Shawangunk Anchors - Wish Lists and Updates

Post your updates on the status of anchors on this thread. Be as specific as possible as to what anchors may need (ie: broken medium nut and rotten sling on p. 2 anchor of Erect Direction).

As New York is notoriously litigious, these are non-binding comments - simply observations about what the apparent status of anchors are and reports of hearsay as to what has been done to anchors.

DL

I think that is a good example of an anchor that ought to be cleaned. Anyone capable of climbing that route is capable of setting up their own anchor there. But really, a hanging belay half-way up a free pitch is itself wrong and is in this case a distant relic of the days when the climb was aided.

What happened to the anchor on the ledge of Dennis, Belly roll? Used to be a rap anchor there, none there now.

The fixed anchor at the hanging belay has been removed. There still remains a nest of two nuts connected by a small, rusty twist link. One of them will have to be drilled out to be cleaned. behind that is another nut with a broken wire, which cannot be cleaned until the first one is cleaned. Everything else is gone. Plenty of room to build a gear anchor if you wish to break it up into two pitches.

RR

why would you need an anchor on that ledge at all? you could build a hundred gear anchors up there...theres a tree off left...you can climb both climbs in less than a ropelength...and walking off from there is a far better option than rapping

its been a while so i dont know if anyone has cleaned it up but i'd wanted to go clean up the anchor on criss cross direct before i left the gunks but never got to that one...that thing was/is a mess...it could obviously be chopped but people rarely seem to climb the upper part of the route so at the very least the sling nest can be swapped out for chain and quicklinks (the chain can be used to equalize the pins provided they're still good)

Or just take it out completely and encourage people to do the entire route in one pitch. It's almost exactly 100' to the top, and the upper part is 5.8. I would wager doing it in one pitch is safer than belaying from that anchor anyway...there isn't a whole lot of gear to start the upper section.

I added a nut/sling/biner to anchor just right of Tequila Mockingbird on Sunday. The anchor is above the roof on PT Call Home and is still not great, one very rusty pin, one pretty rusty pin and a .5 tri cam whose sling is white with rigor-mortis. There's old tat combing, a newer sling draped through rings from pin to pin and my nut and sling. I did not have my knife else I'd have made it right.

We rapped that route three times after TM, Dry Martini and then again after doing Land's End (which has a terrible P1 anchor). On the last time down we passed a party with leader thirty feet above belayer on P2 of TM. It was crazy to see that their "anchor" was primarily a .25 (black) tri-cam with an oh by the way back up to one of the pins. The leader went about fifteen feet before placing a piece above the belay, risking a thirty plus foot factor two fall onto a single inadequate anchor point that would almost certainly have failed in turn shock loading the pin which had a good foot or more of slack between it and belayer. YIKES!

yeah. i think you're right and it would make it a nicer route to go to the top in one.

What the Gunks: Nice work on that rap line...I hate using that thing. I'd lover my second from the GT to avoid both of us having to use it.

Criss Cross Direct:

Use caution, as of last weekend the pitons were missing from the anchor, as were a few of the nuts, links, a biner, and a new coredellette. The remaining anchor is found small nuts "equalized" with a single quick link.

I kind of like an anchor there. Following the first move (crux) with 100 feet of rope out and a belayer out of eyesight would suck, and the route dramatically changes its nature above the "anchor." 5.8 R face climbing leads to a 5.10a exit move through a wild roof. Exhilarating, but a very different feel...

D. Lucander

I'm going to the Nears in a bit and will fix that anchor, I agree with belaying second with less rope out with crux moves right off the ground.

Well, IMO that should be pulled, not reinforced :-). There are other gear options close by and rapping in to this from the GT is yet another convenience line on a tree which we as a community really should be discouraging.

I guess I was forgetting what that anchor on criss cross is like which is pretty lame; some small wires in opposition in a horizontal eight feet above a ledge with plenty of gear options. What that anchor is for is to top rope P1 and bail which I didn't feel like leaving anything new for. I thought about stripping it all together but left it as is.

I disagree with you Ian. The rap anchor allows for descent with a single rope and cord tied loosely (not the knot) around the trunk of a tree does much less damage than people walking/standing around. Soil compaction, which leads to erosion, is a much greater threat to cliff top environments than sling anchors. Better to finish route and rap than traipse around on ledges and cliff tops.

Which might be fine IF it wasn't predicated on people only arriving at that location from below. Instead it creates a new descent point that folks topping out on other climbs will gravitate towards i.e. foot traffic, tree damage and the problems you point out at yet another point on the cliffs. I'm all for reducing rap traffic on people ascending.. it would be nice if that could be managed more effectively given the crush on popular routes on weekends. I just don't agree that slinging trees for convenience is the solution. Plus I don't think a single 60m won't get you down from the top. You end up at that dangerous rats nest with the rusty time bomb pins.

The rap line for Dry Martini/Tequila Mocking Bird really has only one reasonable option - and that is the one being discussed. It's a good descent route, really goes over no terrain that is frequently climbed.

Walking left or right brings one through thick GTL forestry. Proceeding left, one would thrash his or her way a couple hundred feet to Overhanging Layback, which means one would rappel on top of Grave Yard Shift. Proceeding right, one would go towards Credibility Gap's top out - itself an adventure to get off of.

D.L.

Well, last time I chopped that rap anchor (mentioned it in a thread a while back) I did exactly what you suggested. I don't recall any thrashing. It was a leisurely walk with time to smell the flowers. Why not just put a rap anchor at the top of every line if you want convenience? I know, you didn't suggest that, I'm just turning up the contrast so that we can see where this thinking leads..

I don't recall enough about these particular anchors to have a valid opinion, about the issues in this particular case, but...

After screwing it up initially, the Preserve quickly realized that placing bolts to eliminate the proliferation of deteriorating and unsightly rap anchors would end up being a never-ending task that would eventually bolt the entire cliff. What they turned to was the idea that a few well-positioned rap descent routes would serve the entire cliff and keep things from building up willy-nilly everywhere.

The idea makes sense, but doesn't seem to be working out in practice. Perhaps there aren't enough established bolted rap lines, or perhaps climbers will just never stop fabricating convenience anchors, with an extremely high standard of convenience being the norm; basically, as soon as I stop the delectable crux climbing on my route, I want to be able to rap immediately directly back to where I left my pack.

Ironically, the established rap lines appear to be falling into the same category as walking back along the top; too difficult, too time-consuming, and too inconvenient to utilize. Would things get any better if more bolted rap lines were added? It is hard to say, but I think that unless climbers begin to agree not to poop slingage all over the cliffs, there is little reason to be optimistic.

The existence of even substandard rap anchors seems to blind some parties to alternatives. This twig has slings on it, therefore we should rap here, and if the twig doesn't appear to be sturdy enough, then what we have is a rap anchor that needs to be improved, as opposed to one that need to be dismantled.

There is no intrinsic right to have a rap station where you want it. The cliff had virtually no raps stations anywhere for twenty or thirty years and somehow people managed to get up and down their climbs. Now the discussion is framed in terms of which stations are "essential."

The best way climbers could honor the Preserve's mission and the climbing traditions that have made the Gunks one of a dwindling number of trad crags in the US is to take the sternest possible view of added rap stations and cut most of them down.

How long would it take before the cliff top looked like the cliff base if your vision of a return to the old days were to come true? I value your wisdom enormously, RG, but I think that you are not factoring into this the sheer number of people climbing. If climbers did not rap and instead walked off of each climb there'd be tens of thousands of laps walked across the cliff top, hundreds, reasonably assuming that folks would be doing at least a couple of routes each visit. This would decimate the fragile environment atop the Trapps. There'd end up being a spidery network of social paths that would result in whole sale erosion of the thin matt of top soil and death of blue berries and trees and all else.

Short of the Preserve dramatically scaling back the number of climbers allowed in to pre 1980's levels, the cliffs are going to be chock full of climbers and our attendant impact. Frankly, to take the line of thinking further, it WOULD be best if people simply rapped right back to their packs after doing their climb. I mean this from a strictly environmental stand point. Rap anchors on "twigs" aside, I am saying that the more people's activities are focussed in areas where they are not creating new impacts, established climbs and trails, the more that the Preserve's mission is being fulfilled. I'd argue too (devil's advocate) that gang top roping, hang dogging and all sorts of other sport climbing accouterments are as much Gunks traditions as walk offs, painter's pants and swami belts.

I referred to walking back but did not and am not advocating it. Ever since on-road parking was discontinued, forcing climbers to carry everything with them to the base of the climb, walking back became impractical other than for a few routes near the Uberfall.

The lack of traffic up top has been a good thing for the environment up there, but a scenario, admittedly no longer a practical one, in which climbers walked to the base of climbs already equipped and did not return to the base would have distributed the population load over a larger region, making the massive erosion at the cliff base considerably less, and would have freed the routes from the fusterclucks imposed by descending climbers on ascending parties. Although we'll never know, I don't think it obvious that a more balanced usage might not have been better in the long term.

As for focusing impacts to keep new ones from happening, that was the Preserve's idea about established bolted rap lines, but seems to be happening is that climbers keep establishing new impacts by adding new convenience anchors.

One way of looking at this is that the Trapps is by now one giant impact and has already been sacrificed to the demands of convenience. With luck, the never-ending spread of these conveniences will help to create a generation of climbers with little or no interest in branching out to far more inconvenient areas that are now untouched by comparison.

But it is just as possible that populations will move out, and they will simply bring their current practices with them, so that newer areas will be almost immediately overrun with rap and toprope anchors; this is what happened at Lost City, and in view of climbers' overwhelming new tendency to foul their nests, I'm beginning to think that restricting climbing access to certain areas is a good idea.

As for the argument that sport climbing practices at the Gunks are by now as "traditional" as, say, having to construct your own belay anchor, something that a growing cohort of "trad" climbers are only marginally competent at, I can only say that traditions per se are of no intrinsic value.

What I think is of value is keeping the gunks as a place where future generations can still experience the best aspects of trad (as opposed to sport) climbing. There are fewer and fewer crags where this is possible; sport climbing, as Royal Robbins said, is the child that wants to eat its mother.

Was it once the norm for climbers to leave the extras, the Gatorade, foot long deli sandwiches, chips, bars, coffee, extra gear, cell phone, novel, laptop, dog, hammock, cooler, GoPro video recorders, bouldering mattresses.... in their car? I find it hard to believe. Two friends casting off quietly, leaving as much metal and plastic and noise behind, for a day of adventuring in a vertical world? Sounds perfect, my personal favorite.

Yesterday a mutual friend said in reference to this thread, "his position hasn't changed". The thing is, climbing has changed. What has changed most is the fact that climbing has become a mainstream activity. Even ice climbing has become popular. There are more and more people coming out to the cliffs and their perceptions about the games climbers play are all over the place.

One thing that's stayed largely unchanged is the general herd mentality that the most climbers have. This idea that the Trapps are a huge impact zone, at least parts in particular, is completely accurate. Areas like Frog's Head, Mac Wall, Arrow, (the Nears north of Loose Goose), these areas have become a sort of vertical city park. Parks have lots of visitors that use them in a variety of ways and they get managed to support those different uses. Some folks are going to use the Mac Wall to get their uber athlete pump doing laps on Fly Again et al, others are going bumble their way up the a first multi pitch lead on Three Pines and another pair are taking MF to the top on their way to an "El Cap" day. This is current reality and a common thread here is that people are leaving their Winnebago (er backpack) at the base of the cliff and returning to it after one or a couple of pitches of climbing.

I don't know how many rappel anchors are enough, I mean they are all "convenience anchors" in the end. I do believe that anchors most commonly used should be bomb proof and be placed so as to limit impact on natural features and on people climbing below. Bad, poorly thought out anchors should not be placed or should be removed. Many of the most ridiculous anchors are not new but ancient relics that were dumb when they were created and have been backed up with one more strand over and over leaving messy lumps of crusty tat that are time bombs.

Dialogue on this forum, in the shop and at the crag will help to establish at least some consensus as to which anchors should be fixed and which should go.

Lost City and other more out of the way places will intermittently see more visitors in the coming years, hell it's barely more than an hour to hike to even the most far flung places. Keeping them free of trash, unnecessary rap anchors and out of print or digital guides is going to take effort. The Preserve has taken steps to limit the use of both LC and Bonticou by guides, allowing only one guide with two clients per service on any given day.

The comment "How long would it take before the cliff top looked like the cliff base" ignores the fact that many climbers don't go to the top of the cliff, non-climbers, by and large, don't go to the top of the cliff, and even climbers, by and large, don't linger at the top of the cliff eating lunch, hanging out while other people climb, read books, play with their dogs, etc.

All those commas, but no terminal period?

;-)

Harvest Moon anchor no longer exists, the tree tipped over. Retreating from this climb (as well as for Honky Tonk Woman) now requires rappelling Hang Ten. Let's see how long that tree lasts.

DL

Falling from the 5.8 R section onto that anchor would be very very bad. It's a great pitch nonetheless with a very exciting exit.

There is a way to protect the second at the close to the ground crux, even if the leader is at the top, if anyone wants to talk gear. It's a bit convoluted but perhaps better than risking falling on that lousy mid climb anchor. It works for protecting the second on P1 if stringing the first two pitches of Enduroman together too. It's pretty simple really.

Nothing wrong with a little thread drift, Kent. What is your solution?

Contributing to thread drift...

I wandered onto that pitch, going too far on the p2 traverse on Broken Sling. Unable (or unwilling) to go back, I kept going up looking for gear. The exit roof looked protectable, so that's where I went and inadvertently did my first 5.10.

A possible link-up for the adventurous, I suppose. (Broken Cross?)

Drift/

First, the two climbs I mention, Criss Cross and Enduroman, are in crowded areas, and so other climbers are often hanging around waiting to climb. Recruit one.

Then the leader trails two full strength ropes. Let's call them ropes #1 and #2. Rope #1 is to lead on, and rope #2 is for rigging through a gear anchor placed at a decent rest on the first pitch. Rope #2 gets fed back down to the ground. Then the leader leads all the way to the top of pitch 2 on rope #1.

The following climber, still on the ground, ties into both ropes and climbs. Rope #1 is belayed by the leader at the top of pitch 2. Rope #2, which is effectively a top rope, is belayed by the recruit from the ground. When the following climber reaches the anchor for rope #2, the recruit is free to go and rope #2 can be dropped or trailed.

If this is done on Criss Cross the risks associated with the iffy gear at the beginning of the R section are greatly reduced and the following climber is still well protected from rope stretch and ground fall at the near ground pitch 1 crux.

If this is done on the first two pitches of Enduroman it allows the leader to follow a more elegant line, a crack that transects the Directissima traverse, rather than going up to the belay at the top of the ramp before starting pitch 2, while still protecting the following climber from rope stretch and ground fall on the close to the ground crux of pitch 1.

Another alternative is to lead straight to the top of pitch 2 and have a very strong follower, one who is very unlikely to fall at the close to the ground crux, but those two cruxes are 10a and 11c respectively. Pretty stout for most.

Drift\

The anchor on Tequila/PT Call Home is good for another couple of years now. Thinking of scrapping the tat under the roof on PT. Route looks very cool. Beta?

The Laughing Man anchor (commonly used as a mid-way rappel line from Welcome to the Gunks, Asphodel, and Credibility Gap) was beefed up with a surprisingly good nut. There's still lots of manky tat, good tat, and rusty pitons that I have no idea how to replace comprising that anchor. Presently, it has two-three pitons, two good nuts, and a crusty pink tricam.

DL

Just left of the first major roof of Ursula & Nose Drops is a fixed anchor (same height as the bottom of the Bonnies Roof crux). Does anyone know what it's for? I'm pretty sure it's left of the Nose Drop crux and right of Knockout Drops if I'm reading Gray Dick correctly. The climbing is 5.easierthan9 and the climbing is nice. The anchor is in so-so rock and consists of one large nut, a rusty angle, and an angle/leeperZ stack that is scary to look at.

cfrac,

I have no idea what that anchor is for. I've seen people bail off Bonnie's with it...

DL

Yeah it's weird.

Was up on Son of Easy-o and someone put new slings, added a new angle (the other 2 angles are about to crumble apart) and a friend. Much better than what was there before, Thanks mysterious healer of the anchor!

On the anchor 20ft from the top? Wish we had a mysterious chopper instead.

Yes, the anchor 20 feet from the top. I like this anchor because the top-out is mini rubble gully.

True that. I suspect that this is why that otherwise pointless anchor was installed. Perhaps the anchor fairy would consider removing the anchor and adding a small broom to keep the top nice and clean.

Does the anchor fairy wear a french maid's outfit and look like Katie Brown?

yes, but I find the beard something of a turn-off.

+1 for chopping that anchor

Someone tried chopping that before. Word has it that this would take some kind of chisel...Maybe Katie Brown wasn't carrying one.

DL

The more people that belay up in the rubble gully, the sooner somoene sitting at the base is going to get blasted with a golfball sized rock and sent to the hospital. I think the safety issues outweigh the negatives with that anchor. Just my opinion.

I've always belayed at SOEO anchor (backed up with a few pieces), then had my second finish the "pitch" above. This lets me see my partner on those slippery opening moves, have communication while they are under the roof, and avoid knocking rubble down.

D. Lucander

I haven't seen the recent reinforcement, but I haven't trusted that anchor for years and would never rap off it. BITD, we just used to unrope there and solo down Easy O, but those days are long past...

I agree that traffic in the gully at the top is likely to pepper the cliff with rockfall and so a legitimate argument could be made for an anchor there to keep the riff-raff off the top.

What I've done for several years, given that few of my partners will go down Easy O unroped, is to do the 5.easy traverse right and up to the ledge above City Lights/Pas de Deux and either rap from the bolts there if it is clear below, or otherwise continue traversing across that ledge to the bolts located above the midpoint of the Maria traverse and rappel from there.

The availability of this option strikes me as an excellent reason not to have a fixed anchor above Son of Easy O, but the trouble is that too many people, in the absence of an anchor right in front of their eyes, will just go on to the rubble festival above.

I second RG's suggestion to exit right, though one can walk off if City Lights is busy...
The issue is how to get the nonreaders of this forum to do so, especially the first-time or infrequent climbers - or the climbers of Easy O itself, who I think are the real concern.

Unless the rubble were somehow stabilized - but it's the climber traffic that has destabilized it.

I am certainly one guilty of using that anchor and never go the extra 30 ft to the due the danger of knock down debris no matter how careful you are. Since I usually lead that pitch and back up that anchor and usually rap first when it backed up and leave my second to clean the anchor and rap.

If climbing that with Rich I am sure that he would make me down climb but we have not had the please of doing Son of Easy O together as of yet.

I am usually one for chopping convenience anchors as they serve no purpose, but this one is a little more than convenience, protecting everyone below from the ariel assault that you takes place if one goes all the way to the top.

Cut a bunch of old manky sun bleached tat off of No Recollection and replaced it with a nice drab colored length of 1" tubular. That said, I will not comment ont eh quality of the blocks this anchor is slung around...yikes!

Headless Horseman could use some work, I was out of webbing by the time I got there. Same could be said for Silly Chimney.

d. lucander

People rap down Silly Chimney now?

Says the man who wears belay gloves just in case that unexpected factor 2 fall happens

Silly Chimney is a great way down, 1 rappel with 1 rope and you're on the ground. Useful for getting off everything from Lichen 40 Winks, Bonnie's, Yellow Wall area, and even Double Crack.

dl

But I take them off to climb down Silly Chimney.

I am occasionally partial to the brief but energetic suffering on Last Frontier. I doubt many others are but there is a nest o'crap at the anchor at the exit that could use a do-over from the anchor fairy. I've added slings, but some nice new webbing would make the place look positively inviting. btw, anyone done the upper pitches? Looked a little lichen-encrusted, purportedly 5.8 R/X?

Ian,
Have you been on Last Frontier recently? About a month ago, I replaced a bunch of webbing. There was so much mank, I could hardly fit a carabiner around the anchor. Cut much of it off, added a new piece of 1" tubular.

D. L.

Not this season. Thanks for this.

it's not a rappel anchor but how about the crux bolt on wonderland? will it ever be replaced? sente got new bolts but not the one important bolt on wonderland? it's seemed a bit questionable to me for years.

DL - thanks for the work amigo, I know you've been out there this season replacing some tat with more solid anchors.

I second phlan about the bolt on Wonderland. I've mentioned this in a previous thread on anchors/bolts. It looks like a homemade hanger and is rusty.

First time I did Wonderland I did it from way down at the bottom, which was my first 5.9, and my first R rated route. I was VERY happy to clip that bolt!

how else do people do it?

(i'm guessing they traverse in from wisecrack???)

Yeah I guess the normal route traverses in from the left and is 5.8 and not R

What's up with the new steel cable rap station at the top of Betty? Strange arrangement with frayed wire ends ready to poke anyone attempting to use it. We walked off, as usual, and did not use it.

Kathy, I wondered the same a few weeks ago (and walked off as usual). Next day I met a guy/guide named Jason? who was discussing anchor replacement with Paul Curran; I brought up the new Betty wires, and Paul said it was a "french weave" and is safe. Jason said he knew who'd been installing those, and intended to have a word with him.

I try to keep an eye on the Urusla anchor, but haven't been up there yet this year. Anyone?

seriously? someone is putting in new cable anchors? unreal

jay - dont hold back when you have those words

It may be safe, but the loose ends need to be oriented away from the rap rings and perhaps wrapped with duct tape to keep them from further fraying and poking potential users. It's a fairly unattractive arrangement, and I wonder if the pair of steel cables will do more damage to the tree than a soft nylon sling would.

Ursula may be one spot where cables might be beneficial, if they can fit around the pinch point in the rocks. Seems the nylon bits there are often frayed from the sharp rock. Haven't been on it yet this year.

that misses the point. you dont need ANY fixed anchor at the top of betty. walk off.

Anyone else think the tree on Drunkards is a bit sketchy?

Which tree on Drunkards? In the past I've seen slings wrapped around the twig below roof (at p. 1 belay) and there are usually rappel slings atop p. 2 on the GT Ledge. Then there's the odd bundle of branches growing below the roof off to the right, part of Bloody Mary. Some fools like to TR off of it...

DL

Ah.. i guess it is more the top of Bloody mary. I had never heard anything about P2 of Drunkards so I had assumed it wasn't much so we skipped it. i see now that it is actually recommended. We should have kept going up.

partner cleaned drunkards off it but I backed it up for sure.

Do you need to use that tree when coming down from Drunkards p2/3? if so my anchor suggestion should still stand since that thing is crap and in a fairly popular area.

top pitch of drunkards is pretty fun if easy climbing

easiest descent is to walk left or right to another route

Drunkard's descent options (from a pampered 30 year old)

1. Finish the route (worth doing once a year) and walk to climber's left. Rap City Lights.

2. From GTL atop p. 2: walk left and rap the bolted line just left of Maria.

Do NOT go to that tree and rap. Inspect it closely. Little to no root structure and it's being held in place by stable but less than perfect rock. I went to that tree back in my "younger" days with a 50+ year old veteran. He, a veteran Red Rock (back when it was spooky) climber and early ascentionist of El Cap) refused to rap from that tree. Lesson learned.

DL

3. A short distance to the left is the excellent 5.4 top pitch of Sixish or its 5.10 direct variation (the original aid line that gave Sixish its name).

4. A short distance to the right is the excellent top pitch of Morning After, with its Yosemite-like and, in my opinion, solid 5.8 final twenty feet.

5. If walking left to the Maria rap bolts, might as well do the classic 5.6 top pitch of Maria.

6. Another option from the top is to walk right and rap Arch from bolts. If you have two 60's, it is a single rap to the ground IF you swing left at the bottom (be careful here).

I used that tree last fall, don't remember it seeming sketchy.

We are talking about the tree on the GT ledge, yes? I'm surprised to hear this.

The tree atop the traditional pitch one, which sits below the big roof, had slings around it in the fall and I thought it was total crap.

The anchor atop P1 of Nurse's Aid is troubling. The cable around the tree has been choking the tree for years. Each year, the tree grows fatter and increases the tension in the cable. You can't see how the cable clamps are holding up because the cable is protected with hose. Granted my imagination is a little vivid (i see the cable slipping through the cable clamp each year as another annular ring is added). This anchor needs to be removed to help the tree and should be replaced with a looser cable.

It's too bad trees don't make obvious noises when they are slowly being choked to death over the course of 5-10 years. If they did, the entire cliff would be a deafening roar of sylvan death throws!

Anyone have any idea how big a bolt cutter one needs for these wire anchors?

Rich, the Betty wires? They're ~1/2" in diameter IIRC. Go for it.

No seth, I mistakenly went all the way over to the tree below the roof on Bloody Mary. It has slings and rap rings and is sketch. was easily backed up with as many cams as you wanted though.

if the jaws of the cutter are new the short (<2ft) ones will do.

hacksaw will work too. cut where the hose is covering it to help prevent fraying. some wraps of duct tape to keep it together helps too.

Oh yeah, that one is also crap. The second pitches there are all great, Bloody Mary, Drunkard's and Morning After. Next time keep going!

While you're at it, please go cut the wire anchor at the top of Baby. Thanks.

These cable anchors must take a relatively high amount of effort to install. Whoever is putting them in surely means well, maybe we could find out who it is and engage in a civil discussion about where they belong and where they don't?

When did that Baby anchor go in? I don't remember it being there the last time I was on Baby, but that was probably in 2008 or 2009... I agree there isn't a need for it there as the City Lights chains are just a few feet away and the walkoff is even better. With all that loose crap on top of Baby and crowds below, rapping there is just a bad idea.

Last weekend I did Shit or Go Blind & No Picnic and there is a steel cable anchor on the tree there as well. It looked to be a relatively recent installation, and it was put in with transparent tubing around the cable so that the cable can be visually inspected for wear. That location, just left of the Gerdie Block, is obviously another place where topping out and walking off is pretty easy to do, but I was happy to have the convenience anchor, which isn't visible from the ground.

The Baby, Betty, and Classic cliff-top anchors come and go with some regularity.

I think the crucial point is this: how can we communicate to all the people who climb Betty and Baby, but don't check this board daily, or know the cliff like the back of their hand, that there are preferable options nearby?

If we - 'we' who chop anchors - don't take steps in that direction, the anchors will reappear. On the other hand, if 'we' attempt to organize traffic, perhaps we could do some good.

Seth has a good point, that the anchors take some effort to install, and presumably that's good faith effort on behalf of the whole climbing community. Chopping those anchors without further ado is spitting in the face of that good faith effort.

Perhaps some kind of laminated card (which I think is a previously used strategy) where the old anchor was?

Just a thought.

It would be nice if the Preserve would sign those cards rather than starting a stare down or worse between climbing factions.

I agree with Julie and Seth; the cable guys have put in some effort (and invested their own money) and surely mean well.

I think the Preserve had a laminated card on the Jackie tree for a while.

The user base is now very large, diverse, and dispersed. It is not clear how to even begin promoting consensus. In the absence of consensus, we could just end up with "anchor wars." And this applies not only to slings and cables on trees, but also to the deterioration of fixed anchors and the decision about whether or not to replace them.

I doubt much can be done unless the Preserve decides to embrace a more active management role, something they have been loath to do for reasons both philosophical and legal.

I certainly did not want to start that when I began this thread - I'm only 5'5" and have skinny legs.

That said, thread drift has not plagued us too much yet. Keep posting conditions, modifications, and reinforcements.

D. Lucander

short of the preserve stepping in or local guides coming to a consensus and enforcing it through their actions and teachings rg is right that its difficult to reach consensus on where anchors should be. but that doesn't mean it should be a free-for-all.

well intentioned or not, the installation of new fixed cables is not the way forward. especially with the existence of a large number of bolt anchors, full height rappel routes, and the tried and true method of walking off. especially given that they are being placed on routes so close the uberfall area descent routes and walk-offs. especially in such close proximity to existing bolted stations.

signs arent needed for each climb. if there is no anchor at the tree directly over your climb then walk to the next set of anchors and/or walk off. end of story. put that on the pass. put it on the bulletin board. put it on the website. but lead by example. tell people. teach them. and chop stupid anchors.

Maybe if we posted a note on the bulletin board, something like:

"Dear steel cable installer:

Please check out this thread on Gunks.com:

http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/57517/1

There is an ongoing discussion about the appropriate places for rappel anchors, and it would be great if you participated.

Sincerely,

Some Gunks People"

Perhaps these cables are being installed as permanent anchors by guides? I would be surprised that anyone else would put so much effort and some money into this project. Might be worth asking if anyone bumps into them.

In my opinion, the source of this problem is that we have a 400 page guidebook that provides a plethora of routes up the wall, but no source for determining the best way to descend the cliff. I will admit that I have apprehension about descents, especially when I have less experienced climbers in tow. I do not enjoy walking the cliff edge unroped searching for other anchors which may or may not be more convenient descents, with no real easy way to determine that from the top. I know that the easy answer is to walk off and that it is certainly the answer for certain areas, but its not always the best choice.

It takes a much better undersatnding of the cliff to descend conveniently than it does to ascend. As my list of routes grows I keep finding better ways to descend the cliffs. Through this process of learning the cliff top I have undoubtedly descended via the stupid/inefficient ways plenty of times.

It seems that the mountainproject pages include alot more information on descents than has in the past. Interestingly enough, there is a mention that its best to avoid the baby tree for the bolts over City Lights.

Grey Dick has all rappel stations clearly marked.



Isn't that an essential part of climbing? When I go to a new crag or big mountain, I undoubtedly expect to be figuring out ways to descend and getting lost/off-route a bit...

Right on Welle! In my opinion the source of the problem has nothing to do with the guidebook and everything to do with the incessant modern demand for more convenience and efficiency.

Anyone can put a sling or a cable on a tree. Some of them are unsafe anchors. Others send the rappeller over areas of loose rock that shower stuff on people below. Many send the rappeller down on top of people climbing up. The guidebook shows the bolted rappel routes. You could hardly expect it to record the ever-shifting collection of anchors that appear, deteriorate, disappear, and are replaced.

Of course, the ability to find descents increases with experience. What is so terrible about the idea that experience is something that is acquired over time by actually indulging in the "not enjoyable" process of exploring? Isn't dealing with the (very slightly) unknown a part of trad climbing? Or does trad climbing begin when you step off the ground and end when you top out?

Finally, what is so terrible about walking back if the party is apprehensive about where to rap? So what if it "isn't best." Exactly how bad is it, considering that all parties walked back from all climbs (either to the Uberfall or Roger's Escape Hatch) for 40 years or so?

As an aside, isn't it a really good idea to know how to walk back just in case things go wrong in some way? (Some folks called out a rescue a while back because they were "stuck" on top at dark!) Walking back is arguably the first thing new parties should do just so they know how to do it in an "emergency."

On another subject, if the guides are placing the cables (and I want to emphasize that I have no idea whether or not they are), it would be another in a long list of examples of commercial interests shaping the nature of the climbing environment for their own purposes. First they create new impacts (which are proportional to the fees they collect), and then they "solve" the problems they created by adding bolts, cables(?), fixed pitons, and other things that eat away at the natural state of the crag.

I agree with Rich... finding your way down at the gunks is not all that hard. It is a generally flat cliff so you can just look sideways and pretty easily pick out a line of trees/ledges that will get you down. I can't imagine there are spots where you can't rap down a few route left or right of whereever you are. Sure finding the "Best" way down takes some learning but same could be said for taking certain trails to different crags at other places.

As far as walking along the top.. if you are nervous then stay on belay.. walk with a line of trees between you and the edge and if it is sketchy then sling one if you need to.


on topic-ish there was a cord around the Nice Crack Climb tree without a biner, ring, or maillion on it.. what's the point other than to have a TR anchor? the walk off is like 15 feet.

The walk off was always a pleasant way to finish a climb, let the arms rest a bit, socialize with other folks along the way, sort the gear as you walked. I even remember watching jstan coil his rope as he jogged back across the top with one partner or another (those who could keep up).

The one thing missing from the walk back is that convenient tree just above the ube, placed so well for one to grab as you jumped (or carefully stepped) down to that ledge. I suppose it finally gave in to all the manhandling.

Possibly what might help around the ube is a moratorium on rapping anywhere between the first rap station and the Keyhole buttress. And, clean out any of those unnecessary cable anchors within that zone as well.

If by "demand for convenience and efficiency" you you mean trying to limit the incessant clusterfucking, knocking down rocks, throwing ropes on highly trafficed routes, and yelling that characterizes the Trapps experience on a weekend day, then I will say that I am a proponent. I hardly feel the need to defend myself for wanting to be courteous and considerate of my fellow climbers and help them be the same for others.

I can control my actions, and you can control yours, but without an effort to help others make better decisions our collective experience suffers. I can walk off Baby all I want, but that doesnt mean other people will show the same courtesy on a busy day. I think being a propropent of the next best option is pragmatic rather than assuming everyone is going to walk off because its best.



You are making assumptions about what argument you think I am making or represent rather than what I said. I'm just of the opinion that there are improvements to the collective experience. They dont require new anchors and can be achieved through more transparent discussions of descent options. It seems you feel the need to set yourself in contrast to my comments, but I am at a loss for how they contradict.

"I think being a propropent of the next best option"

what does this mean? Most tree rap anchors are going to be on a route some more popular than others. all of the bolted rap lines are on fairly popular routes except High E. the "best" option changes on a route by route basis. It is best to look in the book, understand where you are and keep your eyes open on the way up.

what improvements do you want? the guidebook to have rap suggestions? won't happen other than what is already there. Look at mountain project or ask people at the cliff for suggestions if you need more info than that.

team up with another group going down to make it quicker. Hell even on a friday we teamed up with another group to have a full rope length and got off with 2 raps instead of 3.

You know, you bring up a great point that I've often wondered about. IS it actually faster to team up like that? Or is it a wash? Anybody want to walk me/us through where the time gets saved? Math or otherwise?

No, neither you nor anyone else have to defend yourself for that. Only thing is, you never mentioned it in your original post, and the only criteria you specifically state is convenience, as in





This is true enough as far as it goes, but your "solution" was to blame the guidebook. Perhaps Julie will start a MP section entitled Getting Down from the Trapps?



Other people reached the same conclusions I did. We can only react to what you wrote, and you didn't convey what you now say you actually meant.



This sounds good, although I'm afraid I don't know what it means. Is the problem that descent options are now discussed in a way that obscures things and "transparency" is the solution? Perhaps you could give an example of such an obscure discussion and then indicate the appropriately "transparent" response?

One of the problems, in my opinion, is that the Preserve is only batting around .500 in placing bolted rap descents. The Jackie, City Lights, Ribs, and Arrow ones go over really busy sections, and the Kama Sutra one doesn't start at the top of the cliff. Three Pines, Northern Pillar, Last Will Be First, and High E ones are better.

Not all of these are so easily found from the top either, although I think the process of searching them out is kinda fun in itself and is part of being a trad climber.

Another issue is that if people really started to use these routes to the exclusion of all the other set-ups, there would be a lot more traffic at the top, and the current lack of such traffic is continually cited as a benefit of the modern rap proclivity.

As usual, there don't seem to be any easy answers.

I think as long as you're with another pair that is efficient or can be taught real quick to be efficient then it is faster. send the first one down.. have them already putting the pull end of the rope through the next rings.. 2,3,4th down start pulling once they are off. I think overall it speeds things up because you don't have to worry about dropping another rope on the first party and i think most people would prefer to do a 60m rap over multiple 30m.

I had a plan the other day to make it even faster but i got shot down.. on the 2nd rap we only needed a single rope to get down so I wanted to rap on the extra rope Fig 8's to the anchor and then have the last person down drop that rope. It made sense to me but we weren't really in a hurry. but in the rain i would have been on that in a heartbeat.

Wording aside, my point was that there seems always a wealth of information about ways of ascending, and limited amounts for descending. As long as you don't lead into the party ahead of you, it seems to me that you have little effect on others when ascending. However, descending has safety and convenience impacts on others.



Fair enough.



I just think that rather than having people default to rappping off the Baby tree when another party is closely following and there are two parties already sharing the anchor below, it would be nice if people were aware of other options. Specifically, I feel like people see a rap anchor and feel obligated to go right back down. Maybe its naive that I hoped it was from lacking the knowledge of the alternatives.



As usual!

TradJ, teaming up will often make the total time expended for everyone less, because

(1) If each party only has a single ropes, then they can combine their ropes and often reach the ground from the top in one rap with no need for intermediate stations.

(2) If everyone uses the same ropes, then the time used to tie the knots, throw the ropes, untangle the ropes when they hang up, and pull the ropes is only expended once in total, rather than once for each party.

However, even if the total time is reduced, the first party to the station has to wait while the others use their ropes. Depending on the other parties. This would make it either a wash or a loss of time for the first party.

Less experienced parties can take a long time to get on rappel and start descending, and their rate of descent can be agonizingly slow. Joining up with such folks can seem like an example of no good deed going unpunished, but in addition to being courteous, it may actually make the process a little safer for those who are just learning.

I completely agree. I have had countless walkoffs and descents in Red Rocks in the dark, often getting lost, but ultimately always finding my way back. Its part of the adventure of climbing. If you want the fastest and most efficient way down everytime go someplace that has elevators and escalators. You can't climb by a watch. If you have people with you and worry about them getting down then go to a gym.

Guys and Gals: Go back to the original post of this thread and then please take your debate elsewhere. This is a thread for updates on anchor conditions. Please report which anchors need work, what kind of work you have done, and what kind of work you noticed someone else doing.

This thread is turning into a microcosm of American politics: lots of talking, not too much doing.

D. Lucander

Thanks Dave. Perhaps then better to rename the thread: Anchor Updates and Status Reports.

'wish lists' will bring in the element of, well, what people want, which is far messier.

Sorry, Dave, just one more comment, and that comment is aimed at bringing the focus back down to the level of individual anchors ....



When I subdivided the Trapps section on MP, one of the goals was to use each new Area page to give an overview of descent options - to help others make better decisions. It sounds like at least Jeff found that useful.

We cannot solve the global problem(s), there is no such thing as consensus, and wringing hands about "kids these days" ain't gonna help, either.

All's I'm saying is: if you're going to chop Betty's or Baby's anchor in the name of greater good - consider DOING something (different!) to communicate options to folks as they arrive at a naked tree. Not on an all-anchors-everywhere basis, but on an as-needed basis. Like, at the Baby tree. Especially if you happen to have access to a laminating machine ....

Someone wiser than me once said: the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Now, back to individual anchors, I hope I'll get to Ursula this weekend. What's the new descent from Harvest Moon, now?

Hahaha---everyone is going to want a last word! Here are my parting comments, after which I'm removing myself from this thread as an obviously subversive influence.

(1) I tried to convince Evan to create a spreadsheet-style database of anchors and fixed pro status several years ago. He never did anything with it. Maybe the answer is to host it somewhere else like MP, where Julie is actively involved in providing good information.

(2) I seriously doubt a narrative format like this can or should be kept "on topic." As for the political analogy, we can't expect to solve our political problems by just doing things without discussing the merits and drawbacks of the actions and the same is true for anchors.

(3) Julie's point about the need for better descent information if anchors are eliminated makes sense, but decorating trees and other former anchor locations with mini route cards directing folks to better options doesn't seem to me like the way to go. I have a few ideas but this is apparently not the place for such discussions.

Kind of funny to see an actual debate of interest on a gunks.com thread-- and then the thread police show up to shut it down! It wasn't even really off-topic imho, rather a natural evolution of the topic.

What a waste.

ditto. thread branch out?

Get off by doing it the old eco-conscious way like Sir Goldstone by down climbing the low fifth-classish gully to the left of the block or by belaying up top and rapping the Hang Ten tree. This tree is remarkable similar to the Harvest Moon tree - it's not going to last a while.

I don't say this often, but the top of the block is a good spot for a bolted anchor for use descending Hang Ten, Harvest Moon and (if anyone does it) Mincer.

D. Lucander

I would agree dave. If Mainline has a bolted anchor, then surely Harvest Moon, Hang Ten, etc could use one.

Mainline anchor...worst travesty in Gunks bolting program...must...keep...promise...to...shut up...arrrRRRGH!

that is a pretty lame spot for a bolted anchor.

Indeed. If one of the premises of the bolted anchor program is to reduce damage to the trees at the tops of climbs, this one fails miserably. They put bolts in next to a perfect gear anchor, and did not put bolts in on top, causing people who want to rap to still have to do it off the tree!


DUHHH!!!


Back onto the topic. I noticed yesterday that people are using the shrub/tree down and to the right of the last pitch of Shockley's, and to the left of the last pitch belay for Grim Ace Face. While the anchor material looked reasonable, the whole set up seems a little sketch to me. bad position, scrawny tree, etc. The only reason I can see that thing being there is for people bailing off of Grim Ace Face and not wanting to traverse over to the top of Shockley's or Shockley's without.

Noticed this afternoon that both anchors on Son of a Bitchy Virgin are in old shape, lots of manky webbing. Put this one on the list for things that need work. Both anchor/rappel points only need webbing.

DL

Anchor on P1 of Triangle needs new webbing. I'll replace it next time when I'm on that route.

Nice job on Laughing Man - rap anchor is much better than it was last season...

fotovult - thanks for the update, sounds like the Laughing Man anchor has lasted almost two months so far!

In sum, the current "work list" has Triangle & Son of a Bitchy Virgin - bot of which only need webbing.

DL

I brought webbing with me when I did Immaculate/Son of Bitchy Virgin last week-- some new-looking red webbing had already been added at both rap stations. There was also a newish looking cordalette that had been added at the GT Ledge station. But the red webbing and the cordalette at this station each only went around isolated branches of the multi-forked tree, so I added another piece of tan webbing that went around the whole base of the tree and cut away some of the old stuff.

That tree has seen better days, IMO. Some branches are dead/dying. It bears watching.

Also yesterday my partner added webbing to the tree atop The Main Line. Our new webbing is black, all the rest looked pretty old. We cut away several of the oldest pieces of webbing.

Interplanetary Agents is awful sun-bleached, though probably fairly low on the priority list.

FYI: sun bleached old-ass rope on top of finger locks was replaced today

Triangle got a newish piece of (yellow) webb a couple weeks back, no knife to take out the old stuff. Also, the anchor on top of P2 of Feast of Fools, anyone want to lug up a wrench and try and take that thing off? Its bomber, but will surely kill the tree given enough time. Actually, I'm not sure, I'm no arborist!

Good job, community!

Anchor atop The Nose (shared with Filipina, Boldville, and Quien Sabe) is in better shape these days.

DL

Many thanks to the gunks climber who replaced the anchors on El Camino in the Nears and also the nice new steel cable anchors on the Alphonse rap. Very nice job and shiny new steel links on both.

IMHO, Alphonse does not need rap rings - it's very close to walk off and it encourages needless rappeling and top roping in a busy area...

I hadn't been on it to see in person until today, but man that Betty anchor looks terrible. One end of the cable is pretty frayed good for poking things. I'm also not convinced a little nylon padding helps the tree much anyway when people are weighting the cable.

Maybe I'm OT, but I don't like those steel cable anchors at all. Tubular webbing is (1) cheap, (2) easy to install, (3) easy to inspect, (4) there is enough of us to maintain/remove crusty sun-bleached stuff, (5) can be removed and replaced if it actually sticks around long enough for the tree's growth to catch up with it.

Now, about having a rap-line on Betty or Alphonse...that one is too OT for me to take up.

DL

Needless rapelling? It is a way to get down from the cliff quickly. There has been an anchor around this tree for the last 20+ years so there is nothing new here. People use this rappel regularly and are used to it. Does that make it a bad thing? If there were not a cable here, there would be a tangled mess of webbing that looks like shit and very few bother to clean up. I personally like having it there and am grateful to the person who replaced the sketchy setup that was looking a little aged.

Rappelling from points on the cliff that could be easily walked-off is a Very Bad Thing. In fact, anything that has us stomping around the already-all-too-compacted soil at the base of the dwindling number of the traditional rap trees is a Very Bad Thing -- which means some of the existing bolted anchors are quite poorly placed. The number of trees that have died and fallen off popular Gunks ledges in the past 10 years is large. Soil compaction is a likely culprit. We should all try to encourage _less_ rappelling where the rap involves any stomping on or near trees on (or at the top edge of) the cliff -- not more.

I have wondered from time to time if careful hand aeration of the soil around some of the tree roots might offer any benefit; but there's no point even trying while people are still walking there. I really think there are a number of areas at and around old rap stations that climbers or the Preserve should rope off (other anchors are almost always available) to try to let the trees recover before they take the plunge.

More and more, it is turning out to be a way to get down the cliff too quickly. Since the proliferation of rappel anchors, there has been an explosion of rap accidents, including very experienced climbers.

In the case of Betty, it is questionable whether there are, in general, any significant speed advantages.

Moreover, rappellers get themselves tangled up with ascending climbers, often create unpleasant clusterfucks, and drop ropes and pebbles, if not larger things, on leaders. The Preserve, after failing to think through its bolting policies, learned fairly quickly to set up rap lines that did not go down routes. Betty is a popular route for beginners and has got to be one of the worst imaginable places to have a rap route.


None of this makes it any less poorly conceived and undesirable.


I think the cable is actually an attractive nuisance. It encourages people to rappel back down the route, people who might have at least thought clearly for a moment about it if there had been webbing.

Cables give the illusion of safety, but we know nothing of the competence of the installer and can be fairly certain that once installed, no one is looking out for the integrity of the system or thinking about the kind of periodic replacement that such installations require. Indeed, who knows how to judge the integrity of cables?

Climbers understand how to inspect webbing, and if it gets messy, all it takes is a knife to clean it up.


I personally thought about cutting it down, but found that I neither had nor wanted to purchase the necessary tools. I was concerned that less expensive ad hoc methods might fail, leaving a weakened installation, which would surely be the absolute worst possible outcome.

There should not be a cable rap anchor directly above an extremely busy beginner's route.

Last Frontier: anchor was missing, someone cut it. I was pissed because I worked this anchor during Spring 2011. There is now new single 1" tubular webbing anchor and two rap rings.

DL

Better you than me on Last Frontier. Did that years back and was happy to get it and be done. Definitely intimidating, especially if your not used to that type of climbing.

Hey folks, two questions on anchors that I'm unable to verify:

a) Criss Cross Direct. A new report says the anchor there is now "fine", but Dave (Luc.) had previously reported it as "now only a couple of nuts all facing for a leftward pull and "equalized" with a cold shut. Pitons and some of the nuts are gone.". Can someone verify that it's improved from this state, & specify the improvements? New hardware?

b) Snooky's (yes, it's killing me to have to ask!) - "Minty P2 and Snooky's Return P3 trees are dead and webbing and rings are no longer on them.". Can anyone verify this, or the current state of things up there?

Tx.

Not sure about the pitch counts in (b) (and sorry you can't go up there and check for yourself just yet). I suspect you mean Minty P3 and Snooky's P2. The tree at the top of what I would call either P1 or P2 of Snooky's (depending on whether or not you belay at the bolts) has been inadequate for a while, and I think most people who do not go all the way to the top are walking over to the tree at the top of Tipsy Trees, which was ok earlier this season but which will eventually be killed by climber-induced soil compaction and erosion, as so many Trapps trees have been.

If memory serves, last time I was up Minty, there was barely a trace of the tree that used to be there.

Silly Chimney Rappel line update: old tight old webbing (choking tree?), it's been replaced with new material.

Silly Chimney needs a rap anchor?? WTF????? Aren't you guys supposed to be climbers? There are descents in the Tetons, Yosemite, and all over the world that are far more hairball than SC.

True. Generations of climbers soloed down Silly Chimney. But solidity on easy ground, nowadays the mark of someone with mountaineering experience, is no longer a given for all climbers.

Many now learn to climb hard without ever climbing easy, and many never actually climb down anything, and so there is now a significant group with no experience in unroped scrambling or unprotected 4th class leading.

Rappelling looks safer to these folks, and maybe it is, in spite of all the accidents involving bad anchors and uneven ropes that have replaced years of almost entirely incident-free soloing.

It doesn't seem possible that unroped downclimbing could really be safer than rappelling. Perhaps the distinction is that the unroped climber attends fully to the task at hand, whereas the rappeller, engaged in an activity that is as unforgiving as soloing, but has become routine and apparently trivial, is more likely to have a momentary lapse of attention.

For what it's worth, there was moldy webbing on Silly Chimney when I started climbing at the Gunks in 2005. I'm no forensics expert, but I'd bet that this rap line has been there all millennium. It's a nice way to get to the ground in one rappel from Double Crack, Airy Aria, Bonnie's Roof, and Ursula.

DL

There was no anchor there in the 70's, 80's or 90's. And I fixed your quote for you.

Thanks for correcting me, Retro. You might be interested in knowing about a really neat device called the ATC. It makes rappelling without a thick wool coat that the dulfersitz body rap necessitated quite pleasant. Check out a newer version of this apparatus at <http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/shop/climb/belay-rappel/atc-belay-rappel-device>

DL

Even newer than the ATC is the 2004 guidebook, which gives 3 stars to a 5.5 nearby and 2 stars to a 5.6 nearby. This was not the case for the guidebooks in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

I can not place the timing of the trend from walking off to rapping off but I imagine it coincided roughly with the placement of bolted rap anchors circa 2000, which accelerated the loss of downclimbing skills among new climbers, as well as shifting the trend for those uncomfortable downsoloing with 150' of air from using walkoffs (down Roger's) to raps, and from walking 3 minutes to a rap (High E) to looking for a rap within 50 yards.

Added a quicklink to the fixed nut on Bonnies P1 anchor so it could be used with the thread. The thread needs some newer webbing i think.

Jake, I don't understand the advantage to having a quicklink fixed to the nut when you can clip a carabiner to it if you want to use it and remove the carabiner when you are done. I haven't been up there in a couple years though.

Maybe he is suggesting threading the quicklink so that it can be included in the anchor for the purpose of rappelling? But I've never seen anybody rappel from there.

The bolted rap anchors, for the most part, replaced makeshift anchors already quite established. The bolts accelerated trends like top-roping and the "single-pitching" of formerly multipitch climbs, but rapping rather than walking or downclimbing was well-established before the bolts, although it too became even more common once the bolts were in.

My theory is that the real impetus for rap descents was the banning of parking on 44-55. It used to be easy to return to your car in between climbs by walking back to the Uberfall. Hardly anyone carried a pack of gear to the base of anything. The removal of parking to remote locations made it necessary to carry your stuff to the base, and once that happened, returning to the base as quickly and efficiently as possible made rapping the method of choice.

You are on the mark, RG. I might have carried water with me but always brought it up the climb. Likewise we almost always carried a pair of shoes to walk back down and on to the car for lunch or liquid refreshment. We never brought more than a candy bar to the cliffs when we could park closer.

Yep, Had to rap off since my partner could not pull the P1 crux roof and then fell into space and had to be lowered to the ground.

There is a mid point anchor since a 60m won't make it to the ground also. It had one newer piece of webbing on it though.

Is this your partner?

He needs to learn the art of prussicking!

Yep or to call for slack if the rope is pulling him out of the corner. a lot easier to give out slack before falling. or to evaluate your climbing level better since someone who 'can follow .8-9 and maybe more" should not fall on P1 bonnies. especially since after that he A0'd following Columbia and about pumped out following MG's

Curmudgeon if you were part of the guys who helped him get back to the rock Thanks.

Even the best of belayers can pull their partners off the rock. I found myself hanging in space this weekend under those circumstances (however the climb was more meandering & we were using doubles), and prusickked my way back onto the rock. Regardless of how hard this guy says he can climb, prussicking is a basic skill.

Still - sucks that he was left dangling! Hope you guys had a great time anyway.

No c in the word prussik.

And there is only one "s" in prusik. It is named after Dr. Karl Prusik.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prusik

RR, you been hangin with Smike too long?

Apparently, neither of us can spell.

Nice.....I got a laugh out of that. I try to be the Spelling Police and I get the smackdown....gotta love it

That is quite ways to go prusiking - anyone who's done it knows that prusiks are only good in theory. Either carry a gri-gri 2 or some sort of mechanical ascender (WC Ropeman is small and light), or the leader could've helped - there seems to be enough rope to throw a biner down to do an assisted raise.

The slow, sickening spin of an all prusik free hanging rope ascent only counts if you go at least a half rope length. Less than that just doesn't get your money's worth.
Having fallen out of a couple of big bombay chimneys and off a big overhanging face has led me to carry a Tibloc all the time. It really makes the whole thing a lot easier and makes setting up a haul for the second a piece of cake with an auto-block.

I tried to ask that (lower my rope) after I couldn't get the ATC unlocked and was quickly told "no, i'm waiting for them to come up" he did not want to hear any more. So, since i was on a quite comfortable ledge and he was the one hanging I said whatever you want.

A Ropeman is 5 1/2 oz? Guess theyre appropriate if you think your really going for multiple long jugs, but how often would (do) you do that? Do you carry two of them? Id recommend a knot variation like the Klemheist before I started carrying mechanical devices heavier than a TiBloc.

The prusik is a thing not action. It is a type of friction hitch that can be used to ascend a rope amongst other uses. Though a foot or so of skinny cord tied in a loop is often referred to as a prusik, it is not (until it is). That piece of cord can be used to make a prusik as well as other friction hitches like a bachman, klemheist or autoblock. I like to refer to the skinny cord I carry as a rescue loop, just to keep my options open.

Climbing the rope with a pair of friction hitches is hard work but actually works great, is more than just "good in theory". It takes practice and some real fitness to master but is totally cool to do and incredibly handy to have in your bag of tricks. If you are going to climb a long ways up a fixed line consider tying hard knots (eight or overhand on bight) below the hitches every 3 or so meters and clipping into your harness so that if those skinny cords fail you won't fall all the way back to where you started. A clove hitch works well too.

If you want some instruction on friction hitches and other tricks consider coming to the FREE clinic I am doing before the 13th Annual Climbing Film Festival on October 8th @ 5:30 in the Uberfall (movies are in town). Even if you don't want instruction stop by and say hello as I have done these things for years now and the turn out is generally kinda weak.

Did I mention that it's free?

Not true at all. They are quite effective and workable, and super light to carry. Recall the number of big walls that were done with prusiks on the FA.

Retro is right; folks used to prusik thousands of feet. Beckey showing how its done on the East Face of Snowpatch Spire, 1959.



Being efficient is mostly a matter of knowing how to set up the right length slings.

I think the real issue in all this is the stupid "guide" plates. First they pull you off and then they lock up and can't be released. I hate those things.

You only need 1 and still use a cord/sling for the second one. Now lighter Gri Gri 2 are actually pretty nice to carry on multi-pitch climbs (not in the mountains of course, but at a crag).


Have you prusiked on a wet rope in a rain or on iced up rope?


True. I also find that I have to readjust the number of wraps on my autoblock (for rappels) depending on how skinny/fat the rope is (I'm used to skinny so I tend to overwrap) I suspect that would be the case for ascending too, then you'll have to readjust the length of the foot sling too, no?

Wet, yes - an extra wrap can make them work if they're slipping. Iced up? No - hell, that can be just as problematic with Jumars or other mechanical ascenders, too.

I would image that neither of those devices are likely to work on 9mm double ropes, which is what I normally use and have had to ascend. And come to think of it, I don't use a prusik. I use a klemheist, which is even harder to spell.

So, I 'klemheisted' after I got pulled off the second pitch of a climb last weekend.

I'm inventing my own climbing terminology as we go along.

I think the key to effective improvised prusiking is to have whatever is hitched to your harness able to move up instantly and grab. So on the harness I'd use a gri-gri (but this won't work for prusiking up rappel ropes), one of the the %$#@&ing guide plates I just hated on above, or, my favorite, the misnamed Garda hitch, better-named the alpine clutch, fabricated from a pair of carabiners.

Hanging from your harness, you can comfortably futz with whatever knot you are using for the foot loop and move it up. As you step up, you haul rope through whatever you are using as a clutch and you are instantly stable and hands-free at your next position.

To use this system with the Garda, you have to have two nice-sized lockers, which almost everyone has on them nowadays, a prusik knot cord, which most climbers also have for a rappel backup, and enough slingage (say three over-the-shoulder runners) to arrange a foot loop. This last item can be the rub; it isn't unusual to see a second starting up a pitch without anything that could be used as a foot loop. Of course, if the party is using cordelettes, there is no problem.

In almost everyone's hands, I find guide plates provide a very inferior belay for seconds who want to climb the pitch without being pulled, not to mention the fact that the plates encourage belayer inattention. (Eat your lunch while belaying! Change clothes! Zone out until your second takes a legitimate leader fall from all the slack you've left!) Unlocking a guide plate when the second is hanging free can be very difficult. In some cases, if the plate is pulled against the rock in certain ways, its ability to tilt may be blocked off and unlocking will not be possible, and then a full-on belay escape is the only option for lowering.

The devices are a solution to a problem that didn't exist. But more and more climbers are learning outdoor climbing while belayed by these plates, and so don't even know what a good belay is like. They expect to end up on tension if they step down, and accept the idea that if they have to reverse lateral or diagonal moves, they are likely to be pulled off.

Wonderwoman, if you are going to prusik up double ropes after a belayed fall, it makes more sense to prusik on just one strand and be belayed with the other strand. That way you don't have to tie back-up knots in the rope to protect yourself in case the prusiking system fails in some way.

That's exactly what I did. I ascended the rope that was clipped into the next piece of gear, while my belayer took up on the other rope. I didn't have to go far to get back on the rock, thank god. But there have been instances where I've had to prusik for longer than I would have liked. It's tiring. It wouldn't make any sense to try to ascend both ropes, especially when they were going in different directions. Unfortunately, I am not a prusik n00b.

About that mid point anchor. Apparently the quick link won't do you any good anymore:
http://www.gunks.com/home/bonnies-roof-rappel-unsafe/#comments

Apparently, the Erect Direction hanging belay anchor has reappeared. Convenience anchors are like unwanted fire rings, they just keep getting rebuilt, no matter how many times you break em down.

I felt pretty damn happy to clip that anchor a few years ago...

On a related note, somebody fixed up the Balrog anchor: one nice piece of unobtrusive black webbing wrapped neatly around the tree, backed up with the same rusty ass nut a few feet behind and built into the system. Only one piece of nylon on the system, bring a back-up if it spooks you.

There's a useless runner on the GT above Arch, would have cut it but we were in a rush. Ties off a small leaning tree and encourages a ridiculous rappel when a chain station is less than 30" right.

Jean could use a 1-up on webbing. I had no tubular with me, but it would certainly be nice to have something from this millennium up there.

DL

Broken Sling: The fixed mank up on p. 1 is looking pretty weird. A few of the nuts are just hanging there for the taking, bring a knife to cut them from the old webbing. Don't know who would use this thing, it's too high for the obvious belay stance. Maybe for doing the Direct finish?

D. Lucander

It makes a nice pro piece for the traverse, presumably avoiding the F2 onto the belay. Maybe it was too obvious, and it's easy to get a functionally equivalent piece in, or would one have to get all the way up there, then come back down????

Whatever its use, the Broken Sling "anchor" presently consists of 5 nuts, two of which are dangling from old webbing.

DL

Dave, people use that fixed mank in order to toprope the first pitch with no drag, and thereby avoiding the actual crux of the climb, which is P2. If you were going to do this in two pitches, why on earth would someone want to hang on a jingus anchor when there is a wonderful belay ledge 10 feet below?

I really have no idea why that anchor is there. I'm afraid to hack it because Lynn Hill might kick my arse - saw her tr'ing off it a few years ago.

DL

that thing confused the heck out of me the first time up but i may not be too bright. great climb.

I cleaned some crap from right of PR/left of GrimAce P1. Crusty cord, rattly abused nut, a still fixed old friend and a small tree (still fixed as well)

couldnt really figure out why it was there. Glad someone got the day glow webbing from the tree left of Jane.

Why won't the Bonnie's Crap die! Zombie "anchors"

cuz
http://www.gunks.com/home/bonnies-roof-rappel-unsafe/

the midpoint up P1 needs to go away.. the crap on P1 belay isnt necessary either. The rap off Ursula is easier and safer.

The 2d pitch anchor on Falled on Account of Strain is pretty crappy. I refused to rap off of it. The resident pieces are a big rusty bong (probably fine), three old rusty pins (impossible to evaluate), and two equalized nuts, one of which has a cable that looks like it is close to rusted out.

If the gear were the only area of concern I think I would have used it but the slings/cord connecting the pieces are all old, stiff, and faded. If you go up there bring some new webbing or cord. I didn't have any with me.

We bushwhacked to the GT Ledge and descended from the Sticky Gate tree instead.

There was a note on MP today that the Last Frontier anchor is now gone.

Can anyone justify the slings and rings on the first tree on RMC? If you rap from there, you haven't even done the crux. And if you get to the good ledge with the tree/slings higher up, one rap reaches the ground; no need to stop at the lower tree.

untie and reuse at least the rings somewhere?

So...in sum:

Last Frontier's lower anchor is gone...again. Instead of the chockstone, the tree higher up after much easier climbing has a "new" anchor.

Obnoxious RMC/Jame anchor is alive and well

Falled on Account of Strain could use a little work (new webbing, remove old nut, add new nut)

Bring a knife up Bonnie's Roof

DL

If anyone does Dry Heaves they should also bring a knife and some webbing.. that anchor was scary but it was dark and late when we got off so we just backed up the first rap and trusted it enough for a second.

Good on you for doing the second pitch, Jake. I think that anchor is scary because most people just do the first pitch of Alley Oop and Dry Heaves to the bolts. I am as guilty as anyone.

Bolts? we didn't see any bolts. perhaps that is why it was such a shitty anchor. like i said... it was dark. leader didnt have headlamp on lead.. i followed poorly with a headlamp on P1.. slipped on the traverse when a foot blew off the smears :P got past the roofs and traversed left to the tree with slings. only did P1.

nevermind then go to the bolts not the shitty tree anchor.

Oh, yeah, use the bolts next time! Maybe you used an anchor above Balrog/Bullfrog?

Won't be a next time for me... it has no appeal to me at all.

must have been Balrog..we went right over that big roof on the way down.

This is a really good question, about one of the most visually apparent anchors out there.

JakeDatc - sounds like you hit the Bullfrog anchor, as Balrog is waaaaaaaaay left of Dry Heaves. Rapping the Bullfrog roof instead of Dry Heaves sounds about right. If you're interested, it goes at 5.12a and would be one of the most popular routes at a crag like Waimea.

All the second and third pitches of Alley Oop, Cakewalk, and Dry Heaves have little appeal. Compounding the low-angle, dirty, easy climbing is a descent that is best done by walking the cliff top all the way right to the Madame G rap. I guess they're good if you're looking for solitude on a busy weekend.

Sorry for the thread drift...

Quite the nest on Bonnie's Roof 12/3. The only newish looking thing was the nut with dark yellow cord on the right. The pin seemed pretty snug but old. I followed the wild direct finish which I hadn't done in twenty years. What a blast! I could not believe how empty the cliffs were on a sunny nice weekend day.

Yea, I don't see why the threaded junk is necessary. There is the Pin and multiple cam placements up there. slings and the cord should get tossed imo all looks like shit.

Cable anchors: Love 'em or leave 'em?

I for one am not a fan. Is it stronger and more durable than a bunch of tat? Sure, it's plenty strong. Is it stronger and more durable than the tree it's around? In my mind it is a death sentence to the tree. Although I'll say any tree used to rappel repeatedly has a death sentence. It just seems somehow harsher, to my untrained eyes.

But the cables are freaking everywhere. I mean beating along the cliff top you will stumble onto them.

A lot of effort went into putting these here by someone with the best of intentions I'm sure but I am not sure these anchors are suitable for such a high use climbing area...

I don't like them. They are semi-permanent, violating the traditional idea that anyone can place anchors and anyone can remove them. This means that someone makes a decision for all users and the Preserve itself about how the land will be used.

Although the cables probably last for a very long time, I don't know any way of forming an opinion about how reliable they are, and the ones encased in garden hose hide most of the cable away from evaluating eyes.

When they are installed someplace like the top of Betty, where there really shouldn't be a funnel channeling everyone back down that route, it becomes clear that the judgement of the installers can be poor; nonetheless the difficulty of removing the cable forces everyone else to live with it.

The one thing I doubt is that the cable is any more damaging to the tree than slings are. The real culprit is soil compaction, but to the extent that the cable draws more rappellers to the location, it might still be responsible for hastening the demise of the tree.

"You forgot your socket wrench? "

Yeah, I know, its one of the ten essentials, and I didn't have it with me. My bad.

But even with one, I'd be really hesitant to tamper with a cable, because I'd be really afraid of not being able to get it off (bolts rusted, for example) but yet somehow weakening it or otherwise making it less reliable.

The right type of cable cutter is very expensive and doesn't exactly fit in a chalk bag. I actually spent some time checking that out.

I hadn't even thought of these anchors in the light of your first point till now. I've never installed or dismantled one of these things. Who has? I'm pretty mechanically inclined so I know I can but it's really forcing the issue. Like do I need a tool bag? Big ol choppers? Blowtorch?

Soil compaction is indeed the real death sentence of any tree used to rap, whether it is webbing, cable. The cable that has gotten me all huffy on the internet is at a point where the tree has outgrown it's cable. I wonder how that will affect the tree, and if it will speed it's demise.

I guess if you botch the job you can tie in some webbing.

If the cable (or slings) are tight on the tree, it (they) will kill it. If installed loosely, there will, of course, be intermittent pressure on a small arc at the back of the tree when the anchor is loaded, but most of the bark should be unaffected and so the tree should be ok.

Did anyone ever find out / talk to the person installing the cables? Julie mentioned talking to a guide named Jason(?) who knew who was installing them. Can anyone track them down and reach out for a discussion? Maybe they really have been insulated from anybody disagreeing about how great the cables are. Or maybe they just aren't bothered by the dissent.

Nut on Bonnies wasn't there yesterday. Pretty sure everyone just thinks it's left or "can't get it out" fixed and cleans it. There is a .75 C4 spot right next to the piton so i don't think it is worth people putting a nut back in the crack

there were cables on Baby P2 these were threaded through some webbing so it was less obvious it was cable.

If it was Jason, a guide, then this should be easy. As far as I know there is only one Jason guiding (legally, anyway) at the Gunks, and I am certain some regular on gunks.com knows him well enough to verify and get further details.

Perhaps just pointing out Preserve policy:
"Leave only rock-colored slings at rappel stations."
Neither cables nor garden hose would seem to qualify...

I can't wrap my head around it.

A. It takes a lot of equipment and effort to install one of these cable anchors. This points to a guide being the likely culprit, although of course it isn't dispositive.

B. On the GT Ledge above Feast of Fools is such a butt-stupid place for such an anchor that it can't be a guide who installed it, right? And no guides are taking people up the second pitch of Feast, are they?

Chopping them would get whoever put them up out in the open pretty quick as they would probably start asking questions

that is a last resort north conway kinda solution though.

Well, I personally am talking about two separate beasts right now I believe. The anchor above feast of fools has been there a long, long time. Long enough to choke the tree. The other issue we are talking about is the sudden proliferation of these anchors. Separate issues in my mind, because of the difference in timing. Perhaps the same person has been installing these for years but?

I have actually met the fellow who was installing so many of these lately. It was late last season and my partner had met him before. He was heading out that day ( with considerable burden ) to install another anchor or two before weather moved in. At the time I took it at face value. I didn't even have an opinion on these anchors at the time. Anyway, he seemed like a hard working, well intentioned, community minded fellow out doing a good deed. As I recall the stated pro of the cable was that year after year you didn't have webbing piling up in huge tat anchors as people continued to add new web but failed to bring a knife and cut out any of the old. Basically a maintenance free anchor...

I am going to chop the cable above feast of fools, that is a big freaking tree to kill. But I am going to tie in new webbing. Contrary to Seth I think this anchor is available and useful, for example on a Saturday when tossing a rope down arrow will implicate you in a giant cluster F.

As for beginning to chop the rest? I'm not going to pretend I've got balls enough or even want the potential drama in my life to start that. Right now this is a one sided conversation with a few voices in agreement. The gunks climbing community is much larger than what is represented here and I think we need a little more input. That said I may also post up a little step by step tutorial for anyone interested after I take care of the Beast Feast Tree.

The Feast of Fools one is, I think, older (not these new French Weave ones). At least if it is the one I am thinking of (on the tree by the start of the last pitch of Easy V) it has been there for years while the new weaves seem to have sprouted over the last year. And according to another thread:


Seems like that one should go as it is girdling the tree. I'm no arborist and I have no idea how it could be removed without hurting the tree, or if it is already too deep and the tree is doomed.

Yup that's the one I'm talking about chopping.
I believe I used the words "I'm no arborist" once when talking about this anchor
Anybody know an arborist? RR, don't you know a tree guy, you were going to ask about that other thing for me? Will ripping this thing out be counter productive? Maybe the best thing would be to remove the tension but not the cable itself?

At the same time I'm inclined to believe a tree can put up with a bit more abuse than what removing this would do.

I will email my friend Tim.. he is an arborist and climber.

Girdling a tree means cutting through the cambium layer of the tree. The cambium is where water and nutrients are transported, and it is a very thin layer right uner the bark, and outside the wood. If this layer is compromised around the entire diameter of the tree it is equivalent to pinching off someone's esophagus. The tree in question is a white pine (pinus strobus) I believe. It's a decent size, and the bark is on the thicker side in that species, unlike a black birch or red maple that has very thin bark. crushing the bark 1/4 to 1/2 inch all around my not yet be killing the tree, but it is certianly stressed, and will eventually die.

Removing the cable will enable the cambium to recover and start transporting nutrients the way it should. I don't see any harm in removing the cable. In fact, I think it should be removed, and I have a bolt cutter that would probably do the trick.

I'm no Arborist however......I'm just a gimp of a climber, so everything I say is suspect.

I hope an arbortrary concensus can be reached.

I wasn't positive girdling was the proper term - but when searching for effects of a tight cable on a tree I found a discussion that seemed to indicate that is what eventually happens with a cable as the tree grows.

Arbortrary! Lol.
Rob, you are either just as much the nerd you appear to be or the best bullshitter known to man. But there ain't no way you getting a bolt cutter in there. EMBEDDED cable. It's luck that the nuts on the clamp are facing outward.

A cutting wheel on a cordless drill will cut the nuts off anything, or dive in to also cut the cable out, depending on how sunk the cable is into the bark, it could be difficult to remove the cable completely.

I saw Jason maybe a month ago and he is no longer guiding. The need for real money has won him over.

ok here is what he said
"I need a picture, but the tree will form meristematic tissue (cambium) around the cable. Technically the tree is being strangled, but some species are resilient. If they want to get it out, they will need bolt cutters, hammer, and chisel

The can also just cut a piece out and the links and let the tree compartmentalize the rest of the cable "

so.. it sounds like maybe just taking the bit with the rings out would be easiest? then let the tree absorb the rest.

Talk about a fixed gear bicycle!

That is true Jake..there are other trees here and there at the base with remnants of slings growing out of them...most likely the result of a girdled sling that the tree was able to grow around successfully. Still, there is no reason for it to be there and it will probably kill the thing in all liklelihood.

Yea, if you (or whoever) can get all of it that would be the best. but it seems like if you at least remove the constriction of it so that when it gets wider the cable will be able to move with it then it would be ok.

Ya Rob, hobble yer arse up there.

haha wasn't thinking about that.. rob don't go killz yourself to save a tree..

I'm a tree hugger. I hug every tree I cut down for firewood

That thing is outta there... bring a sling next time you do suppers ready. The only thing I saw you huggin was that whiskey bottle

Nice, Good job.

...and remove it when you're done top-roping.

Parker....you're only half correct. I'm also hugging a nice bottle of Petron tequila

Nicely done!

I'm sure that tree would thank you if it could speak.

I'm reminded of a song:
"If trees could walk, they'd stomp the hell, out of lumberjacks. If trees could walk."

I'm joining in on the anchor thread. Kinda new to Gunks.com, though I've been climbing here since early 90's. Just went back and read to some of the early pages and want to add info and ask questions.

First off - I'm a guide named Jason(previously mentioned in this thread?). The only cable anchor I have ever put up is on top of No Picnic. It is a cable anchor encased in thick clear hosing with 4 crosby clamps and 2 quicklinks.(I used to direct and repair ropes courses) I did so only after speaking with Frank and other climbers as to their thoughts. My reason for doing so was that the webbing anchors were being removed from it at an average of at least 3 times per season. When they were removed, people were rapping off of the tree and girdling it. I did this to save the tree. Now people back it up with the occasional sling and it doesn't get removed, thereby saving the tree. I'm okay with that.

I'm curious to know your thoughts on this anchor. I'm serious about wanting feedback. I have a few more of these anchors ready to be used if the occasion should arise. They are not cheap and I am happy to install them but only to help protect the environment (trees). I'm also happy to maintain them.

I am NOT a fan of the cable anchor that was installed on Betty. I know this to be strong enough for a rap, but it's so manky looking to the untrained eye and it shreds skin, rope and webbing with it's exposed cable ends that, I believe, it does more harm than good! The installer of this anchor had good intentions but, IMHO, left behind something that we can learn from and most people are afraid to use. If it is decided a good idea, I'm willing to replace that anchor with my own setup like the one on No Picnic.

As stated in a different thread, I added a pin to Son of Easy O a year or two ago and removed a couple of tri-cams and perhaps an old pin. I'd like to remove the old tri-cams and dead cam garbage, but I'm confused as to how. Any ideas? My next task, when I remember to bring it, is to add a quicklink to that new pin on the right and redo the webbing.

I was also considering completely removing the pin in the rooves on the second pitch on SOEO as it's tweaked out to the side and compromised and completely unnecessary with modern gear. Thoughts?

Any thoughts on other anchors that need help?

Another concern that I have is the replacement of individual pitons like the ones on Classic that should be replaced very soon. The second pin on that route is a cause for concern as I question whether it can be banged out without breaking the exposed section completely off. Thoughts? Is there a gear placement that I never noticed rendering that piton useless? Any other pins that help to maintain the route's protection rating need replacing? Anybody have pins to donate?

-Jason

Thanks for your contributions Jason. Your cable is just fine. If you wanted to remove some unecessary pins I think M.F., Birdland, and Coex would be fine candidates. If the pin on Classic becomes totally worthless a stick-clip could be left at the base.

Thank you TrappDyke. I'm not really looking to remove just any pin that seems unnecessary as I'm much more interested in replacing pins that are trashed and maintain a protection rating. Perhaps I misrepresented my intentions. Sorry about that.

The one on SOEO was at a bad angle the last time I looked at it. Don't want anyone to clip a shitty pin thinking it's a Gunks bolt! It doesn't need to be replaced as it's an awesome horizontal and easily protected with modern gear. I'm not so sure about the pins on Classic. They might actually need replacing instead of removal to maintain the PG rating.

No Picnic can be walked off in less than a minute. (Just sayin')

How about the the pin on Fat City Direct?

Mike, agreed! Unfortunately, that didn't seem to stop people from rapping off of those two trees during the times when that anchor was removed. I was paying attention and noticing fresh rope marks before I replaced the slings(maybe 4 or 5 times over a few years). Then, after consulting Frank, I put up the cable.

FWIW - I'm probably gonna replace that 1/4" cable with a 3/8" in the next month. Gonna make the ends a bit longer and wrap them with duct tape as well.

Can the pin be replaced with something better? Is there gear there somewhere that I missed? I haven't been on it in over a year and don't remember it's condition except to say that I was less than thrilled to clip it!

I haven't been up there recently. I remember the pin as being a small angle, which means that a cam might fit in there if there is enough room for it. Probably a C3, not an Alien.

Of course, that would return the difficulty of the pitch to its original state at the FFA, when Gary Brown had to hang there and place the pin (no, it was not placed with aid).

The idea of returning the climb to the state of the FFA is probably not going to appeal. I think a decent pin can be placed there, provided one can extract the current resident without breaking it off.

[quote=rg@ofmc
The idea of returning the climb to the state of the FFA is probably not going to appeal. I think a decent pin can be placed there, provided one can extract the current resident without breaking it off.

[/quote]

Pin or gear, either would be good. At least you would have something you could rely on with confidence as opposed to hopping the old pin won't break. Unfortunately a very small minority of our community actually can competantly remove and replace pitons.

Check the OP, can this thread go back to discussing the STATUS of anchors?

I've been very concerned about that 2nd pin on Classic for a long time. I can bend it with my fingers. It's decoration-only by now, and given that Classic is a very popular moderate, should be a high priority. That pin protects against groundfall from a close-to-the-grade move, and protects seconds from a swing into blocks as they work out the first move.

Thoughts, though? I am also very concerned that it will break off in situ. There is no gear there. A bolt would be just ... heresy and cringeworthy. That's the extent of my deep thoughts.

Funkness time for that mank.

Chip is right, funking gives the best hope of not breaking the pin off and rendering the crack useless. I'd do it myself but I'm hobbled for a few months with a ruptured ACL repair.

So sorry to hear that, RG!

Ruptured ACL?!? When, where, how? Hope you are de-hobbled soon!!

RG were you out shagging flies during batting practice again? Sorry to hear about it! Get well soon.

Heal fast, RG!

Haven't climbed Classic since 1985 and the pins were scary then. I'd be happy to pay for new pins and/or give a belay if someone's interested ...

Thanks Julie and others. I did it by jumping from 4-5 feet up onto a gym pad. Landed awkwardly on one foot because I jumped from a wide stem. My ankle dug into the pad and rolled and that displaced my knee enough to rupture the ACL, tear the medial meniscus, and sprain the lateral collateral tendon.

My repair is an allograft, which means it came from a cadaver. I've decided this means I have a ZombKnee, and of course have been careful to check the organ donor box in the driver's license form, since now I'm sorta obligated to give back, if you know what I mean.

I know of two other climbers who have done almost exactly the same thing in the last year. I suspect that cushy pad landings, wonderful as they are for total wipe-outs, may be more dangerous for the knees than something firmer.

Rehab is a long and boring process, as some of you know all too well. I do it religiously. If there are no setbacks, I might be able to do at least some easy outdoor climbing this Fall.

Hurts just to read about and goes to show that a mere gym pad is no sure safeguard from injury.

Get well soon RG!

sorry Rich. best of luck on the rehab. another reason bouldering sucks. maybe you have more time to drop wisdom on the unwashed masses of g.com

Wombat: sorry Rich. best of luck on the rehab. another reason bouldering sucks. maybe you have more time to drop wisdom on the unwashed masses of g.com

RG: It is a little-known fact that garlic salt neutralizes millipede toxins.

Hmm.

Into every barrel of wisdom some rain must fall.

Was up on erect direction this weekend - been a while but someone clipped all the tat but left a bunch of the clipped nuts where most build the hanging belay. A few were left unclipped but they're hard to assess - bit of a mess under there with a bunch of pointy rusted wires jabbing at you.

It's possible to build an anchor with a few small pieces, but if anyone has the urge to beat on rusted metal that's a good place to start.

That's a bummer about the disappearance. The anchor vanished last year, but it was replaced with 2 equalized fixed nuts as of the springtime.

DL

That anchor deserves to stay vanished. It is a relic of the days when ED was an aid climb, and stopping there is just taking a very extended hang in the midst of the pitch.

The Minty tree anchor on the top of the cliff has only one doubled sling. The knot wasn't finished properly and there is a twist in the webbing. The tail on one side is much shorter than the other which might be evidence of slippage. A second piece of webbing might be a welcome addition.

A water knot is a poor choice for rap slings precisely because the ends can work into the knot under repeated loading. That knot is in a dangerous state---it should either be retied with a double fisherman's knot or, if there isn't enough webbing for that, removed and replaced with something better.

Tied like that it's a booby-trap, and belongs in a textbook on what not to rap off.

FYI - the "anchor" atop Wisecrack does not exist - the best option is to place some directionals and belay at the Middle Earth tree.

DL

But there's little point in climbing to the top of cliff on Minty unless you intend to descend by walking off and later scrambling.

If you want to rappel after climbing (the worthshile sections of) Minty, just stop at the GT ledge.

Ken

Perhaps you missed the fun overhang at the top of the cliff off of the GT? That is plenty fun whether you are a 5.3 or 5.10 climber, not sure why you would skip that.

+1
The top pitch of Minty is great! There's also a desperate (for its grade) 5.5 overhang variation as well.

I cannot fathom why the final pitch options for Minty are any less "worthwile" than the pitches below. The rock is solid and clean and the overhang variation is impressive for the grade.

The top pitch of Minty is very nice. And there is no reason to rap there. Take the two minute walk to the Madame G bolted rap route.

Hey the Balrog tree needs some new webbing. The two gray slings that are tied together there are intact and haven't faded all that much but they are very stiff/brittle. After I led the pitch (I eventually got the crux...) I put my cordalette around the tree and we were going to send our last climber up with some new webbing but in the moment we forgot, I am sorry.

I have a rope that I plan on retiring after the season. I can cut it down to pieces, inspect them for core shots, and use them to replace existing old webbing anchor. Does that make sense or should I just recycle the rope?

Cut 40' from the rope and recycle what's left if you're one of those "green" people, then use the end you hacked and use it to reinforce anchors - ONLY if you tie a good fisherman's knot.

The Balrog anchor is very well done, but it's only one piece of fabric - would be nice if a redundant piece was added.

DL

A number of us have been doing this with retired half ropes. Install two independently tied loops (double or even triple fisherman's knot) with appropriate quicklinks and cut away all the old anchor tat.

But do think twice about whether a particular rap anchor is needed at all, or whether existing nearby anchors are already sufficient.

Just trim th end 20 feet from either side and make it into your gym rope. At least that is what i hear some folks do. then use the trim to replace that steel cable thats chewing into the Baby rap tree.

Hey someone replaced that second pin on Classic. FYI.

Many thanks to whomever did the Classic pin! You are owed a beverage of choice.