Easy aid climbing in the gunks?

Posted by: mr.tastycakes

Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/11/09 02:45 PM

Hey all. I'm hoping to get out before the start of the season to sharpen up my placement skills, particularly nutcraft, via some aid climbing. I'll not be using hooks or any of that noise as the goal is to practice free climbing placements. Can a brother get some recommendations for easy aid climbing in the gunks? A little mandatory free climbing is fine as long as it's easy (.6 or less) and reasonably protected. Ken's seems to fit the bill. Thanks.
Posted by: empicard

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/11/09 02:59 PM

ive done Kens Crack and either nosedive or retribution, which ever is the one on the right. both were good enough to recommend, and enough for me to realize aid gets boring QUICK.

check out http://www.ghiz.org/gunksaid.shtml
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/11/09 05:27 PM

When you say easy aid, do you mean as in A1, or do you mean you only kinda know how to place gear, so it should be butt-easy?

Cause Kansas City is a really fun A1 route, but if you're not very good at placing gear yet, something like Rhododendron, Ken's, or Finger Locks would be better.

Either way, have fun!

GO
Posted by: mr.tastycakes

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/11/09 05:45 PM

butt-easy all the way. If i found myself on the kansas city roof i'd probably poop my pants.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/11/09 06:13 PM

Do Crass (close part of Nears) up to the fixed anchor. Better than tying up Ken's, which other folks might be waiting to climb. Or that super steep 5.9 crack at the far end of Nears, the name I can't remember. It's close to Lean & Mean.
Posted by: caver

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/11/09 09:20 PM

Up in Arms?
Posted by: Fraser

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/11/09 09:47 PM

if you do a search on this site from a few years ago, there was a good thread already.

There is also a website dedicated to aid climbing in the gunks.

My recommendation is P-38. Easy approach and it was originally an aid climb with 38 pitons (hence the name).

Let me know when you're going and I'll bring a book and watch!
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/12/09 12:22 AM

 Originally Posted By: caver
Up in Arms?


Yea, that's it. Not too demanding gear-wise. Just cams all the way as I remember. Should be a good aid exercise though, since it's steep.
Posted by: MarcC

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/12/09 01:48 AM

 Originally Posted By: GOclimb
Cause Kansas City is a really fun A1 route, but if you're not very good at placing gear yet...

I dunno. I thought the aid gear on KC was very straight-forward and easy to place well. However I found getting over the lip of the roof incredibly awkward with a capital AWK. The difficulty being in that immediately above the lip, the angle kicks way back to almost flat, so each time you try to get higher/stand up in the aiders, your feet and legs swing back under the roof since your center of gravity is still below the roof. The placements weren't difficult, but figuring out just where to place the final two pieces to overcome physics took a little experimentation.
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/12/09 03:53 AM

Yeah, go to that website. Most of the easy aid lines are listed there. Just a note if you're not used to aiding.....easier free climbing grade does not necessarily equal easier aid climbing. The two are not related. I would recommend Nosedive as a great one to start on. Good gear all the way, straight line, easy to get off. Harvest Moon is also pretty good and easy for aid. Kansas City is as C1 as it gets, but it is a roof, and aiding a roof has it's own special techniques. Do a couple of vertical routes before trying the horizontal ones.

RR
Posted by: cfrac

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/12/09 10:49 AM

I think the exit move on Kansas City is hard too. It's very difficult to turn the lip. Someone mentioned p38 which is great until the crack ends, the free climbing moves above aren't bad free climbing but are super hard with all that crap hanging off your harness. I like Nosedive, a few small nuts low and the rest is great.
Posted by: empicard

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/12/09 01:01 PM

looks like 3 votes for nosedive!
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/12/09 06:48 PM

I think most of the responses are missing the point of Tasty's question. He wants to learn more about nut placements by aiding with them. The climb should have lots of nut placements and little to distract from placing and testing them. Severely verhanging rock really doesn't fit the bill well for this, too much energy and technique goes into maintaining position, and daisies, fifi-hooks, and other aid accouterments become more important.

So, I think he's looking for vertical or less than vertical routes that can be done primarily with nuts. To this I'd add another condition: not a super-popular climb. Otherwise, in addition to Nosedive and P-38, there would be Double Crack, Bonney's Roof, Eastertime Too. P1 of Erect Direction, P1 of the Spring, Simple Suff (not too overhanging I think), and on and on and on. If you spend all day aiding a three-star free route, someone might try to kill you, and they'd have a point---it would be pretty inconsiderate. Maybe on a very light weekday or a rainy weekend.

Finger locks would be ideal, I think. What else?
Posted by: mr.tastycakes

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/12/09 07:13 PM

perfect. you guys rock.

and don't worry, i'm sensitive to the overcrowding issues, especially on classics during the weekends. i'm planning to do this in the upcoming weekends while the weather is still crappy, the cliffs are wet, and the place is empty.

Fraser - given the time it currently takes me to set a nut, you may want to take several books. I might need a headlamp \:\)
Posted by: MarcC

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/12/09 08:05 PM

 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
Finger locks would be ideal, I think.

I feel it's too low angle, which makes for awkward aid (meaning the easy free climbing and abundance of holds get in the way of the aid). The crack kinda peters out early, too. I'd suggest something within 10 degrees of vertical. Many have already been suggested.
Posted by: Fraser

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/13/09 01:29 AM

 Originally Posted By: cfrac
Someone mentioned p38 which is great until the crack ends, the free climbing moves above aren't bad free climbing but are super hard with all that crap hanging off your harness.


Ah well, that's where hooks come in handy! You're right though it is either a 5.9 mantle or a hook move and then its easy again.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/13/09 04:37 PM

Yes, the exit move on Kansas City is the hardest part. And I agree that the gear is all fairly straightforward. But it's not what the OP is looking for - a point I wanted to clarify.

On a cold or rainy winter day, I don't think tying up a Ken's Crack, Rhododendron, or Finger Locks is going to be an issue.

Anyway, those three would be my recommendations.

One thing, though: Because of the diagonal nature of the crack on Ken's, nutcraft can be a lot trickier, because a nut can easily get pulled "up" relative to the crack. Also, if you fall and rip a piece or two, you're not as far off the ground. Just a few things to keep in mind.

So maybe Rhododendron and Finger Locks (bring your hexes on both) might be better choices.

GO
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/13/09 04:40 PM

Anyone have an opinion on Ant's Line? I remember it taking tons of great nuts when I led it (free), but I can't recall if the crack is discontinuous up higher.

GO
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/13/09 04:49 PM

 Originally Posted By: MarcC
 Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
Finger locks would be ideal, I think.

I feel it's too low angle, which makes for awkward aid (meaning the easy free climbing and abundance of holds get in the way of the aid). The crack kinda peters out early, too. I'd suggest something within 10 degrees of vertical. Many have already been suggested.


I think it wouldn't be bad for a first aid lead. Especially if he's going solo. Gives him a chance to make every beginner mistake, and free climb out of any cluster fucks he gets himself into.

After that, I agree, something steeper would be better for all the reasons you gave. I'm not familiar with Nose Dive as an aid climb, but if it's as good as all of you suggest, it sounds perfect.

It's too bad there's nothing like Crow Hill's Jane at the Gunks. Short, steep, and one continuous vertical nut crack.

One piece of advice - if you've never aided before, pick something short. It's going to take you waaay longer than you think, and you don't want to get benighted while you're alone, in the cold/wet, and working out stuff you've never done before.

GO
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/13/09 05:25 PM

Ant's line would work if you can get up the first ten feet or so. Might have to free climb that (or maybe aid off big cams?)

Which brings up another point worth mentioning: if you free climb up any distance to the first aid placement, that placement has got to be bomber, because you don't want it to blow and cause a ground fall. I speak from hard experience here, and am lucky to have survived the landing I had, which was on my back between two very sharp pointed boulders.
Posted by: chip

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/13/09 06:21 PM

Yikes, rg. Story?
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/13/09 07:19 PM

Pretty much as I said. Climbed up perhaps 12 feet, placed first aid piece, clipped in aiders, moved up, piece blew, and I landed flat on my back between the two sharp boulders. After I recovered my wind, got up and finished the route, but by then everything hurt so much I called it a day. Turned out I had some broken ribs. Either of the boulders would probably have severed my spine.

That was many years ago, and actually was the first time I had used nuts rather than pins on an aid climb. Those were pre-daisy days, and climbers back-stepped and sat on their foot in order to maintain position. When I did this, I applied a substantial outward force on the nut, which rotated and then blew. A lesson learned the hard way.
Posted by: retr2327

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/13/09 07:41 PM

Don't know anything about aid climbing, but sounds like Snooky's would work well.
Posted by: kmc2

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/13/09 08:02 PM

If your looking to go out early in the season, as in soon, you may have to reconsider Ken's Crack. If it is not iced now, it is most likely a waterfall.

Try some of the other mentioned climbs, or Jacky, Frogs Head, or maybe Bunny. Short G rated climbs that end at fixed anchors is what I would look for.
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/14/09 01:26 PM

I don't think Snooky's would be C1. Correct me if I am wrong, but there is some face climbing up higher where one would probably have to pull a couple of free moves or hook it. My limited experience has shown me that switching from free to aid is often the shittiest part of an aid pitch. Again, ease of free rating does not necessarily make it an easy aid route. Ant's Line is perfect. Steep, with placements the entire way.

Rich, once again you provide us with valuable insight. You're like a living, breathing mountaineering textbook.

RR
Posted by: socialist1

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/14/09 05:04 PM

If you are out in the nears, roseland and eastertime, too worked well for me.
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/14/09 08:19 PM

I think Roseland would be good and mentioned Eastertime Too myself. A word of caution on Roseland: it is critical to place a fully directional first piece, because the position of the belayer relative to the crack can result in a catastrophic bottom-to-top zipper. This is true for a free or aid ascent.

For some reason, Roseland made me think of the first pitch of Airy Aria. You might need a largish cam for the offwidth near the top though.
Posted by: Bill

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/14/09 11:59 PM

Disclaimer: I am bored and nursing a very powerful climbing jones; too lazy to get out and boulder in the cold weather today. Thus I'm cruising climbing websites tonight. The following is prompted more to evoke some discussion to relieve the ennui than to uncover any elemental climbing truths; whatever they may be.

Some questions:

Do you believe the experience gained in piece placement from aid climbing is transferable to free climbing?

Will it make you a safer trad climber?

If you believe it is and will, how do you reconcile the difference in forces between bounce testing aid pieces to even modest falls on gear while free climbing?

If you believe it is worth the effort; given the tedious, and I'm sure I am not the only one who feels this way, nature of the beast; how do you justify doing it as opposed to alternative and perhaps more productive exercises?

The one alternative that I have employed is to walk along the base of the crag and experiment by placing pieces within arm's reach of the ground and bounce testing them with a long sling. (Warning: be sure to keep your face off to one side so you don't get a mouthful of metal if the piece pops while employing this technique.) I have also done this "ground school" with anchors; setting up different configurations and directions of pull with a given situation and bounce testing the set-up with with a long sling.

Is aid climbing in the "off-season" to gain experience with gear placements worth the risk?

RG relates a ground fall incident and GO refers to clusterf--k aspect of aiding. Often in the "off-season" placements are wet and dirty, if not icy, and thus friction is reduced. The systems management aspect of aiding certainly complicates things, especially if you are soloing, and may increase the the risk relative to free climbing for someone relatively new to trad climbing.

Somewhat off-thread and most pertinent to Mass climbers; GO for beginning aid climbers the start, overhanging; and finish, bulge, to P1 Jane can be tough. I think it took me 14 pieces and two damn hours the first time I aided it. I'm now down to 6 to 7 pieces and about 15 minutes. What do you think about Intertwine as an alternative initial experience at Crow Hill for someone new to aid?

Thanks to all who might humor me with responses.

Bill
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/15/09 12:32 AM

Bill, I'd say ground school is just as good in principle. But aiding a crack is more concentrated and may force you to adapt to situations you'd just walk past on the ground. So ground school might be as productive as aid climbing from the placement perspective, but it certainly isn't more productive and might be less.

I definitiely think placing and bounce-testing gear will make the beginning climber a safer trad climber. In fact, I can't really think of a very good second alternative. Placing gear and having an experienced person visually "evaluate" it is a very distant second.

Aid climbing does have its dangers, especially for someone new to placing gear. So does leading on, essentially, the same placed gear however. Perhaps the best solution is to do the aiding on a toprope.

When I started climbing, it was typical for beginners to learn aid climbing along with free climbing. Now there are fantastic free climbers who would get all tangled up and exhausted if they had to do twenty feet of aid. I don't think this is either good or especially safe. Years ago I did a long climb with a very good British climber who had no aid experience. High up, there was a pitch with 40 feet of aid. He took forever to follow it and arrived way too tired to take the next pitch. We ended up bivouacing in the fading light where we would otherwise have made it down if he had been minimally competent.

A trad climber ought to be able to aid their way up or down out of trouble without taking all day or using up all their energy; this seems to me to be a skill of far more use and application than some of the self-rescue techniques that have become fashionable in the last several years.

So, practicing aid climbing, in addition to helping one learn to judge one's placements, helps develop skills that might be critically useful for the trad free climber when things do not go as planned.
Posted by: crackers

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/17/09 11:30 PM

An easy short route to aid, as long as the anchor is still there, is criss, the short 11a in the nears.

I'm 6'5", so i thought it was easy and short for aiding...any body going to tell me I'm wrong?
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/17/09 11:38 PM

Do you believe the experience gained in piece placement from aid climbing is transferable to free climbing?

Yes.

Will it make you a safer trad climber?

Maybe.

If you believe it is and will, how do you reconcile the difference in forces between bounce testing aid pieces to even modest falls on gear while free climbing?

Sometimes it really is black and white. The right piece will stick, period. And the wrong one will blow from even a small force.

If you believe it is worth the effort; given the tedious, and I'm sure I am not the only one who feels this way, nature of the beast; how do you justify doing it as opposed to alternative and perhaps more productive exercises?

Well, to start with, aiding makes you use what's left on the rack. It forces you to hone your eye and see what you might have overlooked.

Second, it makes you think about the forces on your gear from different angles. When you top-step, will that nut get pulled out? (RG knows what I'm talking about!) Can that tricam take a force from the side?

Third, it makes you see what bad rock does. Not so much an issue in the Gunks, but plenty of places where a cam in a slightly flaring placement is bomber where the rock is good, but if it's at all crumbly, a bounce test will rip it right out.

Fourth, it forces you to place far more gear per foot than you would when free climbing,

Fifth, it gives you the time to really examine it close-up.

Sixth, the motivation to get it right, with all that air blowing up your ass, and nothing but the piece holding you up!

The one alternative that I have employed is to walk along the base of the crag and experiment by placing pieces within arm's reach of the ground and bounce testing them with a long sling. (Warning: be sure to keep your face off to one side so you don't get a mouthful of metal if the piece pops while employing this technique.) I have also done this "ground school" with anchors; setting up different configurations and directions of pull with a given situation and bounce testing the set-up with with a long sling.

Certainly a valuable exercise. Especially for the sake of learning to construct multi-piece anchors.

Is aid climbing in the "off-season" to gain experience with gear placements worth the risk?

For the new leader, I'd say absolutely, yes.

RG relates a ground fall incident and GO refers to clusterf--k aspect of aiding. Often in the "off-season" placements are wet and dirty, if not icy, and thus friction is reduced. The systems management aspect of aiding certainly complicates things, especially if you are soloing, and may increase the the risk relative to free climbing for someone relatively new to trad climbing.

No way. On muddy, icy, snowy, or wet rock, you're waaaay safer aiding than free climbing. Especially on good rock like at the Gunks. Especially if you're not very good at aiding, and your placements are all no more than 2 feet from each other. Aside from the usual risks of not tying your knots right and such, your only major risks are either screwing up the belay systems, or falling out of your aiders and taking a daisy fall.

Somewhat off-thread and most pertinent to Mass climbers; GO for beginning aid climbers the start, overhanging; and finish, bulge, to P1 Jane can be tough. I think it took me 14 pieces and two damn hours the first time I aided it. I'm now down to 6 to 7 pieces and about 15 minutes. What do you think about Intertwine as an alternative initial experience at Crow Hill for someone new to aid?

Intertwine is certainly a good practice aid climb, but the slabby nature of it makes it too easy except for a first run (IMO). But I put a friend on it for her first aid climb (in the rain) and it worked out well:



I still think Jane is better, though. I think the overhanging nature of the climb is a plus, not a minus.

Thanks to all who might humor me with responses.

You bet!

GO
Posted by: Bill

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/25/09 09:18 PM

RG and GO -- Thanks for the thoughtful comments.

There was one clear advantage or aspect of aiding over "ground school", I hadn't really thought about and was most struck by , that you both touched upon.

 Quote:
Well, to start with, aiding makes you use what's left on the rack. It forces you to hone your eye and see what you might have overlooked. GO


 Quote:
But aiding a crack is more concentrated and may force you to adapt to situations you'd just walk past on the ground. RG
I suppose one could discipline one's self and be very methodical in your "ground school" approach but it certainly would be hard to simulate being 2/3rds of the way up a pitch, low on gear, and faced with placement opportunities that may not be the most straightforward. Good points guys!

 Quote:
Second, it makes you think about the forces on your gear from different angles. When you top-step, will that nut get pulled out? (RG knows what I'm talking about!) Can that tricam take a force from the side? GO
I believe you can achieve similar results in sling testing in "ground school".

 Quote:
A trad climber ought to be able to aid their way up or down out of trouble without taking all day or using up all their energy; RG
This is the main reason I perserve with my aiding.

 Quote:
So ground school might be as productive as aid climbing from the placement perspective, but it certainly isn't more productive and might be less. RG
I was thinking primarily from the point of view of the opportunity for greater "pieces placed & tested per hour" when I was referring to "productive".

 Quote:
Sixth, the motivation to get it right, with all that air blowing up your ass, and nothing but the piece holding you up! GO
Motivation is right. Having a small cam in a flare pop during sling testing in "ground school" makes much less of an impression than having it pop on lead aiding. Definitely sharpens the focus!

 Quote:
No way. On muddy, icy, snowy, or wet rock, you're waaaay safer aiding than free climbing. GO
GO what I meant was to compare clean, dry, warm free climbing with cold, wet, dirty aid climbing (which is usually the conditions I aid in, otherwise I am free climbing).

 Quote:
Placing gear and having an experienced person visually "evaluate" it is a very distant second.
I agree.

Once again a bit off the original thread, and with the disclaimer that I am a self-taught and not terribly skillful aider, do you guys place gear differently aiding then free climbing? I find myself often reaching high and making placements that are difficult to adequately, or impossible to, visually inspect. Sometimes doing it by entirely by feel. I rely on bounce testing to ensure the "goodness" of the placement before fully committing to the aider attached to the piece. My motivation is, I guess in hind sight, is to maximize my progress up the pitch. This is very different from when I free climb. Then I very consciously attempt to place gear at chest or waist level to ensure a very good look at the placement. For point of reference, since both of you lead at significantly higher level than me, I am currently leading 5.8's at the Gunks and looking to start rountinely doing 5.9's this season.
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/25/09 11:13 PM

 Originally Posted By: Bill

 Quote:
Second, it makes you think about the forces on your gear from different angles. When you top-step, will that nut get pulled out? (RG knows what I'm talking about!) Can that tricam take a force from the side? GO
I believe you can achieve similar results in sling testing in "ground school".


Hmm, I suppose you could, if you rigged up an aider and climbed up on the piece. But then you're risking a more nasty groundfall. All my groundschool consisted of simply bouncing straight down on a piece. When you top-step, you're putting a lot of outward force on the piece. Something that certainly can also happen in real lead falls (causing gear to zipper).

 Quote:
Once again a bit off the original thread, and with the disclaimer that I am a self-taught and not terribly skillful aider, do you guys place gear differently aiding then free climbing? I find myself often reaching high and making placements that are difficult to adequately, or impossible to, visually inspect. Sometimes doing it by entirely by feel. I rely on bounce testing to ensure the "goodness" of the placement before fully committing to the aider attached to the piece. My motivation is, I guess in hind sight, is to maximize my progress up the pitch. This is very different from when I free climb. Then I very consciously attempt to place gear at chest or waist level to ensure a very good look at the placement. For point of reference, since both of you lead at significantly higher level than me, I am currently leading 5.8's at the Gunks and looking to start rountinely doing 5.9's this season.


Personally, I don't place gear very differently. I sometimes place gear super-high when aiding, but only when it's the only option. Whether I'm aid or free climbing, I like to be able to see what the placement looks like. When aiding, and will often top-step (or at least one from the top) even when it's very strenous, to get at least one really good look at the piece, before climbing back down the aiders and bouncing it. Adjustable daisies would probably make this much easier, but I still just use a fifi and a standard daisy.

Also, when free climbing, I usually place the piece above my head, because A - I'm a wimp, and like having a TR whenever possible, and B - it means I can go further before feeling like I need to place the next piece.

Honestly, if you're just placing gear by feel when aiding, I don't think this has as much application to your ability to place while free climbing (except when you're forced to place blind while free climbing).

GO
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 02/26/09 12:17 AM

If one of your primary concerns is to improve your judgement of your gear, then you have to have a good view of the placement in order to make a good judgement. So I'd forgo the high but out-of-sight placements for ones you can see and evaluate before you apply the bounce test, even if you don't make quite as much vertical progress.

The main thing that slows (easy) aid-climbing down isn't a few inches of reach, it's not getting into the top steps immediately.
Posted by: jstan

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 09/14/09 08:01 AM

I saw some real aid done in the gunks at the Double Clutch roof area once. Guy walks up, clipped a pin at the back of the roof, and gently placed a 3/4' long roofing nail halfway out the OH and slung it with small parachute cord. It pulled when he stood on it so he put it in again. This time it held. He reached out to the lip and hand placed a horizontal at the lip, unclipped from the parachute cord and lowered himself to the ground. Got the first biner at the back of the roof, flipped the rope so the pin at the lip fell out. Rolled up his rope and left. Nail and the cord stayed there for probably seven years. Then it fell out. Smooth.

I tried to do aid in the Gunks. Always wound up standing on the buckets. Aid there is not like aid in most other places. Actually aiding up a tree may be better instruction. The sling you wrap around the branch or the trunk is not going to pull so you can just learn how to handle all the junk smoothly. For harder aid such as expanding flakes, you will need expanding flakes. In other areas offset Aliens, even though they have serious problems, are apparently popular because people are climbing on pin scars. Would not know. Never liked aid.

Expanding flakes can be fun though. You get a chance to think about how things work.

But Rich is right. You need to see the placement. Zippers are something to avoid. Particularly when there are a lot of horizontal holds around just waiting to take out an ankle.


Posted by: RangerRob

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 09/14/09 09:30 PM

We know you didn't like aid John. That's why we have all these wonderful free routes around here! I wonder how many of the aid routes are left to free? There's the variation of Twilight Zone (The Best Things in Life Aren't Free). I don't think that is going to go free anytime soon. There's also Spinal Traction which is being worked on. Isn't there a big roof out at the Sunbowl which hasn't been freed yet?

RR
Posted by: Dana

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 09/15/09 01:17 AM

Poops at Skytop hasn't been freed.
Posted by: MarcC

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 09/15/09 03:45 AM

Technically, the original line of Crack of Bizarre Delights hasn't been freed.

The A3 (old-school original grade) variant on Thin Slabs Direct hasn't gone free.
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: Easy aid climbing in the gunks? - 09/16/09 11:57 PM

This is a good list. Ya'll know what a list fanatic I am