear is that great either. And that tree is coming down some day soon. So there.

Now why would the original post be a troll? If it is, it's not a very interesting one. Plenty of people have led 5.6 for their first lead. OK, my first lead was 5.2 and I fell off of it, but my second lead was 5.6. And it wasn't Jackie.
Posted by: LesterLeBlanc

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 12:05 AM

It's been a while for me, but I remember Jackie as being well-protected with or without the tree.

I like the route because it has an instructional component to it ... the crux is often considered awkward, but by bringing more technique to bear, the awkwardness all but disappears.

And it has a great finish.

Again ... FWIW ... Jackie is not 5.6.
Posted by: pitfall

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 11:20 AM

I think the first time I tried jackie, I started up a few feet and decided to traverse way right for some reason (I think it was one of my first times in the gunks and I had no guidebook or clue) and ended up on classic. Edited to add: Do you think my variation could be called Jackass?
Posted by: scottie_c

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 12:30 PM

Quote:

And I really hate it. No really. I've vowed never to lead that thing again because I can feel just as miserable on something much harder but feel better about feeling that miserable. And I don't think the gear is that great either. And that tree is coming down some day soon. So there.




Whoa. We have a strong oppinion here

I agree with Lester 100%, it's all about grabbing the jugs, and walking those feet up. After doing a bunch of gunks 5.6s, Jackie does seem a tad mild... Ursula, Loose Goose, Double Chin, and Horseman all seem harder, which are all 5.5s.
Posted by: dalguard

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 04:40 PM

It's not the roof I hate. It's the alcove and the moves getting up to it.

And yeah, the gear's good, but not for a 5.5G if you know what I mean. It's tinkery. Again, I'm not talking about the roof.
Posted by: strat

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 05:18 PM

Respectfully, dalguard, you are full of shit! The moves before the alcove are very easy to protect, and true it is a bit polished, but it is straight forward. The crux IMO is the "alcove" iand that is VERY easily protected with a grey camalot and if that's not enough you can slot a picture perfect stopper in as well. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Posted by: dalguard

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 05:41 PM

As I'm giving you my opinion, I'm going to insist on being allowed to have it. I'm not asking anyone to share it but I don't plan to change it because yours differs.
Posted by: spasmatron

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 05:53 PM

Empicard: No I'm not a troll! Why would I be a troll?
Everyone else (and, grudgingly Empicard), thanks for your advice - Rhododendron sounds good and also someone else recommended Minty?

Are there many similar grade routes with bolted anchor points? I'm hppy enough placing gear but belaying my second on self made anchors could be a bit hairy. All advice greatly appreciated.
Posted by: strat

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 06:00 PM

Ok, I'll be the first to say it.....If you have ANY lack of confidence about your ability to set bombproof anchors, then, maybe some instruction is a VERY wise idea.
Posted by: Mark Heyman

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 06:01 PM

Uh Oh

I'm spitting this hook out just in case!
Posted by: MarcC

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 06:02 PM

Quote:

Empicard: No I'm not a troll! Why would I be a troll?



Oh jeeze.....Once again, from the Jargon File:

troll
1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase “trolling for newbies” which in turn comes from mainstream “trolling”, a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT.

2. n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, “Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll.” Compare kook.
Posted by: MarcC

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 06:07 PM

Quote:

I'm hppy enough placing gear but belaying my second on self made anchors could be a bit hairy. All advice greatly appreciated.




Um, then you probably aren't quite ready to lead trad yet. Placing trad protection and building a gear anchor are merely different aspects of the same skill set.
Posted by: dalguard

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 06:14 PM

Oh, please. Who wasn't nervous about the first few anchors they built? It took me ages before I felt comfortable committing to a hanging belay I'd built - and that was several falls on to gear later.

Lots of Gunks routes have trees you can use. Sling the tree with some slack and build a gear anchor to hang off of. This will help build your confidence.
Posted by: strat

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 06:17 PM

<<Oh, please. Who wasn't nervous about the first few anchors they built? It took me ages before I felt comfortable committing to a hanging belay I'd built - and that was several falls on to gear later.>>

I was nervous about climbing on my first few leads, I was NOT, however, nervous about the quality of my anchors and their ability to hold big falls. Would not have left the ground otherwise, its this little desire to live that plagued me. Wazzammatter, not-so-very tradgirl?, is your friend visiting?
Posted by: MarcC

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 06:29 PM

Quote:

Oh, please. Who wasn't nervous about the first few anchors they built?



Well, me, for one. It was drilled into my head by the people that taught me that if you aren't 100% sure that your belay anchor is bomb-proof, you have no business leading a climb and being responsible for safeguarding two lives.

I spent a lot of time building anchors at ground level with a very experienced leader and having them critiqued before I had to do them for real. In those early days it may have taken a while for me to build a gear anchor sometimes, but never did I feel nervous about the anchor once it was constructed.
Posted by: buttons

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 06:31 PM

Quote:

Respectfully, dalguard, you are full of shit! The moves before the alcove are very easy to protect, and true it is a bit polished, but it is straight forward. The crux IMO is the "alcove" iand that is VERY easily protected with a grey camalot and if that's not enough you can slot a picture perfect stopper in as well. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


There is no need to jump on somebody for expressing her opinion. The truth is all the routes your discussing haven't been hard for 40 years or more. If you are in halfway decent physical shape, you should not have any trouble on any gunks 5.5 ( if you do, pick another way to spend your weekend). More gunks "climbers" should dedicate themselves to physical and mental preparation instead of worrying over jobs and insurance premiums.
There are maybe half a dozen people at the gunks who are truly "climbing". By that I mean giving 100% of themselves to it, and really trying hard (both are much more difficult than they first appear). I include all the "hardmen" who continually run laps up transcon and ridiculissima as not trying hard. That type of climbing is either training or showing off. Either way it has very little value if you truly want to climb hard. Lets face it, its going on 15 years since 5.14 was first climbed in the US. I'm sure some of you are thinking " I could never climb 14, I'm not strong enough, I don't have the talent, I gotta get back to work on Monday". Well yeah, you're right. Of course this is all my opinion and should have no bearing on your future so relax. Just don't be puffing up while discussing gear on a 5.5.

By the way my first lead was Laurel. I knew I could get to that tree without falling. I mean I was absolutely certain.

buttons


Posted by: piglet

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 06:31 PM

Hi -

Here's my opinion for what its worth. I have been told that a first lead should be at least 2-3 grades under what you can follow. It might be more helpful if you gave some info about what you have followed, your experience placing gear etc. No one wants to get you hurt by recommending a climb that's too hard for your experience level.

My first leads were Bunny (5.4), Finger Locks (5.5) and the first pitch of Middle Earth which is 5.5 - 5.6 ish up to the ledge with the large tree. These are all one pitch with slings and rap rings on trees at the top (At least when I did the climbs). Three Pines was my first multi pitch lead. When I started leading I was following 5.9 after following trad for a season (plus 3 years previous indoor experience).

Deirdre
Posted by: Julie

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 06:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm hppy enough placing gear but belaying my second on self made anchors could be a bit hairy. All advice greatly appreciated.



Um, then you probably aren't quite ready to lead trad yet. Placing trad protection and building a gear anchor are merely different aspects of the same skill set.




I agree entirely. If you aren't confident in your anchors, then you aren't confident in your gear, period end.
There's a lot more to leading, than climbing without falling; if all you want to do is climb, then toprope! If you want to lead, learn to lead - and that means learning gear and anchor systems (when you learn to lead, it's generally assumed that you already know how to climb).

You're happy *placing* gear ... fine, place it. On the ground. Then once you can build an anchor, leave the ground. Just don't be leaving the ground without being able to belay your second - that's just plain stupid.
Posted by: dalguard

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 07:09 PM

I say that if you're that confident that you are doing something 100% right that you've never done (for real) before then you're just dangerous. You ought to be nervous the first few times. It's a serious, serious thing you're doing building an anchor and bringing up a second. You have someone's life in your hands.

Risking your own life to your gear placing skills is different, or ought to be. Being less willing to risk your partner's life is, IMO, a perfectly natural and admirable feeling. By all means, new leaders should have a bolt or a tree in their first few anchors.
Posted by: dalguard

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 07:13 PM

Dear Strat,

Since you are so concerned with my reproductive and mental health, I will share with you that I'm on Depo Provera and never get my period. So I'm afraid the men on this forum will have to save that all-purpose excuse for dismissing anything a woman has to say for the other gals.

Also, I would like to know which part of what I said is non-trad. Is it using a tree for an anchor? Is it not liking Jackie? Is it worrying about my partner's safety? Or is it simply getting my period? If so, then I guess I'm still trad, since I don't. But I will inquire on behalf of the other women. Can they never be trad? Or are they only not-trad for one week per month?

Dawn
Posted by: dantheman

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 07:32 PM

You said it: different strokes...

Some go the confidence route to deal with the stress of potentially dangerous, relatively new activites.

Others use nervousness to keep them honest and aware of what they have to do.

Neither way is better. It depends on the individual.

I use a bit of nervous energy to boost my performance,
at least at the outset. It takes time to enter the "zone".

And FWIW, my fiance climbs far better when her "friend" visits.

Not that it's remotely relevant to anything discussed here, right?
Posted by: strat

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 07:43 PM

Dear Dalguard,
So your attitude problem is permanent. Too bad for you and everyone around you.

It's not very trad of someone to tell someone else that they shouldn't have the utmost confidence in their anchors before they leave the ground.

And like I said, different strokes for different folks.

as Fred would say,
Jeers

Posted by: LesterLeBlanc

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 07:57 PM

Buttons:

All the Gunkies who wanted to climb harder than 5.11 moved to Salt Lake City.

Now ... is that really trying hard???

Posted by: GOclimb

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 08:01 PM

Hahaha! You tell 'em dalguard! Maybe Strat is trying to drum up business for his new career?

FWIW, I suspect the whole thing's a troll, so it doesn't really matter if someone tells him to try 10,000 restless virgins.

And if it's not a troll - here's the point: When you're new to leading, you'll have plenty to think about, between gear placement, route finding, sling lengths, communication, multi-pitch rope handling, anchor building, exposure, fear of being above your pro, etc. Once you feel more or less proficient at doing those things, then it's time to start adding physical difficulty into the mix, bit by bit.

If you've had a competent leader look over some gear anchors you've made at ground level, and he or she is confident that you know your stuff, then grab the sharp end, and go. Nervousness is only natural. And if you're humble, that fear will will keep you safe and give you the motivation to keep learning through your leading career. Have fun!

GO
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 08:05 PM

My friend Arnold says 5.5's are for sissies
Posted by: stimpy

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 08:06 PM

Major flame warning

>>>Respectfully, dalguard, you are full of shit! The moves before the alcove are very easy to protect, and true it is a bit polished, but it is straight forward. The crux IMO is the "alcove" iand that is VERY easily protected with a grey camalot and if that's not enough you can slot a picture perfect stopper in as well. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.<<<<

Great, this coming from someone who hates Easy Keyhole, calls it a POS, let me guess – because they got spanked by a 5.2 on their first lead. If anyone is full of shit……..

Shut the f up strathole.

Anyway, what the F are you people talking about. Oh, you’re not ready to lead Blah balahblah. Bullsheit. We are talking about Jackie here right. What f-in gear anchor? Try slinging the f-in tree when you get up there or clip some f-in bolt monstrosity. And that goes for half the climbs in the gunks.

Dollguard, Don’t listen to the a-holes, they need to get a life. As for Strathole it is obviously that time of month. If you haven’t noticed the accident ratio of the most frequent pos(t)ers on this site is like a hundred times higher than the general climbing population. Just do what you think is right for you. I would gladly belay and follow you on your first lead. You gotta start somewhere.

Cheers not jeers
Posted by: MurphysLaw

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 08:10 PM

My friend Arnold says 5.5's are for sissies

Yeah, but he also doesn't repeatedly fall off of 5.6's either.


My first trad lead was a .7
I survived, but I don't think my underwear did.

My next one was a 5.2
edited to add - after spending a day w/ a guide mock-leading.
Posted by: Julie

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 10:13 PM

Quote:

We are talking about Jackie here right. What ... gear anchor? Try slinging the ... tree when you get up there or clip some ... bolt ....




Turns out, Jackie is one route where anchor-building actully does come in handy.

If you make your own, you leave the RAP anchors for people who are rapping, and for people coming up Classic. Which is only considerate.

It's also a good idea to make your own, so that your second doesn't face a huge leftward swing after they un-clip the last piton and attempt the roof.

But then, if you're too scared to belay up your second anyway, I guess their safety doesn't matter.

These are non-'climbing' issues I'd advise a beginning leader to think about, rather than getting tunnel vision for bolts.
Posted by: strat

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 10:28 PM

stimpy, you are an IDIOT!

The very behavior which you chastise me for, of stating an opinion about a climb, (Easy Keyhole) you support dalguard on? Notice way back in this thread, her statement somewhere along the lines of Don't Do Jackie, I hate Jackie????

Why doesn't THAT cause the wrath of your assinine behavior?

While my posts in this thread have attitude in them directed towards dalguard's intense responses, at least they offer information by offering a contrary opinion to Tradgirl's about the gear on the climb, your post does nothing but slander.

So, F You, IDIOT!

I don't miss the irony in this post
Posted by: LesterLeBlanc

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 11:29 PM

Julie:

Excellent point about not moving right to the tree on Classic. However ...

It's also a good idea to make your own, so that your second doesn't face a huge leftward swing after they un-clip the last piton and attempt the roof.


I would imagine that IF you did move to the tree (let's say it's a weekday and you're feeling lazy) you would CERTAINLY place a piece above the final roof so your second wouldn't have to fear a major swing ... right?
Posted by: LesterLeBlanc

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/22/03 11:36 PM

Strat:

You should really save your breath. Anonymous flamers aren't worth the electrons. Especially those that believe that leading without having solid anchors skills is perfectly fine.

And although stimpy attempts to make a jibe at the accident rate at gunks.com denizens, he seems to have missed the thread where people listed their mishaps. Except for the Ahhhh-Kersplat Club ... there were amazingly few climbing related accidents.

Dalguard:

It's one thing to be nervous or anxious. You have a good point there. A healthy dose of fear keeps us alive. However, it's another thing to be anything less than competently skilled in anchor-building when leading.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/23/03 11:36 PM

At the risk of returning to the question at hand, Dennis and Belly Roll would also be good candidates for a first lead. Betty is another popular first lead; Tipsy Trees and Black Fly would be fine too. Of the climbs people have mentioned already, I'm not thrilled with No Picnic, since the gear is a little trickier and not always over your head. My first lead was Casa E, which was great for me, but the poster might want a little more challenge--pitch 2 is nice but the start is pretty trivial. How about Easy V? Forget the rating. It will be exciting!
Posted by: oenophore

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/24/03 03:04 PM

Quote:

Strat:

You should really save your breath. Anonymous flamers aren't worth the electrons. Especially those that believe that leading without having solid anchors skills is perfectly fine.

And although stimpy attempts to make a jibe at the accident rate at gunks.com denizens, he seems to have missed the thread where people listed their mishaps. Except for the Ahhhh-Kersplat Club ... there were amazingly few climbing related accidents.

Dalguard:

It's one thing to be nervous or anxious. You have a good point there. A healthy dose of fear keeps us alive. However, it's another thing to be anything less than competently skilled in anchor-building when leading.


Nice quench!
Posted by: stimpy

Re: First Trad Lead *DELETED* - 08/25/03 06:06 PM

Post deleted by stimpy
Posted by: irisharehere

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/25/03 06:17 PM

"ok, Hi-E is a bad example since there are no bolt anchors at the top, I think)"

Umm, yeah there are Stimpy. If you want people to listen to your opinions, get your facts straight first!!!!

Iris
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/25/03 06:39 PM

Quote:

"ok, Hi-E is a bad example since there are no bolt anchors at the top, I think)"

Umm, yeah there are Stimpy. If you want people to listen to your opinions, get your facts straight first!!!!

Iris




Either I'm going blind or they weren't there last weekend.

There is a rap station off to the right, but I can't see using that as an anchor for the belay. Did I miss something obvious??? It has happened before.
Posted by: CrackBoy

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/25/03 06:51 PM

nope not blind, there are bolts up there, three to be precise, but they are pretty useless for High E's third pitch since they are too far to the left, you need to set a gear anchor or scramble up the little slabby part the the nd to possibly find a tree but i dont think there were many ones that i would want in my anchor
Posted by: irisharehere

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/25/03 07:04 PM

Althought they are off to the left, they're actually not bad for use as an anchor. Used them for this a few times, and it works out pretty well

Iris
Posted by: stimpy

Re: First Trad Lead *DELETED* - 08/25/03 07:26 PM

Post deleted by stimpy
Posted by: irisharehere

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/25/03 07:45 PM

No problems with you having an opinion Stimpy, whether or not I agree with it. Just saying, if you give examples to support your ideas, make sure they're correct.

Cheers, Iris
Posted by: CrackBoy

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/25/03 07:52 PM

actually they should be to the right
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/25/03 07:55 PM

Quote:

actually they should be to the right




yeah 3 bolts to climber's right. couldnt imagine using those as a belay anchor. there is good gear to be had though.
Posted by: MurphysLaw

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/25/03 08:05 PM

actually they should be to the right

Right, left - what's the difference?

No wonder you get off route so often CB - maybe yer dyslexic?

Plenty o' gear for an anchor on top o' High E.
(agreed - I can't even imagine how you'd use that joke of a rap anchor as a belay anchor for that pitch anyway)

Like CB says, I wouldn't trust much of the shrubbery at the top for an anchor, plus it's a waaays back. YMMV.

Shrubbery? Did I say shrubbery?

Next, you must cut down the laaaargest tree in the forest, with...
.... a herring!

edited to add: - hey spasmatron, so whadidja climb?
Hope what (little) advice you were able to glean from this thread came in handy.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/25/03 08:28 PM

Spas-ter

Congrats on starting the most ridiculous thread I have had the pleasure to read on Gunks.com.

So what did you lead?
Cheerios

ps - I am going to climb HighE asap because I want to see those cam grooves
Posted by: browndog2

Re: The Care and Feeding of A Troll - 08/25/03 09:48 PM

Its hard to say just when this became a troll or whether it was a troll right from the get go.
As one who has gotten trolled so badly I was still shitting the hook out the following week (thanks and props again, Crackers) a good troll should start out innocently, with a topic sprinkled with enough benign gumby-ness to inspire well meaning yet incredulous replies. This will in turn inspire other posters to reply to the first wave of replies who find those replies too helpful, or not helpful enough, or too opinionated, or missed the gist of the original inquiry (if one even existed). From there, we're off to the races, flames feeding more flames, original topic be damned.
This one was way up there, degenerating into name calling after only two pages, with thinly vieled accusations of midguided sexual orientation rapidly following.

Wonder what his first lead ended up being?

Anybody who suggested anything other than Belly Roll is a pinko-faggot commie.
Posted by: spasmatron

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/25/03 10:04 PM

I'm embarrased to say that I've been slyly lurking on the thread, too ashamed to pipe up - my apparently-soon-to-be-dead belay buddy (and lift) welshed out. Seems he had a better offer involving women and alcohol.

Bugger.

You'll be pleased to hear however, that it's only a postponment and there'll be the promises of fresh corpses next weekend. In the meanwhile - everyone please feel free to continue posting helpful route suggestions or, even better, giving each other a right royal slagging .

Yours,
quietly confidently,
Spas
Posted by: stimpy

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/26/03 01:20 PM

Sorry, I forgot to take my medication. I feel much better now.
Posted by: strat

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/26/03 01:27 PM

Spasmatron, Are you British?
Posted by: spasmatron

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/26/03 05:26 PM

YUP!
How'd you guess?
Posted by: strat

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/26/03 05:28 PM

The Royal Slagging thing gave it way, you nancy boy Brit, you?
Posted by: irisharehere

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/26/03 05:54 PM

and also "welshing" - wonder how my cousins from Swansea feel about that term?????

Irish
Posted by: GeeVee

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/26/03 06:52 PM

you nancy boy Brit

Wondered how long it would take you to figure that out (and start in with the homo-anglophobic slurs).

Like Bugger wasn't a gimme?
Posted by: GeeVee

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/26/03 06:55 PM

and also "welshing" - wonder how my cousins from Swansea feel about that term?????

They're too busy taking a leek to care. I seem to recall a discussion of the origins of the phrase "welshing" some time ago. Anyone care to look for it? Wait long enough everything gets regurgitated on this board - kind of like a certain person's chicken wings.
Posted by: GeeVee

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/26/03 06:57 PM

How'd you guess?

With a name like spasmatron it would be hard to be anything else.
Posted by: d-elvis

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/27/03 03:18 PM

ps - I am going to climb HighE asap because I want to see those cam grooves

If there are cam grooves on HighE I expect that's my fault - sorry
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/27/03 03:47 PM

If there are cam grooves on HighE I expect that's my fault

Dennis

I said "grooves" not fissures
Posted by: LesterLeBlanc

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/27/03 04:36 PM

d-

There are cam grooves where you might want to put a piece next time you're up there.
Posted by: MarcC

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/27/03 05:00 PM

Quote:

There are cam grooves where you might want to put a piece...




Uh, folks, long before there were cams, hundreds of angle pitons were hammered into that same spot for decades. Those are piton grooves!
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/27/03 05:21 PM

Quote:

In the meanwhile - everyone please feel free to continue posting helpful route suggestions or, even better, giving each other a right royal slagging .




Huh?? I'm confused.

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:

Slag \Slag\, v. i. & t. [imp. & p. p. {Slagged}; p. pr. & vb. n.
{Slagging}.] (Metal.)
To form, or form into, a slag; to agglomerate when heated
below the fusion point.


So maybe slagging wasn't the word you were looking for? Perhaps, in Strat and Dalguard's case, you meant to use "shagging"?

At the risk of returning to the topic at hand (gasp!) I would suggest Casa Emilio or Easy Overhang for a first lead. Casa E has the nice bonus option of traversing (at 5.3-5.4 or so) over to Casablanca to put a toprope atop a killer roof, and other topropes on the large block below. Also, the first pitch is 5.0, so if your gear sucks you probably won't die. Bring somebody who can critique placements.

(Tree on casablanca is starting to look increasingly unhealthy, and somebody "removed" some of its quicklinks recently. Back up with gear if possible.)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/27/03 06:25 PM

Those are piton grooves!

Marc

That was exactly my point in my obviously not sarcastic enough post.

Cheers
Posted by: spasmatron

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/27/03 07:58 PM

Quote:


[From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:

Slag \Slag\, v. i. & t. [imp. & p. p. {Slagged}; p. pr. & vb. n.
{Slagging}.] (Metal.)
To form, or form into, a slag; to agglomerate when heated
below the fusion point.





From Rogers Profanisaurus, complete, unabridged,

slag n. 1. Woman of little virtue; slapper. 2. Waste material from a mine, slag heap. 3. (s-laaaaaag) Term of abuse applied liberally to male criminals in The Sweeney~(ing) general verbal abuse

Also, thanks for your advice. I like the sound of the 5.0, will definately look that one up.
However, it looks like the venue this weekend has changed to Vermont. Smugglers Notch? Bolton? Any more suggestions for first routes?
Posted by: MarcC

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/27/03 08:16 PM

Quote:

Those are piton grooves!
That was exactly my point in my obviously not sarcastic enough post.




I know, but with this being gunks.com, where satirical humor goes over many heads, something like "cam grooves" can take on a horrific life of its own! If we're not careful we'll see posts where someone will write about being sketched at the lack of pro on a g-rated 5.4 until they found the cam grooves! After that, people will start to argue about how to tell if a particular set of cam grooves are for an Alien or a Camalot. Then there will be talk of enhancing cam grooves and whether the Preserve should initiate a cam groove creation project on popular climbs.
See what you started!!!
Posted by: GeeVee

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/27/03 08:46 PM

Also, thanks for your advice. I like the sound of the 5.0, will definately look that one up.

Hey, spazzer. You'll love Casa Emilio - if you can find it!
Posted by: GeeVee

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/27/03 08:49 PM

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]

Spazzer already filled you in on the correct answer to this, but I have to ask why you would try to find a Brit colloquialism in Webster's?

And you forgot to mention to our Anglo buddy the three-day bushwhack that some people end up on whilst looking for Case Emilio.
Posted by: GeeVee

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/28/03 02:17 AM

slag n. 1. Woman of little virtue; slapper

And tonight's contenders... just walked up to the store on the corner and stopped to watch (aghast) as two women in a red Honda carefully manouvered the car dead center of a two-car spot. The passenger opened the door and the driver announces "I bet he's goin' to say somethin'" to which I expressed my surprise and disappointment that they had just chosen to park as they did. I was immediately subject to a torrent of abuse, of which "Why don't you mind your own business" was the general theme, although it went considerably further than that. But you know what? They weren't just selfish. They were also fat. And ugly. And really, really stoopid too.
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/28/03 04:14 AM

Quote:

Spazzer already filled you in on the correct answer to this, but I have to ask why you would try to find a Brit colloquialism in Webster's?

And you forgot to mention to our Anglo buddy the three-day bushwhack that some people end up on whilst looking for Case Emilio.




Hey, those guys across the puddle simply have got the language wrong. If my dict program can't look it up, it ain't a real word!

As for Casa Emilio... leading is all about route-finding, right?
Posted by: strat

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/28/03 04:16 AM

<<And you forgot to mention to our Anglo buddy the three-day bushwhack that some people end up on whilst looking for Case Emilio.>>

Oy Vey, You people crack me up. It is NOT hard to find the route. You walk down the carriage road until it makes a sharp right hand turn, at the turn, walk into the woods towards the big, beautiful, shiny, white face to your left.

When you are at the base of the cliff, take out the Book of Dick, open to the appropriate Psalm and you shall know exactly what to do.

I think someone of "first trad lead" spirit might not want to make the suggested traverse to Casablanca, but, that's just me.

If post casa E top roping were on the menu, you could do Contradance, which is a superb, short little pitch of 5.6 face climbing.
Posted by: LesterLeBlanc

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/30/03 02:25 AM

take out the Book of Dick

Or you can use the Swain guide which has that nifty little route finder feature at the top of every page.
Posted by: LesterLeBlanc

Re: First Trad Lead - 08/30/03 02:28 AM

hundreds of angle pitons were hammered into that same spot for decades.

Which spot are you talking about?

Posted by: spasmatron

Re: First Trad Lead - 09/02/03 12:49 PM

Just though I'd dredge this thread up from the murky depths to let you all know i actually managed my first lead this glorious Labor day weekend. Unfortunately I've not got a clue what the route was, and it wasn't at the Gunks.

So anyone thats been to Bolton in Vermont might be able to tell me - whats the route just to the right of the path, round the corner (climbers right) of Dead Babies. Single pitch (easy anchors), climbs a gentle right facing dihedral with a ballroom sized ledge about 10 feet from the top. The crux is above the ledge - laybacks and smearing with a big flake to the right

Anywone tell me the name or grade? My guess is about 5.2ish but whaddoiknow.

Very, very, very, very exciting. Especially since i took a lob on the crux (due to a massive Elvis leg situation) and my gear (and partner) held. So it wasn't a clean on-sight but it was the best ice breaker in history. This dreary office is a far cry indeed.

Thanks for the props (Stimpy, Dalguard) your wise words and gently coaxing were inspiring. Thanks even more to my detractors (strat, marc c) for making me doubly determined to prove you wrong.

Can't wait to get back out there. If this rain stops that is......

See y'awl
Spasmatron
Posted by: pitfall

Re: First Trad Lead - 09/02/03 12:55 PM

A fall on your first trad lead? Great.
Posted by: spasmatron

Re: First Trad Lead - 09/02/03 01:08 PM

Yeah - I know - but it was a pretty safe spot for a fall, not very far to fall and If I'm perfectly honest, I tested the placement first (I had a vision of something like that happening). Elvis strikes again.

Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: First Trad Lead - 09/02/03 01:53 PM

On the one hand, congratulations.

But OTOH, if you're falling off what may be 5.2, MAYBE you're not ready for the sharp end just yet.
Posted by: spasmatron

Re: First Trad Lead - 09/02/03 02:03 PM

Hmmmm, I hear you, and i'd kind of wondered that myself.

However, I can lead about 5.10 sport and have top-roped mid-510's so I'm putting it down to nerves. Besides, the route was mostly 5.2 but I reckon that bit was much harder - hence my original post, would be interested to know exactly what grade i do fall off at.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: First Trad Lead - 09/02/03 02:14 PM

Hey there,

Im the guy that was rope solo aiding the climb just to your left. I met up with a friend of mine and we top roped that route. He said most people call it 5.6 but its a stiff 5.6....Welcome to vermont! The upper section was akward laybacking.

Good work and keep on climbing

Toby

P.S. was that you guys that were eating shrimp? We found a bunch of shrimp tails at the base of the route kinda gross.
Posted by: spasmatron

Shamed - 09/02/03 02:37 PM

Toby - thanks for your support bud, much appreciated.

I'm gutted to heat that our party were littering the crag - it's my pet hate. I had no idea that thay were even eating there - too busy climbing I guess.

Much apologies to all the climbers up at Bolton and thanks for letting us enjoy your great grag - for what it's worth I'll give my party a good bollocking when I next see them.

Ashamed
Matt
Posted by: chrisinvermont

Re: First Trad Lead - 09/02/03 10:35 PM

Quote:

So anyone thats been to Bolton in Vermont might be able to tell me - whats the route just to the right of the path, round the corner (climbers right) of Dead Babies. Single pitch (easy anchors), climbs a gentle right facing dihedral with a ballroom sized ledge about 10 feet from the top. The crux is above the ledge - laybacks and smearing with a big flake to the right




The one right around the corner from Dead Babies is Wavey Goodbye and is a 5.7. I don't think it has the ledge on top that you described. There is another corner with another dihedral that is A-Sharp and is 5.6 and a hard 5.6 at that. You can tell which one it is because A-sharp is on the "A" Wall where two diagonal cracks meet to form a giant "A". As you can tell, Bolton is a pretty tough place to start leading, there isn't much easy to lead.

I have a 10 year old topo from Climbing. PM me with an email and I will shoot you a pdf copy.

Chris

Posted by: scottie_c

Re: First Trad Lead - 09/03/03 04:49 PM

Quote:

As you can tell, Bolton is a pretty tough place to start leading, there isn't much easy to lead.





Yeah, and the rock quality is marginal at best. There are some great lines at Upper Bolton, which start at a solid 5.7.