MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC

Posted by: donald perry

MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 06/27/11 02:44 PM

THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE Class 4 Donald Perry 1990

It is best to approach Millbrook from the north end of the cliff rather than repelling in my opinion, I think at least once in your life when you visit Millbrook. This way you can know how to climb out of Millbrook if you need to or want to, especially in some kind of emergency.

To get to the North end of the Grand Traverse Ledge starting from Trapps Bridge follow the carriage road along the back of the Near Trapps and find the Bayards Path which will lead you to the ridge between the Near Trapps and Bayards. Follow the Ridge Trail along the top of Bayards to climb Millbrook ridge. [As a side note, in the wet seasons there is a spring that runs over the trail at this point just before the Ridge Trail starts to ascend Millbrook Mountain. You can fill up your water bottles here.]

Climbing up in elevation abruptly you will eventually reach the edge of the actual cliff edge of Millbrook Mountain by means of a few camel backs. Part way to edge of the actual cliff you will meet a rock that is 5 foot high and 10 long where the trail goes around it on the right. I am going to call this rock the "GTL Stone", because it is very near the level of the Millbrook Grand Traverse Ledge. Keep this in mind as you pass this rock. After you pass this rock on the Ridge Trail continue up the hill until you go over a hump of rock. [To identify this hump of rock note that there is a 12' long crack that is 4" wide and 3' deep that runs a few feet left and parallel to the trail on the top of this outcrop of whitish conglomerate. ] From here the trail goes down and along level through trees for a few feet before a long smooth ridge of stone that ascends up to a block a few hundred feet away. [By the way, this stone ridge and this part of the trail now make the actual stone ridge, the edge of the Millbrook cliff. Do not climb this ridge.] At the base of this stone ridge depart from the trail going left and parallel to the trail to then traverse along the cliff South East past some small caves to a finger of rock that points south opposite a very short smooth North facing corner. Start descending directly down from here and below this smooth corner facing North. You will pass a ledge of rock to the base of this short cliff to a sloping hill of leaves and trees, and underbrush. Believe it or not, you are now on the Grand Traverse Ledge in less than 5 minutes from the time you left the trail!

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/27/11 03:05 PM

THE SOUTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE 5:3 donald perry 1977

To explain how to walk off and up the South Side of the GTL ledge is easier to do then try and explain how to down climb from the top of the cliff. From the South side of the GTL ascend up at the point where the top of the cliff disappears, here there is shorter cliff a few hundred feet over this cliff. Go up here and left, do not climb directly to this next cliff of rock (trying to exit straight up and right in the corner near a chimney is more difficult). You will come to a large flat topped sloping boulder just before the cliff face. The cliff in front has a chimney at the right and there is a right facing corner on the left, which slopes down from left to right to make a ramp. Climb the ramp to the top. There is a chimney next to the ramp which is more awkward then the ramp, yet the chimney is more secure. The hard part of the chimney is turning around after you enter it.
Posted by: chip

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/27/11 03:26 PM

Sounds like some fun. Thanks for posting.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/27/11 04:12 PM

WANDERING STARS 5.11 A5 Donald Perry. May 1993

START: Between Fat Stick and Yellow Ridge at the point where a large rock touches the cliff.

FIRST PITCH: Angle up right and over first roof. Climb straight up to a large concave scoop. Enter the scoop and angle up left to the outer right corner of the second big roof. Up and walk right to the belay ledge.

SECOND PITCH: Climb straight up to the second overhang. Continue to the top inches left of a corner facing left over the second overhang.

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/27/11 04:35 PM

NUCLEAR WASTE 5.11 Donald Perry & Michael Burlingame August 1992

START: On the only fourth band of rock down from the top where the rock is of high quality. This is on the left side of the cliff below and right of The Escape Hatch. This band of rock we called The Fourth Belt. Look for a scooped out striped corner facing right 40' right of the start of this cliff.

FIRST PITCH: Climb a vertical crack that runs on the right side of the scooped out corner. After reaching a stance where the crack turns dark climb left and onto bright orange rock around the corner. From here move up and [exit off left and up at 12:00 after the first roof. See Variation].

Var. 1 THE LIGHT 5.12 Frank Tkac & Don Perry 1979.
From here move up and [right to turn the roof near its end. Start moving right again to grab the rock we called The Tongue. Climb the overhanging vertical crack over the second roof to the end of The Fourth Belt.]
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/27/11 04:45 PM

THE KRAWITZ ROUTE 5.7, A4 Donald Perry. July 11th 1992

Start: Directly below the right side of a block (this feature I called "the Suzy K Block") perched on the lip of an overhang thirty feet from the ground and ten feet to the left of Horseman.

FIRST PITCH: Climb straight up to the right side of the Suzy K Block. Climb to the top of the block. Angle up at eleven o'clock to and through a flake system facing left to the top.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/27/11 04:47 PM

THE MUNSON ROUTE 5.8, A4 Donald Perry July 11, 1992

START: Ten feet to the right of Doug's Roof at the base of a diagonal crack.

FIRST PITCH: Climb the diagonal crack and climb straight up over the lip and straight up to the top.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/27/11 04:49 PM

REDIRECTIONAL IDEALISM 5.6 A4 Donald Perry & Neal Weiss July 1992

START: Eleven feet to the left of Organic Iron at the base of a broken corner facing left. This is also directly below a notch facing left where the second overhang jumps down a step size.

FIRST PITCH: Climb up 5.1 corner to roof. Aid over roof and through notch. At the top of overhangs follow diagonal crack left to a ledge.

SECOND PITCH: Climb diagonal crack through overhangs and on to the Grand Traverse Ledge.

THIRD PITCH: Climb 5.2 face that is 20' to the right.

Posted by: Lucander

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 02:18 AM

Dude, what's up with all the A4 and A5, did you have an ugly wife or bad job back then?


In all seriousness, good job - and thanks for posting.

DL
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 02:40 AM

Don, did you used to wonder around the Trapps with your leather mountaineering boots bumming rides on ropes by tying in with a bowline around the waist....around 1994 or so? if that was you, then I met you way back then. my first spring climbing in the Gunks this dude walks up and asks if he can grab a ride on our TR on P-38. We say sure, then watch flabbergasted as he ties the rope around his waist and dances up a 5.10b in mountaineering boots!
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 04:07 AM

BEHOLD A PALE HORSE 5.6 A4 Donald Perry July 1992

START: Ten feet to the left of Stirrup Trouble

FIRST PITCH: Aid up to a horizontal pocket to the left of Stirrup Trouble. Free climb left and up to a roof. Traverse right under the roof until you are under a black streak. Aid up to a crack under a roof and left to the top.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 04:16 AM

HAIR AS THE HAIR OF WOMEN AND TEETH AS THE TEETH OF LIONS A4 Donald Perry July 1992

START: Twenty feet left of Wasp Stop at the base of a white diagonal crack

FIRST PITCH: Aide up 30' past blank rock to a horizontal crack. Aid climb out a black diagonal crack to a ledge.

SECOND PITCH: Move left to join other climbs to reach the top.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 04:20 AM

I WILL SET MY BOW IN THE CLOUDS. 5.11 A4 Donald Perry May 11, 1993.

START: To the right of HELP between two piles of rocks and below an overhang.

FIRST PITCH: Climb straight up to an 11' roof 60' up. Aid over the roof at the point where a very thin almost invisible crack breaks the roof. At the end of the crack move up and then left to belay below the third roof.

SECOND PITCH: Climb back right and straight up to the top.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 04:31 AM

The Time Eraser 5:10a aka VANITY OF VANITIES SAYETH QOHELETH, ALL IS VANITY 5:10a Donald Perry and Michael Burlingame 1978
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 09:50 AM

Can anyone one here lunge off the lip of an overhang on 1/2 a digit to another 1/4 digit hold 34" up? The protection is good, the fall is 20' to a ramp on one piece. The climb is reconstructed in a house. I can't do it ... yet. Is it possible or am I wasting my time? The hold is on the right, you can see a little bit of chalk there just a little over the lip, and the flake above is the next hold.

Posted by: SethG

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 10:17 AM

And here I thought a fella named Stannard eliminated aid from the Gunks...
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 10:19 AM

VANITY OF VANITIES SAYETH QOHELETH, ALL IS VANITY 5:10a Donald Perry and Michael Burlingame 1978

Ah, nothing like a quote from the Old Testament for dramatic nomenclature.
Posted by: phlan

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 12:30 PM

you soloer of Frogs Head, sir, what up with the cane?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 12:53 PM

Don't know, I do not believe in doctors, as a rule [For example I believe apricot seeds cure cancer and the HIV AIDS connection is a hoax. See http://www.duesberg.com/
] .... but I'm hoping it will go away soon and I will not need a hip replacement. I guess I overworked my right hip joint over the years, and then over did it. Previously starting in September, for six months I could barely stand up without crying. Immediately I changed my diet and went horizontal in an easy chair, now I'm trying to take it easy or learn how to get around without it .... my plans seem to be working. I am avoiding gluten, drinking mineral water and eating organic foods. My dream is to climb he Eiger this fall or next year. Its just a dream, but sometimes if you are not careful dreams can come true.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 01:49 PM

BTW while we are on the topic of hoaxes, 911 was an inside job. It is impossible that building 7, obviously a well planned implosion that took months of intensive engineering, was orchestrated in a matter of hours. http://www.ae911truth.org/

Fluoride is also a part of another hoax most of you may or may not believe in. It is a hazardous waste that will bioaccumulate in your body!, read your tooth paste tube about what you should do if you swallow it. So it would be smart to stop brushing your teeth with it and allowing it to be added to your drinking water. What its really good at is reducing your IQ and causing cancer. See Dr. Connett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjn04-HqVDY


Another one is the Plastic Bottle Chemical BPA or Bisphenol A that most of us have ingested through drinking out of plastic water bottles. It would be smart to use glass bottles and stop drinking out of plastic. What plastic is really good for is boosting cancer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G3u8rDmL9A&feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdVQ7DXf5dg
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/28/11 07:44 PM



REDIRECTIONALISM 5.12a Winter of 1978 & 1979 Don Perry and Michael Burlingame Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH Climb up to a close short whitish right facing corner capped by a small overhang on the right (and a bigger overhang on the left). Pass the overhang as you continue straight up to another short right facing corner capped by another larger overhang. Follow a short right facing corner to a small stance. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top.

SECOND PITCH Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof. Turn the roof over the Meat Cleaver, and climb upwards 10' and then right to The Black Meat Clever which faces left. Climb over a over roof and off to the right down a long parallel crack that make up the border for a giant unstable block. Place gear over the unstable block for a hanging belay.

THIRD PITCH Move back to the Z (the overhangs here form a Z as seen from the road) and climb up and left and left again under overhangs to their end, to then up a few feet midway before the giant roof. Move left and down to a hanging belay at the top of a hanging block we called the tuning fork.

FOURTH PITCH Climb straight up to the roof and traverse left to climb into the feature we named The Bombay Chimney to the top.

Note: In my opinion [DP], Land Grab, Land Grab Direct, Manifest Destiny, Back To The Land Movement, Lessons In History are all variations either ending at or originating from REDIRECTIONALISM. In creating REDIRECTIONALSM we understood all of these as well as other ways, that they should be variations. We concluded that the Meat Clever is the only acceptable access point for defining REDIRECTIONALISM and the climbing above.

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/29/11 12:41 AM

Climbing Ethics And The Gunks:

Back in the 70's and 80's the climbing scene was political and everyone knew each other, or knew someone who knew who you were, it was nothing like it is today. As a result, there were basically two separate groups within the Gunks climbing community. Among the majority of elite climbers there were certain ethics and morals and approval in order for your climbing to be recognized as legitimate. For example Bill Ravitch said that if you could not climb a 5.9 you should climb 5.8 until you could climb 5.9 without falling in good style. Using the rope to hold your weight was a step reserved for those who had been climbing for somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 years, until one was completely familiar with climbing and clearly understood what protection would and would not do. If you used the rope to rest on or fall early on you were branded as some kind of a person who had no grasp on what rock climbing was, is, or should be. You were considered a menace and danger to society, especially if you were to thinking about putting up new routes with this kind of thinking. Furthermore, there had to be a level playing field, and those who broke the rules were ostracized.

A group of climbers, including myself, eventually disregarded this more exclusive and powerful governing body within the climbing community, but at the same time we did not completely disregard their thinking. Rather we ourselves went through a process of rethinking these ethics individually. As a rule, we purposely, for the most part, naturally began to reject to have our routes recorded in any guide book. We considered it a higher standard not to have our climbs in any guide, to leave them in more of the original state in which we found them. We felt a kind of the typical corporation controlling atmosphere for which we sought to escape by our reason for climbing in the first place. In certain ways this was somewhat hypocritical on our part; however I think we were more sensitive and aware of this kind of thinking.

In the mean time, and during the course of my climbing career, I personally have come to respect the ideals of my contemporaries in the days when I first started climbing. I believe that hanging on the rope is a waste of time, and after a fall it is superior ethically to lower down to a ledge and start over. I am talking about your typical 5.11 climb at the Gunks. However, I also believe that it can be impractical to escape poor ethics in certain instances, on big walls, where the climbing is too time consuming, and especially in places where the weather demands immediate results. In such places there will be few people who will complain regardless, unless you are setting a speed climbing record.



For more information see Pox in Vulgaria -- The Profit of Impurism A Commentary by Mark Robinson. This article was featured in Climbing Magazine in 1977.

Posted by: RangerRob

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/29/11 12:50 PM

Don, I agree with you wholeheartedly about the stupid need to have our deeds memorialized in a guidebook. For myself, I believe in the purer motivation of climbing the unknown for adventure's sake, and leaving it more or less as you found it, enabling the next climber to experience it the way you did.

I've got 9 or 10 first ascents in Lost City, out to the right of Cragswood Rd, up on the wall named after you off Foordemore Rd, etc. Are they actually first ascents? OF course not. I'm not so obtuse to belive that someone hasn't climbed them before. But they were first ascents to me. Heck, I even named them all! It would be interesting to compare notes and see what names were given to these lines in the past.

It's not about about rules for me. It's not about following someone elses ethics, or trying to live up to what some elite climber thinks of my ascent style. It's about respecting the environment, leaving it for others to enjoy the way you did, having a great time, and not killing yourself. After all, we are all Conquistadors of the Useless, aren't we!?
Posted by: acdnyc

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/29/11 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
BTW while we are on the topic of hoaxes, 911 was an inside job. It is impossible that building 7, obviously a well planned implosion that took months of intensive engineering, was orchestrated in a matter of hours. http://www.ae911truth.org/


I agree with you. I was on a tugboat when building 7 was imploded. I had ridden my bike downtown on 9/11 and a person in plain cloths stopped me by Battery Park. There was a tugboat pressing against the railing and they where using it to evacuate everyone to NJ. He was armed with a M-4A1 and he had a badge on a string around his neck. He told me to get on the boat becasue building 7 was going to fall down. I asked why? He said becasue its on fire. I glanced over at the building and said it was made out of steel and fire along can't bring down a building like that. He just stared at me and after what seemed like a a few minutes told me to get on the tug or go to jail. Half way across the Hudson on my free ride I watched he building fall straight down. I even have some black and whites I took at that moment.


Fluoride is also a part of another hoax most of you may or may not believe in. It is a hazardous waste that will bioaccumulate in your body!, read your tooth paste tube about what you should do if you swallow it. So it would be smart to stop brushing your teeth with it and allowing it to be added to your drinking water. What its really good at is reducing your IQ and causing cancer. See Dr. Connett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjn04-HqVDY


They add it to NYC water. It's linked to cancer and many people are trying to get "them" to stop. The only way to remove it is by using reverse osmosis water filters. I've read it also make you more compliant. Also, it's a huge waste of money becasue tax payers front the bill.



Another one is the Plastic Bottle Chemical BPA or Bisphenol A that most of us have ingested through drinking out of plastic water bottles. It would be smart to use glass bottles and stop drinking out of plastic. What plastic is really good for is boosting cancer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G3u8rDmL9A&feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdVQ7DXf5dg



We've replaced most of our plastic with glass or steel. We also stopped using none stick pans. We use well seasoned iron skillets or stainless steel.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/29/11 09:53 PM

"It's about respecting the environment, leaving it for others to enjoy the way you did, having a great time, and not killing yourself."

I think to some degree, the reasons that I climb never stay the same, my reasons are always changing.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/29/11 09:59 PM

".. well seasoned iron skillets or stainless steel."

Its always good to know there is still some rational people left. I think climbing makes you take responsibility for your own decisions. Your not allowed to make mistakes.
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/29/11 10:24 PM

I'm tempted to jump into this controversy but realize that it doesn't involve the Northern Millbrook Grand Traverse Ledge.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 01:27 AM

ok ... and if you don't mind me asking, what's that photo of? It looks like Alfalfa, but I can't be sure. I need to get one like that.
Posted by: Advocacy group

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 03:08 AM

Originally Posted By: acdnyc
Originally Posted By: donald perry
BTW while we are on the topic of hoaxes, 911 was an inside job. It is impossible that building 7, obviously a well planned implosion that took months of intensive engineering, was orchestrated in a matter of hours. http://www.ae911truth.org/


I agree with you. I was on a tugboat when building 7 was imploded. I had ridden my bike downtown on 9/11 and a person in plain cloths stopped me by Battery Park. There was a tugboat pressing against the railing and they where using it to evacuate everyone to NJ. He was armed with a M-4A1 and he had a badge on a string around his neck. He told me to get on the boat becasue building 7 was going to fall down. I asked why? He said becasue its on fire. I glanced over at the building and said it was made out of steel and fire along can't bring down a building like that. He just stared at me and after what seemed like a a few minutes told me to get on the tug or go to jail. Half way across the Hudson on my free ride I watched he building fall straight down. I even have some black and whites I took at that moment.


Fluoride is also a part of another hoax most of you may or may not believe in. It is a hazardous waste that will bioaccumulate in your body!, read your tooth paste tube about what you should do if you swallow it. So it would be smart to stop brushing your teeth with it and allowing it to be added to your drinking water. What its really good at is reducing your IQ and causing cancer. See Dr. Connett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjn04-HqVDY


They add it to NYC water. It's linked to cancer and many people are trying to get "them" to stop. The only way to remove it is by using reverse osmosis water filters. I've read it also make you more compliant. Also, it's a huge waste of money becasue tax payers front the bill.



Another one is the Plastic Bottle Chemical BPA or Bisphenol A that most of us have ingested through drinking out of plastic water bottles. It would be smart to use glass bottles and stop drinking out of plastic. What plastic is really good for is boosting cancer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G3u8rDmL9A&feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdVQ7DXf5dg



We've replaced most of our plastic with glass or steel. We also stopped using none stick pans. We use well seasoned iron skillets or stainless steel.




Wow...... first 911 was an inside job, then fluoride makes us complacent, what next Kent is really MPNA?
Posted by: Advocacy group

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 03:13 AM

Originally Posted By: oenophore
I'm tempted to jump into this controversy but realize that it doesn't involve the Northern Millbrook Grand Traverse Ledge.



Quick oenophore call Ranger "thread police" Rob before this gets out of control.....

Thanks, MPNA
Posted by: artisan

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 04:01 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
... I think climbing makes you take responsibility for your own decisions. Your not allowed to make mistakes.


now their is a bold statement
Posted by: talus

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry


REDIRECTIONALISM 5.12a Winter of 1978 & 1979 Don Perry and Michael Burlingame Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH Climb up to a close short whitish right facing corner capped by a small overhang on the right (and a bigger overhang on the left). Pass the overhang as you continue straight up to another short right facing corner capped by another larger overhang. Follow a short right facing corner to a small stance. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top.

SECOND PITCH Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof. Turn the roof over the Meat Cleaver, and climb upwards 10' and then right to The Black Meat Clever which faces left. Climb over a over roof and off to the right down a long parallel crack that make up the border for a giant unstable block. Place gear over the unstable block for a hanging belay.

THIRD PITCH Move back to the Z (the overhangs here form a Z as seen from the road) and climb up and left and left again under overhangs to their end, to then up a few feet midway before the giant roof. Move left and down to a hanging belay at the top of a hanging block we called the tuning fork.

FOURTH PITCH Climb straight up to the roof and traverse left to climb into the feature we named The Bombay Chimney to the top.

Note: In my opinion [DP], Land Grab, Land Grab Direct, Manifest Destiny, Back To The Land Movement, Lessons In History are all variations either ending at or originating from REDIRECTIONALISM. In creating REDIRECTIONALSM we understood all of these as well as other ways, that they should be variations. We concluded that the Meat Clever is the only acceptable access point for defining REDIRECTIONALISM and the climbing above.



wow i did this same line free in 1977. i called it DP was hijacked by aliens
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 02:16 PM

wow i did this same line free in 1977. i called it DP was hijacked by aliens"

That's funny, because I did not see you out there in 1977 [1.]. But that does not mean I do not want to believe you. Do you have any witnesses or climbing articles written about you being out there running around with aliens trying to put up routes?, and trying to put them in the guidebook?

Actually, I would like to know more about this encounter. Can you tell me more?

How did you protect the first crux on the third pitch so you would not fall into the pine tree?

And how tall are you? I need to know this too.

And, do you have a real name? I hope I'm not frightening you, am I? [A Triumph Quote is necessary here, a dog interviewing aliens.]
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 02:37 PM



This line is more accurate.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 03:30 PM

wow i did this same line free in 1977. i called it DP was hijacked by aliens"

That's funny, because I did not see you out there in 1977 [1.]. But that does not mean I do not want to believe you. Do you have any witnesses or climbing articles written about you being out there running around with aliens trying to put up routes?, and trying to put them in the guidebook?

Actually, I would like to know more about this encounter. Can you tell me more?

How did you protect the first crux on the third pitch so you would not fall into the pine tree?

And how tall are you? I need to know this too.

And, do you have a real name? I hope I'm not frightening you, am I? [A Triumph Quote is necessary here, a dog interviewing aliens.]
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 03:44 PM

I suspect it's just another case of leg pulling. It's not too evil as long as it isn't done while one is on a climb.
Posted by: talus

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 03:45 PM

Look at my signature for my name hint it's at the bottom of this post. 6'0" on a tall day. protection i don't need protection. anyway i'm just busting your balls
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 03:45 PM

wow i did this same line free in 1977. i called it DP was hijacked by aliens"

That's funny, because I did not see you out there in 1977 [1.]. But that does not mean I do not want to believe you. Do you have any witnesses or climbing articles written about you being out there running around with aliens trying to put up routes?, and trying to put them in the guidebook?

Actually, I would like to know more about this encounter. Can you tell me more?

How did you protect the first crux on the third pitch so you would not fall into the pine tree?

And how tall are you? I need to know this too.

And, do you have a real name? I hope I'm not frightening you, am I? [A Triumph Quote is necessary here, a dog interviewing aliens.] "Are you a Korean guy under there? Reveal yourself! Reveal yourself!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zWNJHS9PBE&feature=related

Thanks,

DJP

Notes

[1.] Three References:

a. Climbing Magazine 1977: Pox in Vulgaria -- The Profit of Impurism: "The ridicule that followed was intense, and this bizarre pair now conduct their antics in a clandestine fashion on remote cliffs, although they still record their ill gotten gains daily in the climbing shop guidebooks."

b. Mike Burlingame

c. Jim Munson
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 03:52 PM

"6'0" on a tall day"

Well, that's good, because if you said 5' 9" I would have a hard time believing you because no one under 5' 11" has been able to do it yet. I don't think its possible. I am 5.11 and Mike is 6'0". I suppose it may be possible, but it would require a lot of time and luck. You would have to lunge up to a spot where your momentum would naturally throw you off a small hold.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 03:54 PM

"protection i don't need protection"

Sorry again, ... I forgot there were aliens involved.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 04:00 PM

But seriously John,

Great photography, you must have to get up early. Have you ever been there when there is nothing but clouds from the base of the cliff out to the end of the horizon? That would be a great photo, if you could catch it.
Posted by: talus

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 05:09 PM

yes i have. sent you a pm. thank you for the kind words i try to get photos that please the eye.
Posted by: phlan

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 05:14 PM

Perhaps we shouldnt be pulling Don's leg for a while since he is having the hip issues. If you pull the wrong leg it might hurt pretty bad. I do hope your condition heals up Don and you won't need the cane.

I'd like to check out a photo of that too.
Posted by: talus

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 07:06 PM

Posted by: LarE

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 07:07 PM

I stand 5'-10 1/2" when I'm not slouching... would I have a shot at it?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 07:21 PM

Awesome photo John!
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 07:32 PM

I don't know, you might be too short, Mike and myself are the only ones who have done it thus far. Nevertheless, there is a truck load of variations forever waiting for everyone else to use. And I know some people who are under 5.11 who found it impossible, who are better climbers than we are. But like I said, if you put the time in, perhaps anything is possible.
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Awesome photo John!
Delicious!
Ah, to be at the right place at the right time with the right equipment and a fair amount of talent to synch them all!
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 06/30/11 11:55 PM

I have a better route in mind then Redirectionalism believe it or not. I just need to find some willing soul who is very tall or can lung 34" off the lip of an overhang. Maybe my 23 year son can do it, he is strong enough, but the problem is he's only 5' 5" and not that interested in taking long wingers off from one fingertip lunge to another. I guess I will have to make him do it.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/01/11 03:21 AM

Here are some photos of Joshua in bed on the Zodiac (at 13 years old) and another pic higher up in the zig-zags.





And this is pic of Joelle (now 21) taking a nap at the Redirectionalism pine tree in the middle of winter, and another pic on something. Its not too bad there early in the morning, 9:00 AM there is the same as 12:00 AM anywhere else. However when the sun dissapears you have to spend most of your time with your hands in your pockets. That is what we did (Mike Burlingame and I) a lot of the time, when were on this and other climbs there in the 70's winters. It is only when the tempreatures get below 10 degrees that it can become a waste of time. And if you want to climb in anything other than mountain boots at that point, your crazy.




She wants to climb the Eiger with me, but Joshua will have to help pay for it.

Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/01/11 11:05 AM

Here are some photos of Joshua in bed on the Zodiac

Is it Zodiac or Zodiack? You must be proud of your chips off the old block.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/01/11 11:45 AM

Well I am proud of you guys too. So far you have not bashed me to smithereens. My Dad never told me this before; I wish some did, so I will tell you guys.

1. Unless you guys plan on living a short life, throw out your ground cushions and get a rope. By the time you are 30 you will change the shape of your hip joints if you take falls every weekend. Your body is like your car, if you disrespect it, it will disrespect you. Do not expect to overdo it and get away with it.
2. Make sure you eat organic 3 meals a day, not two or one: No Special K or Junk food, especially if you are climbing every weekend. Eat your vegetables and buy organic. Forget the gluten, plastic bottles, and canned foods. Fukushima Dai-ichi and other Nukes are potentially spewing nuclear waste all the time, eat organic and get some apricot seeds they prevent cancer.
3. Be very suspicious of what you hear in the Hospital and among doctors, and what your hear from governments. Do your own research and get involved with politics and have a voice among your pears, consider what Alex Jones and other such rants have to say. Do not believe anyone or anything without testing it out yourself.
4. Do not get a motorcycle. Periodically watch videos about safety concerning driving and whatever industry you are in, if it is dangerous. Here is an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7lCM9ElUqQ
5. Do not try and help drug addicts and alcoholics unless you are a professional. They have to help themselves. There is nothing you can do but make it worse.
6. You are not God and evolution has yet to come up with the heavy support for transitional kinds in the fossil record necessary that Darwin demanded was necessary to prove evolution. I do not want to debate this so I have a link here if you need one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnMYL8sF7bQ Full Version: Hitchens and Boteach Debate on God
7. Do not get married until you are 30 and you will be glad you did. It takes that long for your brain to grow. There is nothing mysterious about the opposite sex, they all talk about the same things all day long. So once you get married be prepared to hunker down (submit) and have kids or find your soul-mate. But you will have to wait till your 35 for that.
8. Do not pay interest all your life. Get out of dept and do not pay the minim payments on your credit card. In that case you will never get out of dept.
9. Settle out of court, law suits are a waste of your time and money.
10. You need to have a hobby so you do not go nuts, just do not over do it, because if you do you will get bored to death of it.
11. Do not sell cheap, wait and wait some more before you sell. You have to work to get the best price. Bargen and get the best price you can and never buy anything in a hurry, go home and sleep on it. It is better to loose out on the deal then pay to much or buy something you do not want or need.
12. Finding a job is a job in itself. In this you always need to wear two hats.
13. If you can afford it go to college, or find something you like to do and become the best at it. For example, when some asks you a question about your industry know the answer ahead of time.
14. You may come to a time in your life when you are so board or upset you want to die. Go write or read book, you will not feel like that forever. Trust me.
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/01/11 04:40 PM

You have a lot of rules for a climber, I have to say. Allow me to add some of my own life rules.

1. If you're going to break the law, only break one law at a time.

2. Don't ever try to put cinnamon in tunafish

3. Buy your significant other flowers before they ask you why you never buy them flowers.

4. Don't run it out with your last piece way under a roof.

5. Don't take golf too seriously. All you're really doing is walking and drinking beer.

6. Eat something really unhealthy and tasty once in a while. What's the point of living a long life if all you ever eat is seaweed and flax seed?

7. If you've ever dreamed of going somewhere, or doing something....do it now! Don't put it off.

8. Sit on a rock by a stream at least twice a year and just stare into the moving water.

9. Don't give money to Evangelical super churches. They probably have more than you do.

10. my last rule...don't make too many rules
Posted by: Rickster

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/01/11 05:17 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Well I am proud of you guys too. So far you have not bashed me to smithereens.


Don, don't sweat it. However, you have now hit 50 posts, so your grace period is done, no more honey moon. LOL
Posted by: Welle

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/01/11 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: RangerRob

2. Don't ever try to put cinnamon in tunafish


eewww, that sounds disgusting, whoever thought of that?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/01/11 08:58 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2lbiS1fris
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/01/11 11:58 PM

Welle, all of my rules are the result of trial and error....unfortunately.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/02/11 01:24 AM

Your very fortunate, all of my rules are the result of not paying attention ... until eventually I am forced to submit.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/02/11 01:35 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Your not allowed to make mistakes.


As they say on that OTHER climbing website...oh, the ironing.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/02/11 06:51 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
".. well seasoned iron skillets or stainless steel."

Its always good to know there is still some rational people left. I think climbing makes you take responsibility for your own decisions. Your not allowed to make mistakes.


Plus you have to be either lucky or blessed [Deut. 28].
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/02/11 08:09 AM

Diving Route to Chernobyl 5.3 Alexei Ananenko, Valeri Bezpalov and Boris Baranov May 14, 1986

A group for the Divers who drained the number four reactor at Chernobyl, despite the risks and saved most of Europe.

So here was the task: who would dive in there and open the bolt on the safety valve? The boys dived, many times, and they opened that bolt, and the unit was given 7,000 roubles. They forgot about the cars and apartments they promised - that's not why they dived. These are people who came from a certain culture, the culture of the great achievement.

Chernobyl Efforts 'Colossal': Soviets : Divers Braved Radiation to Drain Water Under Reactor, Officials Say

Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster - Surviving Disaster (BBC Documentary series) - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyHvDhILYl8

Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster - Surviving Disaster (BBC Documentary series) - Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ErRr1PD9IM&playnext=1&list=PL0C3EF65B2A86C840

chernobyl Nuclear Disaster - Surviving Disaster (BBC Documentary series) - Part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs55k58OPXo

Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster - Surviving Disaster (BBC Documentary series) - Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS8d3ESsvEk&playnext=1&list=PL0C3EF65B2A86C840

Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster - Surviving Disaster (BBC Documentary series) - Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KibJgOb0P...&playnext=2

Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power complex is the equiventl to 10 Chernobyol's and its all on its way to California by land, air, and sea in massive doses.

Nebraska nuclear plant threatened by flooding is safe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySztL6kBw-M
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/02/11 10:56 AM

Aren't we pretty far from that ledge now?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/02/11 11:36 AM

Originally Posted By: oenophore
Aren't we pretty far from that ledge now?


Maybe you are, but I am still on the ledge texting you right now. What do you do when your on a ledge? I'm sorry, I guess you did not like the move. Should I delete it? : )
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/02/11 11:51 AM

But this is the kind of mombojumbo we do on ledges, and I can prove that too.

[3 of 8] Climbing 5:3's at the Gunks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IMjqQnNscg&feature=related
Two girls singing about evolution on a ledge.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/03/11 06:12 PM

New route squashed, I kissed my car when I finally got back to the parking lot. My crutch and I swam around on Millbrook yesterday and again today. The humidity was 67%, so thick you could cut it with a knife! When it started raining [around 4 AM today] it was obvious that it was going to last forever. But it was only supposed to be scattered showers. Over and over here in NJ when they say 90% rain nothing happens. I don't why I keep believing them, or maybe these days we are all getting cheep weather forecasts generated by one dumbass computer?

When your wrong over 50% of the time is it no longer weather forecasting.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/04/11 02:38 PM

j
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/04/11 04:33 PM

d
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/04/11 05:59 PM

d
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/04/11 09:48 PM

I just watched Patagonia Video - Yosemite: Ground Up Perspectives at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBWsdmXJDGI
and I want to explain something to you guys about climbing, if that's ok.

When I first started climbing in the Gunks I was a climbing bum for a number of years. I dedicated my whole life to rock climbing. I made money living at my parent's house working jobs as a machinist, and then went out and spent in all on food and living in the Gunks. I liked New Paltz more then Yosemite because I knew everyone or I was familiar with everyone and there was a large number of people there, there was more of a family like atmosphere there for us at the time. I once had a conversation with Kevin Bein about this, and he agreed with me, this was the reason he liked New Paltz too. His only complaint was that there was no one here in the winters. Sometimes I would live in friends houses for a few days. My bed was below the climb called Trash Can, and when it rained I slept in the stokes litter basket that sat on a rock just below the over hang. When it rained I would just hang out under there until it stopped raining and go back to climbing again. Once I had a conversation with Bill Ravitch about owning a car. He said it was impossible and only made things more complex. [Obviously he was murdered by some climber who merely had their gear stolen, who has yet to confess his murder by their loosing of his rope at New River Gorge on 9.11.2001. Bill did not have accidents.] The only problem I had was earning enough money to sustain me from year to year.

After coming back from a season of climbing it was always very difficult to get back into a work atmosphere and find a job. My parents did not want me to stay in their house and complained that I needed to come up with a better solution.

So what I did is I started a tree business. Jim Munson gave me his Jonsered chain saw and another friend of his Dave Strong let me work for him and trusted me with his equipment. Now I had a carrier as a cutter. Eventually I started my own tree service and bought some trucks.

This was all done in order so I could climb. I assumed that some day I would be able to have a business that was built up to the point where I could take a month off here and a month off there and go climbing. What I did not realize over the next 25 years was that I had set out on in a virtually impossible task, and this is why.

If you start a business the market demands that you price your jobs according to the lowest bidders. These lowest bidders, unlike myself at the time, have crews that work for them. Each crew can earn on average around $1,500.00 a day. Crews are the key to making money in the tree business, and without crews and $1,500.00 a day, it is not enough money to do anything other than break even. They use bucket trucks and have to keep busy nearly all year round in order so these workers can sustain themselves in your business on a permanent basis. This is something I never figured out, and nobody I knew understood it either. Therefore in reality the idea of having a business such as this, where you can take off and go climbing for 6 months was an impossible task. The work was hard and long, I worked over 12 hours a day cutting down trees, dragging branches to my chipper, and lifting 300 pound logs onto my trucks. I also owned three log trucks over the years.

I believed that hard physical work always paid off, that's not true either. You body can ware out if your not very carful. You have to eat a lot of organic fruit, vegetables, meat, [no-sparkling] mineral water, health supplements, no gluten bread, and meals hopefully six times a day and get rid of the plastic … and take breaks. You can't expect to over do it and get away with it. Someday ground mats will become a thing of the past, you will not climb forever if you keep hitting the ground. These guys are setting themselves up for an early retirement from their climbing carrier. Even today, some of my worn out climbing friends are so hardened to their way of thinking it is impossible for them to figure this out. So next time you see guys standing around who work for the town or the union and you wonder why they are not working like private industry, maybe it is because the old timers understand this too.

So, I do not know if there is an easy solution for being a climbing bum, but I can tell you that I did not find it. I think the best bet is to try and find someone who is understanding, who will let you work for them part time. But if you plan to start your own business, you will find that in order to be completive you will need to give it 100% of your time. And no one will do it for you.

In all this I would also like to point out, that to some degree all things are equal. For example it is possible to become just as addicted to doing anything, just as to climbing. I did not know this either when I first started climbing. The same mind we have that loves climbing can also fall in love with money, or any other thing for that matter. You can even fall in love with hating something. In this being a climber is no less materialistic than anything else. So if you loose your ability to climb for what ever reason, you will find that you can be just as happy doing other material things as well. There is a point though where all these things can become dreadfully boring, but that is another subject and the subject of Ecclesiastes and Qoheleth who said "Vanity of vanity all is vanity".
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/06/11 03:19 PM

d
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/06/11 06:03 PM

Presently I understand that climbers still believe that something is not a first free accent FFA until it is freed from one belay to the next. There is Redpointing, Pinkpointing, but that is all. I am going to define new rockclimbing terms, as what I believe are stronger as well as weaker logically and ethically.

Blackpoint: In rock-climbing to climb a pitch from beginning to end, overlapping yet never joining all the moves together in one successive push.

Whitepoint: In rock-climbing to accurately engineer and define a route on paper without actually climbing it at all.

Greenpoint: In rock-climbing to accurately define a route without giving any information on the style of the first accent party.

Yellowpoint: In rock-climbing to put up a new climb under tension.

Goldpoint: In rock-climbing to free a route on top-rope or to free a big-wall by a team, one leading on aid and one seconding without aid. To complete each pitch without falling or using the rope.

Silverpoint: In rock-climbing to free a route on top-rope or to free a big-wall by a team, one leading on aid and one seconding without aid. To complete each pitch and falling at least once.


Bluepoint: : In rock-climbing to chisel hand holds in order to put up a climb.

Greypoint: In rock-climbing to alter the rock in order to place protection on a new climb.

Speakerpoint: In rock-climbing to take advantage of having a rope on the climb.

Endpoint: In rock-climbing to ascend a climb without falling.

Granted, there is a better and stronger style when someone has done a climb without falling, or the belays are further apart. But if a person has climbed every single inch of the rock free, how can it be argued that the climber has not climbed every inch of the route free? That is clearly a contradiction. I understand there may be a lot of feelings and pride here, but I see no logic to it other than that the better climbers feel that they deserve more glory for themselves. I can imagine that if one can grade a climb, and he has free climbed every inch of a climb, ultimately whatever way he does it, or whatever he does afterwards is in reality only an "improvement" on a previous free accent. If it can be argued that it was not a first free accent when someone has taken a rest along the way for example, then it can also be argued that those who have taken falls while doing a route have accumulated illegitimate beta, and therefore by that same logic those parties that have done so must be forever disqualified as the first accent party because the possibility for them to onsight without bata has been eliminated. This is a step further than what was the thinking among the people putting up new routes in the Gunks back in the 70's but similar thinking to that of Jim Ericson at the time, who as I understood it from Mark Robinson, that he believed in downclimbing or an onsightflash in order to complete a route free. Now if someone wishes to argue against these conclusions I made, that's fine. But I do not see how the argument has anything to do with common reason or logic. Only the on-sight-flash, or a climb that was done adapting down-climbing into it rather than lowering off are climbs done without aid. Yet, in the truest sense only a solo can be argued to have no aid at all.

In my opinion ultimately there are only two points to consider concerning the style one does any route in. That is, whether they took any falls or not [ Speakerpoint v.s. Endpoint].

Someone could go a step further and say that therefore now chalk and climbing shoes also need to be eliminated to do a FFA. However, the overall majority of climbers use chalk and climbing shoes. So on that bases we can say there is no such thing as climbing without chalk and climbing shoes. And on that bases we can logically throw out this argument.

I am sure I am not the first one to bring this question up, and that is because of the illogical nature of the ethical conclusions made thus far up to this date in the climbing world. Those climbers who have saved themselves a lot of time, who wish to assume they have first free accents without aid are free to think that way regardless of these arguments. But if they wish to argue that they are any better than someone who has saved themselves even more time, by someone who uses more such aide and the rope as they have, yet has likewise climbed every inch free one way or the other, in this case there is nothing to argue with but tradition.

I suppose there is some fear again that such ideas can give rise to the "notion" that now new routes can go up so fast that no one has a chance to do them free any more in the traditional sense of the word. And also that those people who are working particular areas may now have to fear handing over all their potential "first free accents" to weaker climbers. But argue as they may, what we are left with is only those conclusions that are logical, and those conclusions that are not logical. I think they are based either on greed or a disbelief in reality.

There is more logic if someone was to simply look over a cliff, who could flawlessly determine the direction, the grade and the difficulties [Greenpoint] to then argue that now a FFA route should be noted, based on the fact that today there is, more often than not, no way of telling who the FFA party is after this point.

However, I think that if climbing would be allowed to evolve to that which is logical there would only be more climbs sooner rather than later. And I think that should be a good thing. Ultimately in the end it makes no difference to the person doing the climb. Whatever was done, and who ever did it will be forgotten: "There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.".

Granted, no one wants to go around climbing things in poor style, I know I don't. But if I have to repeat a route done previously in poor style done by someone else, or repeat a climb that in reality was never done at all off paper, I think that information can be left private. I don't want to know about it and I don't have to know about it. But in this case this has something to do with my ego and who I am as a climber, and not with climbing itself in the truest sense of the word, or with reality. I have created an imaginary world for myself to live in, and I suppose I want to keep it just the way it is. When I do a climb I want to spend more time doing it from the ground up regardless of how long it takes and assume that everyone else has done the same thing. But by the same token I don't feel I have an argument.

But as far as chiseling or removing rock by mechanical means to make hand holds [Bluepoint], I think that whatever has been chiseled out should absolutely be put back with epoxy cement. It would make better sense not to do the climb at all, or else place a sling to hold on in that same place. I don't believe Bluepoint can have anything to do with rock-climbing at all and that there is no such thing as a first free accent possible on manmade climbs.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/06/11 07:03 PM

Concerning whitepooint, if we suppose someone creates a climb like Foops in their own backyard. Some how they are able to make molds of the climb and recreate it by a flawless method, after which they then solo the route. In this case did they do the climb or not? Is the climb done, or is there more to do?
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/06/11 07:10 PM

(I'm not reading that)
Posted by: tradjunkie

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/06/11 07:37 PM

Rock is worn down by milennia of wind, water, and other friction. You can see how even human traffic wears down and polishes holds on routes like Strictly.

As a result, the rock is slightly eroded after each ascent and thus different each and every time; so each ascent is a first ascent, much like first ascents have been made after major rockfall, whether in Yosemite, Chamonix, or more questionably, on Chimango (RIP). Even minor changes in the rock, such as, say, a single hold breaking on Mac-Reppy, or polishing on (name your favorite), make for new climbs.

The only way to avoid making a first ascent is to make molds of, say, Foops, and mass-produce multiple copies. Thus the first time each copy is climbed, one could have this argument.

I will not comment further on this line of theory until you demonstrate its practical value by reproducing Foops in conglomerate quartzite limestone in your backyard.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/06/11 10:18 PM

"I will not comment further on this line of theory until you demonstrate its practical value by reproducing Foops in conglomerate quartzite limestone in your backyard."

Well, if I do it or you do it or some else does it maybe there is a better place for it then a backyard. But I think it is a good idea, especally given to where it is situated now.
Posted by: LarE

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/07/11 12:42 AM

"I will not comment further on this line of theory until you demonstrate its practical value by reproducing Foops in conglomerate quartzite limestone in your backyard."

I believe that Hugh Herr did just that (only with plywood, not actual rock)
Posted by: talus

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/07/11 11:34 AM

Originally Posted By: LarE
"I will not comment further on this line of theory until you demonstrate its practical value by reproducing Foops in conglomerate quartzite limestone in your backyard."

I believe that Hugh Herr did just that (only with plywood, not actual rock)


Henry Barber
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/07/11 03:43 PM

"reproducing ... conglomerate quartzite limestone"

I guess this would take a very long time, and is very near to impossible. But I suppose if someone wanted they could make it out of wood and spray it with something to make walls similar to what we already have in rock climbing gyms. Someday maybe someone will eventually do it especially if it ever continues to be more difficult to go to Skytop in person.
Posted by: AOR

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/07/11 07:32 PM

Originally Posted By: talus
Originally Posted By: LarE
"I will not comment further on this line of theory until you demonstrate its practical value by reproducing Foops in conglomerate quartzite limestone in your backyard."

I believe that Hugh Herr did just that (only with plywood, not actual rock)


Henry Barber



Reproducing a climb in your backyard to complete an ascent of the route for real. I wonder what kind of "point" you'd call that?
Posted by: acdnyc

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/07/11 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: AOR
Originally Posted By: talus
Originally Posted By: LarE
"I will not comment further on this line of theory until you demonstrate its practical value by reproducing Foops in conglomerate quartzite limestone in your backyard."

I believe that Hugh Herr did just that (only with plywood, not actual rock)


Henry Barber




Reproducing a climb in your backyard to complete an ascent of the route for real. I wonder what kind of "point" you'd call that?



That would be called a ball point.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/08/11 02:55 AM

Maybe a moot-point. : ) ?
Posted by: LarE

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/09/11 11:13 AM

point taken.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/09/11 01:09 PM

What's the point?
Posted by: Rickster

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/09/11 02:37 PM

Sounds like "needle point", stitching the route together.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/09/11 03:06 PM

d
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/09/11 04:06 PM

Just for the record, when we did Redirectionalism we did all the moves free, and more than one time, but we did not free pitch 3 from one belay to the next. We had to keep sticking our hands in our pockets to keep warm etc. Pitch 4 was in a snow storm and it was getting dark. I rested on gear below the roof before freeing the remainder of the route, but that pitch is not as hard, and I think Mike followed it on second without falling. Nevertheless, it was very cold, so I am not sure if his hands went numb that time or not. Hard to remember, but I do remember we got slight frost-nip now and then. There was a rhododendron bush that was right in the way near the end of pitch 4, but I think some other party removed it sometime after we did the climb.


So then Redirectionalism would be blackpoint 5.12a. But, because the terminology does not exist today everywhere in the climbing world, this implies that it has not yet gone free, and that we would have to rate it 5.12 A1 if we wanted to put it in a guide.


We did not use aid to bypass any moves or place gear. So I think it is hard to say we aided the climb, nevertheless that is just the way most people understand it. We really have not had the time to do anything more with pitch 3. Pitch 3 is very sustained, but all the moves are fairly straight forward. The first moves are quite awkward and very difficult to protect, with even the lightest protection, and the rest of it is somewhat sustained. After you get into it the problem always is that you have to look up under the roof in a horizontal crack to place gear. [One time I got a piece of rock in my eye and I had to go to a doctor in Saint Francis Hospital - Poughkeepsie NY to get it out. He used a metal pin and I needed to keep my eyes very still while he picked it out. Skin over the eye grows very fast, so if that happens to you it is important to get to the eye doctor as soon as possible.] As you finish going around the overhang at the end, (traverse 17' left under the overhang), this is the point where we were out of the danger of falling.


We did climb the first and second pitches without falling. If someone would like to free the third and fourth pitches from beginning to end in one push that party will be considered to have done the first free ascent, and I wish such parties the best of luck. However someday I think there should be such terminology as blackpoint in the future, especially in such places like Baffin Island. Then the first free ascent would go then back to Berlingame and myself. This is why we rate the climb 5.12a, because the climb has gone free, from beginning to end.
Posted by: LarE

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/11/11 10:22 AM

A route done free, otherwise onsite, but with the aid of images and beta downloaded onto an iphone mid-ascent could be an appoint.

heh.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/11/11 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By: LarE
A route done free, otherwise onsite, but with the aid of images and beta downloaded onto an iphone mid-ascent could be an appoint.


why not pc- or I- point? What does ap- stand for?
Posted by: retroscree

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/11/11 02:26 PM

LarE meant to say app-point, as in "there's an app for that".
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/12/11 01:07 AM

Originally Posted By: retroscree
LarE meant to say app-point, as in "there's an app for that".
goog point, would that include climbing with your video phone on a stick? Or would that be another point, perhaps antenae-point or a bionic point? Mike and me went to visit Hugh in the hospital. One of us sugested that there was great potental and not fret. I was a machinest, Hugh said his freind at home was a machinest.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/12/11 04:59 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIbuRMVVekg&feature=related

no comment please
Posted by: chip

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/12/11 02:47 PM

I gotta say, that video belongs in the political section and to post it with the request for no comments is a bit lame. If that is your stance then stand up and defend it.
And now back to the previously scheduled show.
Posted by: retroscree

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/12/11 04:10 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry

What the hell does an asinine, idiotic, conspiracy theory video have to do with Millbrook? And "no comment please"??? WTF?
Posted by: AOR

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/12/11 06:02 PM

I pretty much agree...if someone doesn't want a comment on a particular post, then why post it?
Posted by: LarE

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/12/11 06:23 PM

Honeymoon appears to be over...
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/12/11 07:05 PM

Ok ok ok sorry, dumb comment ... You right
Posted by: Rickster

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/12/11 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: LarE
Honeymoon appears to be over...


Yep.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/12/11 09:31 PM

DJP, this forum is not your personal soapbox.

I will liberally "moderate" further non-climbing posts like the above.
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/16/11 01:33 AM

Ok ok ok sorry, dumb comment ... You right

Post this in the politics etc. forum -- I'm itching to reply.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 02:31 AM

g
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 02:53 AM

REDIRECTIONALISM DIRECT 5.12+ July 16, 2011 Joshua Perry & Don Perry. Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH Climb up to a close short whitish right facing corner capped by a small overhang on the right (and a bigger overhang on the left). Pass the overhang as you continue straight up to another short right facing corner capped by another larger overhang. Follow a short right facing corner to a small stance. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top.

SECOND PITCH Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof at a notch directly over the Meat Cleaver. Climb upwards and left (this is the point where Redirectionalism goes direct) around the left side of a wide black streak into overhangs above and protection. Move back down to belay on a small ledge to the left.

THIRD PITCH Climb straight up over small roofs directly over the top of the left side of the Meat-Cleaver, i.e. while climbing left around a large white bulge and up to roof. Under the roof traverse right to turn roof directly over center of Meat-Cleaver, i.e. under a horizontal crack under the next roof at its widest opening. The aforementioned roof is over and a part of the regular route. Turn this roof and the next roof to belay just under the last roof. Access the belay under the last roof by uncontrived means, go around a small roof between the two afore mentioned roofs.

FOURTH PITCH Use an under cling on the last roof to turn roof just right of the right facing corner over the roof. Climb straight up to top.

Meleski, Gruenberg Variation. Finish off on the wider part of the roof 14 feet to the left, exiting through a right facing corner in the overhang. This roof is a more sustained.

Note. This route, with or without its variation, is without question among the very best and most complex and troubling routes in the Shawgunks.

photo deleted

Redirectionalism Direct 5.12+ Joshua Perry & Donald Perry 7.16.11
Posted by: cfrac

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 03:54 PM

a
Posted by: curmudgeon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 05:38 PM

Great Millbrook photo Don!

I couldn't have taken a better one myself.

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: cfrac
How do we know this isn't a hoax?


"When you unstrap your diapers and you just do it instead of asking questions? What "WE" are we talking about here anyway?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: curmudgeon
Great Millbrook photo Don!

I couldn't have taken a better one myself.



I asked the permission of the person who posted this, assuming it is you, and you never said anything. So I chopped as much off as I could, it's not the real thing. Do you care about it here, or should I get it removed? BTW, awesome photo, I've never seen anything like it before. Wow!
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 06:47 PM

a
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 07:14 PM

h
Posted by: cfrac

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 07:15 PM

Sorry for the confusion Don, I was referring to 9/11, not your new route.

Photos prove it was a hoax...
911 Photos prove hoax
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 07:18 PM

s
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: cfrac
Sorry for the confusion Don, I was referring to 9/11, not your new route.

Photos prove it was a hoax...
911 Photos prove hoax


Well at this point you will need to pretend, or suffer the wrath for posting off topic. Its too late now.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/17/11 09:41 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
[quote=cfrac]How do we know this isn't a hoax?


Or what difference does it really make anyway, none. At the very worst you would be doing a first accent or else repeating a magical line that very few people will ever experience in their whole entire lives. I don't care what you think, in fact I hope you don't believe I did it. That's better for you and me, the rock is the only thing that should matter here, it should be the only thing that really matters.

On this climb at least, dying's for fools, dying's for amateurs ... but that does not mean that you'll need to use a chisel or a rock-drill. And as far as that goes I want to assure you that it does go free, it has gone free. I would not say it's A5 because it does not have to be, I can say that it is problematic. Don't expect to run it out and think it's going to get any better. But to answer your question directly: "No its not a hoax."
Posted by: cfrac

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/18/11 10:01 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
I would not say it's A5 because it does not have to be, I can say that it is problematic.


What does that mean? Is that a cryptic way of saying the route is R or X?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/18/11 12:54 PM

Originally Posted By: cfrac
What does that mean? Is that a cryptic way of saying the route is R or X?


I don't appreciate comparing my climbs to X rated movies for religious reasons, so I would say it is A5 with some nice run outs. If you fall the wrong way, onto the meatcleaver, you will die. But I don't want to be cryptic, nor do I want people to think it is an aid climb, so I'll change it to 5.12+ X.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/18/11 01:04 PM

REDIRECTIONALISM DIRECT 5.12+ X July 16, 2011 Joshua Perry & Don Perry. Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH Climb up to a close short whitish right facing corner capped by a small overhang on the right (and a bigger overhang on the left). Pass the overhang as you continue straight up to another short right facing corner capped by another larger overhang. Follow a short right facing corner to a small stance. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top.

SECOND PITCH Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof at a notch directly over the Meat Cleaver. Climb upwards and left (this is the point where Redirectionalism goes direct) around the left side of a wide black streak into overhangs above and protection. Move back down to belay on a small ledge to the left.

THIRD PITCH Climb straight up over small roofs directly over the top of the left side of the Meat-Cleaver, i.e. while climbing left around a large white bulge and up to roof. Under the roof traverse right to turn roof directly over center of Meat-Cleaver, i.e. under a horizontal crack under the next roof at its widest opening. The aforementioned roof is over and a part of the regular route. Turn this roof and the next roof to belay just under the last roof. Access the belay under the last roof by uncontrived means, go around a small roof between the two afore mentioned roofs.

FOURTH PITCH Use an under cling on the last roof to turn roof just right of the right facing corner over the roof. Climb straight up to top.

Meleski, Gruenberg Variation. Finish off on the wider part of the roof 14 feet to the left, exiting through a right facing corner in the overhang. This roof is a more sustained.

Note. This route, with or without its variation, is without question among the very best and most complex and troubling routes in the Shawgunks.

photo deleted

Redirectionalism Direct 5.12+ X Joshua Perry & Donald Perry 7.16.11
Posted by: curmudgeon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/18/11 02:06 PM

Don,I don't really care that you used my Millbrook photo but you didn't wait very long after sending me an email before you posted it anyway.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/18/11 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By: curmudgeon
Don,I don't really care that you used my Millbrook photo but you didn't wait very long after sending me an email before you posted it anyway.


Sorry, I thought that you ignored my email.

How much would it cost to get a copy from you poster sized?, and can you frame it? But if it's not for sale, I would not mind paying a fee to use it here, just the way it is. What do you think?

Posted by: curmudgeon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/18/11 04:39 PM

Don,I need to re-scan the photo to a higher resolution. I cropped out most of the sky because of hairs and other crud that will disappear with a cleaning and or photoshop. I will let you know when I get around to it. I don't mind that you used it here. I would have said something earlier if I was really annoyed.
Posted by: cfrac

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/18/11 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: cfrac
What does that mean? Is that a cryptic way of saying the route is R or X?


I don't appreciate comparing my climbs to X rated movies for religious reasons, so I would say it is A5 with some nice run outs. If you fall the wrong way, onto the meatcleaver, you will die. But I don't want to be cryptic, nor do I want people to think it is an aid climb, so I'll change it to 5.12+ X.


So earlier in this thread you posted several routes you did which I believe are not found in the guidebooks. Are those free climbs with A3,A4,A5 standing in for PG, R, X, or are they nailing routes or clean aid routes (C1,C2,C3 etc...)?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/18/11 08:26 PM

No, they are all aid climbs on clean aid methods. They will never go free. Sorry for the confusion.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 07/18/11 08:28 PM

"Don,I need to re-scan the photo to a higher resolution ..."

Yes, let me know when you get around to it. Seriously, I am very interested. Let me know if you think it can go poster or not. Thanks!
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/04/11 02:47 AM

REDIRECTIONALISM DIRECT 5.12+ R July 16, 2011 Joshua Perry & Don Perry. Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH Climb up past two separated right facing corners to an overhang. Traverse right under overhang to another right facing corner over the roof. Climb through right facing corner to the base of a ramp. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top and a small ledge.

SECOND PITCH Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof at a notch directly over the Meat Cleaver. Climb upwards and then left (this is the point where Redirectionalism goes direct) to around the left side of a wide black streak into overhangs above and protection. Move back down to belay on a narrow ledge to the left.

THIRD PITCH At the overhangs, climb straight up over small roofs directly over the top of the left side of the Meat-Cleaver, at the same time while climbing left around a large white bulge and up to roof. Under the roof traverse right past a small hole 5' to turn roof directly over center of Meat-Cleaver, which is at the same time under a horizontal crack under the next roof at its widest opening. The aforementioned roof is over and a part of the regular route. Turn narrow roof and the wider roof above on the regular route and climb up to the last roof.. Belay 14' down and to the right.

FOURTH PITCH Use under clings on the last roof to turn roof just under a right facing corner over the roof. Climb up to top.

Variation 1. 5.13 + R Joshua Perry & Donald Perry August 2, 2011. Between the Meleski, Gruenberg Variation and the forth pitch of Redirectionalism Direct, climb up into short right facing corners in the overhang to the top. Variation 1 has a runout out and over the roof on no protection on 5.13+ moves. We have already climbed it with aid at A4, however we are now working to free this variation and we see no reason for it to continue named as an aide climb.

Note. This route is without question among the very best and most complex and troubling routes in the Shawgunks. This climb is not an aid route, if this climb is aided some of the holds will break off.


photo deleted

Redirectionalism Direct 5.12+ R Joshua Perry & Donald Perry 7.16.11

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/04/11 02:49 AM

We down graided from X to R. If you know what your doing it is an R. If you don't know what your doing it's an X
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/04/11 09:48 AM

If you know what your doing it is an R. If you don't know what your doing it's an X

Beg pardon for the deviation here. The above is so true of so many other things in life.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/04/11 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: oenophore
... so true of so many other things in life.


For me, it is the "so many other things in life" I need the guide for. In this world the mountains are the only thing where I know what I am getting myself into before its too late.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/04/11 08:02 PM

REDIRECTIONALISM 5.12 R Winter of 1978 & 1979 Don Perry and Michael Burlingame Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH Climb up past two separated right facing corners to an overhang. Traverse right under overhang to another right facing corner over the roof. Climb through right facing corner to the base of a ramp. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top and a small ledge.

SECOND PITCH Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof. Turn the roof over the Meat Cleaver, and climb upwards 10' and then right to The Black Meat Clever which faces left. Climb over a over roof and off to the right down a long parallel crack that make up the border for a giant block. Place gear over the block for a hanging belay.

THIRD PITCH Move back to the Z (the overhangs here form a Z as seen from the road) and climb up and left and left again under overhangs to their end, to then climb up a few feet midway before the giant roof. Move left and down to a hanging belay at the top of a hanging block, we called this block the tuning fork.

FOURTH PITCH Climb up to the roof and traverse left to climb into the feature we named The Bombay Chimney to the top.


photo deleted
Posted by: cfrac

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/04/11 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry

Variation 1. A4 or (5.13 + R). Joshua Perry & Donald Perry August 2, 2011. Between the Meleski, Gruenberg Variation and the forth pitch of Redirectionalism Direct, climb up into short right facing corners in the overhang to the top.

Notes.

This route, with or without the Meleski, Gruenberg Variation is without question among the very best and most complex and troubling routes in the Shawgunks. This climb is not an aid route, if this climb is aided some of the holds will break off.


Variation 1 has a runout out and over the roof with no protection on 5.13+ moves. We have already climbed it with aid at A4, however we are now working to free this variation and we see no reason for it to continue as an aide climb.


I am trying to make sense of what you are trying to convey in these posts.

First, could you explain how you stated that it has a grade of 5.13+ R but also said you are now working on freeing it.To me, when someone gives something a free climbing grade it is because it has been free climbed.

Secondly, you said that you have aided it but also that it is not an aid route and holds will break off if it is aided. Can you help me understand this apparent contradiction.

Lastly, Chris McNamara's definition of A4 is 6 to 8 bodyweight placements in a row. When you are giving your routes grades would that definition fit?

Thanks
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/04/11 10:03 PM

From cfrac: "…, could you explain how you stated that it has a grade of 5.13+ R but also said you are now working on freeing it. To me, when someone gives something a free climbing grade it is because it has been free climbed.


From Don: I am estimating it is at 5.13, it could be 5.14 or harder. Right now it is A4 but it is no longer under consideration as an aid route so we need to put a free rating there even though we have not done it yet. And it will go free as long as people do not aid on it. If someone else does it first, they will have the first free accent. It's absolutely a boulder problem without the ground mats.


From cfrac: "Secondly, you said that you have aided it but also that it is not an aid route and holds will break off if it is aided. Can you help me understand this apparent contradiction.


From Don: I was lucky, others may not be so lucky, I don't think it's worth the risk. I am talking about the climb now though not the climber. Also if you plan to free it, there is not enough room in the holds for your fingers and a hook at the same time. So the best solution is to let out some slack and take long falls so you do not crash into the wall.


From Cfrac: "Lastly, Chris McNamara's definition of A4 is 6 to 8 bodyweight placements in a row. When you are giving your routes grades would that definition fit?"


From Don: Yes, when you add up the footage. I am using a stick.
Posted by: retroscree

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/04/11 11:02 PM

Originally Posted By: cfrac
Lastly, Chris McNamara's definition of A4 is 6 to 8 bodyweight placements in a row.

Rating hard aid by number of bodyweight placements in a row - which implies a certain length fall - without taking landings and things you might hit on the way down into account is kind of old-school. New wave aid ratings definitely take danger into account. Middendorf calls A4 "Serious aid: lots of danger. 60 to 100 foot fall potentials common, with uncertain landings far below." IOW, a 75 foot fall potential on an overhanging headwall into air might well be rated only A3.
Middendorf's aid rating page on BigWalls.net
Posted by: retroscree

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/05/11 12:58 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
So as far as your system of grading is concerned it would be A1, but to me its A4 all day long.

My system of grading??? Sorry man, the link I provided is what is now standard in Yosemite and Zion. It really doesn't matter what you call it.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/05/11 01:02 AM

I am rating it A4 as far as the difficulty in getting up it at all with aid. The aid is difficult; you might not make it up there at all. So, I guess I was thinking of grading aid climbing in a way similar to the way I grade free climbing in this instance. For example, if this thing was on the top of the Eiger, it is likely no one would not make it up there, no doubt it would be A4. In other words, if your life depends on surviving in the accent, you may or may not survive.

And if your addicted to climbing the same way some people are addicted to video games, well, that proves my point all the more.

So as far as your system of grading is concerned it would be A1, but to me it's A4 all day long.

I guess I just don't want people to be surprised and not know its troublesome.

Another way to look at it is like this, go try it. When you do not make it up it, what are you going to grade it?, A1?

Unfortunately our grading system is restricted to say a lot of things in only a few points, its hard to impossible, that's what I'm talking about. And if we keep aiding it no ones getting there without a drill because there is not much there to begin with.

I know this sounds confusing, but it's not my fault, I don't have much to work with.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/05/11 01:06 AM

Well, I want to call it A4, I'm not interested in "what is now standard in Yosemite and Zion. It really doesn't matter what you call it." I want to call it A4, you can call it A3 and in your book maybe I am wrong. I can live with that. I still think I am right.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/05/11 01:12 AM

Forget about your fear of dying completely for a minute, you got a parachute, just think about getting up the climb and thats all. Now do I have a point?

Posted by: Dana

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/05/11 11:47 AM

Hi Don,

What is Mike B. doing these days? Where is he living? I remember him from long ago. Thanks.

Dana
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/05/11 12:39 PM

Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: donald perry
So as far as your system of grading is concerned it would be A1, but to me its A4 all day long.

My system of grading??? Sorry man, the link I provided is what is now standard in Yosemite and Zion. It really doesn't matter what you call it.


Explanation of the A1 to A5 grading system for aid- climbing pitches

by John Middendorf

A3: Hard aid: testing methods required. Involves many tenuous placements in a row. Generally solid placements (which could hold a fall) found within a pitch. Long fall potential up to 50 feet (6-8 placements ripping), but generally safe from serious danger. Usually several hours required to complete a pitch, due to complexity of placements. Examples: The Pacific Ocean Wall lower crux pitches (30 feet between original bolts on manky fixed copperheads), Standing Rock in the desert (the crux being a traverse on the first pitch with very marginal gear with 30 foot swing potential into a corner).

.... ok I give up ... you're right.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/05/11 12:45 PM

REDIRECTIONALISM DIRECT 5.12+ R July 16, 2011 Joshua Perry & Don Perry. Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH Climb up past two separated right facing corners to an overhang. Traverse right under overhang to another right facing corner over the roof. Climb through right facing corner to the base of a ramp. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top and a small ledge.

SECOND PITCH Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof at a notch directly over the Meat Cleaver. Climb upwards and then left (this is the point where Redirectionalism goes direct) to around the left side of a wide black streak into overhangs above and protection. Move back down to belay on a narrow ledge to the left.

THIRD PITCH At the overhangs, climb straight up over small roofs directly over the top of the left side of the Meat-Cleaver, at the same time while climbing left around a large white bulge and up to roof. Under the roof traverse right past a small hole 5' to turn roof directly over center of Meat-Cleaver, which is at the same time under a horizontal crack under the next roof at its widest opening. The aforementioned roof is over and a part of the regular route. Turn narrow roof and the wider roof above on the regular route and climb up to the last roof.. Belay 14' down and to the right.

FOURTH PITCH Use under clings on the last roof to turn roof just under a right facing corner over the roof. Climb up to top.

Variation 1. 5.13 + R Joshua Perry & Donald Perry August 2, 2011. Between the Meleski, Gruenberg Variation and the forth pitch of Redirectionalism Direct, climb up into short right facing corners in the overhang to the top. Variation 1 has a runout out and over the roof on no protection on 5.13+ moves. We have already climbed it with aid at A3, however we are now working to free this variation and we see no reason for it to continue named as an aide climb.

Note. This route is without question among the very best and most complex and troubling routes in the Shawgunks. This climb is not an aid route, if this climb is aided some of the holds will break off.


photo deleted

Redirectionalism Direct 5.12+ R Joshua Perry & Donald Perry 7.16.11
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 08/05/11 01:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Dana
Hi Don,

What is Mike B. doing these days? Where is he living? I remember him from long ago. Thanks.

Dana


He got married and had kids, after that it was all over and I could not find anyone else to climb with for some time.

I called him, he says he will post.

BTW I have a brother named Dana that looks a lot like you. He works with the Gunks Climbers Coalition.


http://gunksclimbers.org/news2008.shtml
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/03/11 01:55 PM

G
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/03/11 08:26 PM

Er, what does G mean?
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/04/11 02:58 AM

Originally Posted By: oenophore
Er, what does G mean?


I think it means A0. You know, like French Free.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/04/11 11:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon
Originally Posted By: oenophore
Er, what does G mean?


I think it means A0. You know, like French Free.


Always one to make us think, that's Don.

"G" to aging old schoolers would mean "The G" or FBI.
www.urbandictionary.com defines "G" as a $1000 package of certain, shall we say, illegal consciousness altering contraband purchased on street corners.
www.slangsite.com tells us that a common usage amongst hip tweeners texting on their BBs "G" is cool or fun.

I'll presume that Don is just having a lot of G with us here at gunks.com
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/04/11 01:51 PM

One will have to admit that a post consisting entirely of the letter G that's not an immediate response to a question is quite mysterious.
Posted by: retroscree

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/04/11 02:55 PM

Originally Posted By: oenophore
Er, what does G mean?

Perry has an annoying habit of writing long screeds - sometimes making sense, other times pushing his religion on us - then thinking better of it and editing the post, replacing it with a single letter.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/04/11 06:47 PM

Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: oenophore
Er, what does G mean?

Perry has an annoying habit of writing long screeds - sometimes making sense, other times pushing his religion on us - then thinking better of it and editing the post, replacing it with a single letter.


O
Posted by: Coppertone

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/04/11 06:50 PM

K
Posted by: Kent

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/05/11 01:04 PM

Y
Posted by: tradjunkie

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/05/11 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: oenophore
One will have to admit that a post consisting entirely of the letter G that's not an immediate response to a question is quite mysterious.


G was the question, not the response.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 05:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Lucander
Dude, what's up with all the A4 and A5, did you have an ugly wife or bad job back then?
DL

You mean on that 5.5, Frogs Head? No, I do not "have an ugly wife" and I don't think a person's worth is based on their material value, that's something trolls learn from watching too much television.

But on behalf of everyone who does solo, that is not the reason we solo. First, soloing is ultimate a part of climbing, you will end up having to do it to one degree or another in certain circumstances sooner or later. I for the most part, I only solo things I know I can do, and I have climbed long enough that I should know what I should and should not do. Of course accidents … and other things … do happen. So you never know.

For example a couple of years ago when soloing Wonderland I narrowly missed having a snake fall on me when I was just off the crux climbing with Ajax Green. Some vultures had chased a six foot black racer off the top of the cliff and it came down the route I was on. Fortunately I had just moved off route 3' feet for a few seconds to shake out. If the snake had fallen out of the sky a few seconds sooner or later I would have been pulling 5.8 moves with a snake attached to my head. And I am certain that the snake would not want to be going back up to see the vultures again, doing everything in his power to prevent me.

Another time, when I was very young, I decided to solo Erect Direction. When I came around the second corner it was dripping on my head. When I got up into the roof the chalked up holds where wet. So now what?, what choice did I really have now?, I did not wish to attempt down climbing those awkward moves, as you can imagine. So, now I had to try to do the crux, my life depended on it for sure. But I could not bring myself to extend out over that void again on soap. I was tired, and now I could not climb up nor could I climb down, however I spotted some people on the carriage road and yelled for help. That was kind of awkward and embarrassing, but what the Hell, at that point I was in over my head, and I could not hang out here forever. After about an hour uncertain of my temporal or eternal fate they rapped down and threw me a rope under the overhang and I tied it around my waste with one hand. It felt good to be rescued, and from that day I vowed to never solo again until I first could at least know for sure where I was going. I went home and locked the door to my room and did not come out for about a month. After 30 days or so I concluded that there must be a God, being that the most important thing in the world is love, in relationship to love being a servant of love. And that since God did exist, then Jesus must be God, and therefore logically I decided to trust what He did for me, and realize that I could get back to soloing again without worrying about ending up in the lake of fire.

I am not trying to push my religion here, just trying to answer the quesion of what soloing means to me. Like it or lump it.

But you do not have to be soloing at all to die climbing. More of my close calls have happened while "tied in" at work. I can climb all the time, not just on the weekends. One time my screw-gate, unbeknownst to me, screwed itself down and open. Before I realized it I was flying through the air "free falling" in space out of a 60' tree! I said a quick prayer: "Jesus, if you don't do something *now* I am going to hit that fence I see and die." I was sailing down head first. Without cause my saw got caught up over a branch out of the way, the key ring on the saw should have broken free, but it didn't. [Funny … I called to mind Tom Petty's song and could not get it out of my head after it happened] The number of close calls I have had are too many to count. Trust me, now they just are very rare now, but they still will happen. There is "nothing" you can do about them, they are a part of life in the ultimate sense of the word.

To these people who believe they are in full control of their destinies I say, try typing a letter fast and see if you can do it without hitting the wrong keys. Some people only believe dying is for fools and accidents don't happen, [Charlie Sheen Interview Winning]. I will not mention any names, but heard some climbers saying this to another climber, who had broken his back while climbing. I was shocked how little they understood, some people get up unprotected climbs by remaining in denial, but It was not too long after that that these same persons fell and broke all their bones while roped together. Accidents do happen and climbing is dangerous whether you want to admit it or not. You just have to pray and you do all you can to avoid those … accidents. That's all you can do, pray … pray hard!

You cannot stop the snakes from falling out of the sky no matter how hard you try.
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 10:07 AM

You cannot stop the snakes from falling out of the sky no matter how hard you try.

Now that's funny!
But the above post belongs in the Free Soloing thread.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 12:50 PM

But, Oeno! This is Don's thread. The Grand Traverse thread. And, boyo are we traversing now. LOL wink
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 01:53 PM

Originally Posted By: oenophore
You cannot stop the snakes from falling out of the sky no matter how hard you try.

Now that's funny!
But the above post belongs in the Free Soloing thread.


I disagree, I need to be able to respond to posts that have already been allowed by the moderator.
Posted by: Coppertone

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 03:14 PM

Did you have time to come up with all of these ramblings when you locked yourself in a room for 30 days and found god? Did you fast for that time or actually leave the room for bread and water?

I particularly like your stance on soloing when you say "I for the most part, I only solo things I know I can do". Nice approach. On those occasions where you solo things that you can't do, is your trust in God that he will save you once you get in over your head?
Posted by: Lucander

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 03:16 PM

That story about a snake on Wonderland is the single best anecdote I've ever heard about the Gunks.

Climb on!
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 03:17 PM

PS

I believe the thinking that says that soloing is dangerous and climbing is safe is the same kind of thinking that says it is OK to bringing your children up to the cliff with helmets, not understanding the ramifications of what you are doing.

For example, some of the climbs have piles of loose rocks at the top that fall down any time on their own or that can fall down when the leader gets to the top. If you have to bring your children to the cliff why don't these people who bring their children go to the top first and pick up all the loose rocks off the top of the cliff and then move them to the base in 5 gallon buckets. When they don't they are endangering the welfare of a minor, a judge can order jail time if they get hurt. But who wants to move rocks every weekend they come up, seems over excessive, right? Or what about taking ground falls on your kids when the person holding the rope gets distracted? There are a lot of things here you and your children can learn the hard way.

Climbing is no different than racecar driving or surfing 20' waves with an undertow. Children are not ready to climb, without an intense amount of experienced supervision, and preparation. Climbing with children is like dismantling a nuclear bomb.

One time I brought my son up yellow ridge. On the second pitch I called down to him and told him to untie the rope that I had tied to the anchors. He did that, and then he partially untied a rope attached to his harness and ended up soloing. Good thing he did not fall. Climbing is dangerous, you can die, and if you bring your bring your children up here they can die too, that's the facts plain and simple. As a rule, children do not belong here, they are too young to decide for themselves if they are willing to take these risks.


Furthermore, I am opposed to the idea of the mass marketing of society by the climbing gyms and the garment and gear manufactures. Climbing mountains is for those who have that calling to come here and climb. Mountain climbing is not something monkeys can do or should try. You have to be mechanically inclined and have a natural intuition that already understands and can determined what is going on around you, you have to be a god. You have to be able to make life concerning and complex choices under pressure. And ultimately you have to be willing to take the risk of getting seriously hurt and killing yourself and others. If you are willing to die be a part of someone else dying, go climbing, if not, stay home, find something else to do.

Now someone might ask, then, way do you climb, or allow your son to climb with you, seeing you might kill him? My answer to that is that my son and I do it for a living, we are steeplejacks and hang off ropes with torches and heavy saws. For us climbing is a way to learn and prepare for work. For other people it may be in their blood, or they may need to find the answers to the meaning of life. A good reason to climbing is to understand your responsibility in the world is directly connected to what you do. But I would not say that climbing is something that everyone should try whenever they feel like it, or that the cliff is a great place to bring your children.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 03:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Coppertone
On those occasions where you solo things that you can't do, is your trust in God that he will save you once you get in over your head?


I am already in over my head, I cannot make any mistakes. Ultimately, I am not here keeping myself alive anyway.
Posted by: retroscree

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: Lucander
Dude, what's up with all the A4 and A5, did you have an ugly wife or bad job back then?
DL

You mean on that 5.5, Frogs Head? No, I do not "have an ugly wife" and I don't think a person's worth is based on their material value, that's something trolls learn from watching too much television.

But on behalf of everyone who does solo, that is not the reason we solo. First, soloing is ultimate a part of climbing, you will end up having to do it to one degree or another in certain circumstances sooner or later. I for the most part, I only solo things I know I can do, and I have climbed long enough that I should know what I should and should not do. Of course accidents … and other things … do happen. So you never know.

For example a couple of years ago when soloing Wonderland I narrowly missed having a snake fall on me when I was just off the crux climbing with Ajax Green. Some vultures had chased a six foot black racer off the top of the cliff and it came down the route I was on. Fortunately I had just moved off route 3' feet for a few seconds to shake out. If the snake had fallen out of the sky a few seconds sooner or later I would have been pulling 5.8 moves with a snake attached to my head. And I am certain that the snake would not want to be going back up to see the vultures again, doing everything in his power to prevent me.

Another time, when I was very young, I decided to solo Erect Direction. When I came around the second corner it was dripping on my head. When I got up into the roof the chalked up holds where wet. So now what?, what choice did I really have now?, I did not wish to attempt down climbing those awkward moves, as you can imagine. So, now I had to try to do the crux, my life depended on it for sure. But I could not bring myself to extend out over that void again on soap. I was tired, and now I could not climb up nor could I climb down, however I spotted some people on the carriage road and yelled for help. That was kind of awkward and embarrassing, but what the Hell, at that point I was in over my head, and I could not hang out here forever. After about an hour uncertain of my temporal or eternal fate they rapped down and threw me a rope under the overhang and I tied it around my waste with one hand. It felt good to be rescued, and from that day I vowed to never solo again until I first could at least know for sure where I was going. I went home and locked the door to my room and did not come out for about a month. After 30 days or so I concluded that there must be a God, being that the most important thing in the world is love, in relationship to love being a servant of love. And that since God did exist, then Jesus must be God, and therefore logically I decided to trust what He did for me, and realize that I could get back to soloing again without worrying about ending up in the lake of fire.

I am not trying to push my religion here, just trying to answer the quesion of what soloing means to me. Like it or lump it.

But you do not have to be soloing at all to die climbing. More of my close calls have happened while "tied in" at work. I can climb all the time, not just on the weekends. One time my screw-gate, unbeknownst to me, screwed itself down and open. Before I realized it I was flying through the air "free falling" in space out of a 60' tree! I said a quick prayer: "Jesus, if you don't do something *now* I am going to hit that fence I see and die." I was sailing down head first. Without cause my saw got caught up over a branch out of the way, the key ring on the saw should have broken free, but it didn't. [Funny … I called to mind Tom Petty's song and could not get it out of my head after it happened] The number of close calls I have had are too many to count. Trust me, now they just are very rare now, but they still will happen. There is "nothing" you can do about them, they are a part of life in the ultimate sense of the word.

To these people who believe they are in full control of their destinies I say, try typing a letter fast and see if you can do it without hitting the wrong keys. Some people only believe dying is for fools and accidents don't happen, [Charlie Sheen Interview Winning]. I will not mention any names, but heard some climbers saying this to another climber, who had broken his back while climbing. I was shocked how little they understood, some people get up unprotected climbs by remaining in denial, but It was not too long after that that these same persons fell and broke all their bones while roped together. Accidents do happen and climbing is dangerous whether you want to admit it or not. You just have to pray and you do all you can to avoid those … accidents. That's all you can do, pray … pray hard!

You cannot stop the snakes from falling out of the sky no matter how hard you try.


This was in the free soloing thread....only to be replaced by the enigmatic "G" edit.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 04:24 PM

Gawd, you're right Retro, I thought I was having a deja vu out of my mind experience when I saw Don's last post reappear. The honeymoon here is way past over.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 06:05 PM


Originally Posted By: Rickster
The honeymoon here is way past over.


Someone asked me a question in the beginning of the thread. The question loomed over all the following posts for many weeks. The question was: "Dude, what's up with all the A4 and A5, did you have an ugly wife or bad job back then? " I suppose some people were content to believe that I had an ugly wife. That where there is any lack of sex one must needs get to the shower or the solo and the generating of new A4 A5 routes. The question has to do with the very nuts and bolts of this thread on new routes in the first place! Now, how else am I supposed answer that except on this thread, there is no other place to answer it.

Furthermore, because the moderator did not erase it off the thread back in the beginning, then I am left with no choice but to answer it here.

Thirdly, especially now when people I do not even know are asking me the damn question of this thread on the carriage road. People I do not even know are using it as a reference point to this thread. My son who was with me, ignorant of the post did not understand what he was talking about, so I had to explain it to him.

I realized I had to answer it. I realize that I am answering the question about soloing, but I am also answering the question about a lot of things. But doing an A5 as a new route, the subject of these threads here, is the very same subject as this question as it has to do with soloing. It is not off topic.
However ultimately it is no fault of the moderator that there is some variation because ultimately all these things are interconnected. I am just trying to post an answer to this insult, which in fact may in some cases have some legitimate concerns for these types of new routes. Whatever the case, I am addressing a pre-established question that marks the thread, there is no rational reasoning that I can think of as to why I would need to answer that elsewhere.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/06/11 11:38 PM

OK I'll try and be normal for a change and attempt to post in topic. Just bash me if I sing out of tune.
Posted by: curmudgeon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/07/11 02:31 AM

G
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/07/11 02:51 PM

Is that G major or G minor?
Posted by: curmudgeon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/07/11 03:43 PM

I tried this last night without the lines and everything shifted to the left.

Redirectionalism, the alphabet topo.

Start on the letter M and scrabble to the top.

R
_E
_DIRECT
_____I
_____O
____N
____A
____L
_____I
____S
_____M
Posted by: Advocacy group

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/07/11 03:54 PM

Originally Posted By: oenophore
Is that G major or G minor?


Oenone, there is more than one choice for each. For major we could have Lydian or whole tone or Lydian augmented to name a few. As for minor you could have super locrian, harmonic minor, melodic minor etc.. Either way Mohonk still gives us the blues.
Posted by: retroscree

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/07/11 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Advocacy group
Either way Mohonk still gives us me and my few whiny acquaintances the blues.

Do you really have to interject this crap crusade of yours into every effing thread?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/12/12 04:15 AM

REDIRECTIONALISM DIRECT 5.13 C R August 2, 2011 Joshua Perry & Don Perry. Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH Climb up past two separated right facing corners to an overhang. Traverse right under overhang to another right facing corner over the roof. Climb through right facing corner to the base of a ramp. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top and a small ledge.

SECOND PITCH Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof at a notch directly over the Meat Cleaver. Climb upwards and then left (this is the point where Redirectionalism goes direct) around the left side of a wide black streak into overhangs above and protection. Move back down to belay on a narrow ledge to the left.

THIRD PITCH At the overhangs, climb straight up over small roofs directly over the top of the left side of the Meat-Cleaver, at the same time while climbing left around a large white bulge and up to roof. Under the roof traverse right past a small hole 5' to turn roof directly over center of Meat-Cleaver, which is at the same time under a horizontal crack under the next roof at its widest opening. The aforementioned roof is over and a part of the regular route. Turn narrow roof and the wider roof above on the regular route and climb up to the last roof to a hanging belay.

VARIATION 5.11. Up to the last roof continue straight up to it and over the roof to top. Use under clings on the last roof to turn roof just under a right facing corner over the roof.

FOURTH PITCH Between the Meleski, Gruenberg Variation and the afore mentioned forth pitch variation of Redirectionalism Direct, climb up into short right facing corners in the overhang to the top. There is an unavoidable run-out out and over the roof on 5.13+ moves. We have already climbed it with aid on hooks at A3, however we are now working to free this variation in better style, it is no longer an aid climb. Trying to protect it or aid it will damage the climb. There is a place for a small tcu, but it does not hold consistently and pops out.




Redirectionalism Direct 5.13 C R Joshua Perry & Donald Perry 8.2.11


Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/19/12 02:17 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
REDIRECTIONALISM DIRECT 5.13 August 2, 2011 Joshua Perry & Don Perry. Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH 5.9 Climb up past two separated right facing corners to an overhang. Traverse right under overhang to another right facing corner over the roof. Climb through this right facing corner to the base of a ramp. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top and a small ledge.

SECOND PITCH 5.12 Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof at a notch directly over the Meat Cleaver. Climb upwards and then left (this is the point where Redirectionalism goes direct) around the left side of a wide black streak into overhangs above and protection. Move back down to belay on a narrow ledge to the left.

THIRD PITCH 5.12 At the overhangs, climb slight right over small roofs, then left around a large white bulge and up to roof. Under the roof traverse right pasting a small hole 5' to turn the immediate roof in the middle of the next roof above Climbing straight up to belay under the last roof on the climb.

VARIATION 5.11. Continue straight over the last roof to the top.

FOURTH PITCH 5.13 Between the Meleski, Gruenberg Variation and the afore mentioned forth pitch variation of Redirectionalism Direct, climb up into short right facing corners in the overhang to the top. The pitch has no protection.




Redirectionalism Direct 5.13 Joshua Perry & Donald Perry 8.2.11


Posted by: AOR

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/19/12 11:50 AM

Don...may I ask the most obvious question?

Why do you continue to post your route description over and over again? Does it change that much since the last post?
Posted by: curmudgeon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/19/12 01:25 PM

Don, Permission to use my Millbrook photo is officially over. I let you slide the first few times you posted it after borrowing (stealing) it from the internet. This is about the tenth time. What's up with that?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/19/12 01:57 PM

Originally Posted By: curmudgeon
Don, Permission to use my Millbrook photo is officially over. I let you slide the first few times you posted it after borrowing (stealing) it from the internet. This is about the tenth time. What's up with that?


Wow, really?, this is the first time you complained I remove it after I asked you about it and you gave me no answer, do you have a quote that shows otherwise? I even offered to pay you for its use here. Why did you wait all the way till now to complain? I will see that it is removed entirely and use my own picture. No hard feelings, anyone can take one from the base that looks perfectly fine, and I have one like that already.

My reason for reposting the description is because of the inability to edit the description and improve it, the only option available is to repost it. The way the forum is set gives me no other choice. Unless there something I am missing and thus your reason for complaining?

How ironic, now you know what is going to happen next?
Posted by: curmudgeon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/19/12 02:10 PM

Maybe you can edit out my name too in the above post as that is in violation of gunks.com rules.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/19/12 02:15 PM

i did, yet your name is already in other posts not by me.
Posted by: curmudgeon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/19/12 02:36 PM

You can leave the photo up I'm just saying that you have used it enough times already.

Quote:
i did, yet your name is already in other posts not by me.




If you say so. Rickster has refered to me as cur but that's the only reference to me here other than curmudgeon that I can think of.



Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/19/12 03:44 PM

Originally Posted By: curmudgeon
You can leave the photo up I'm just saying that you have used it enough times already.

Quote:
i did, yet your name is already in other posts not by me.




If you say so. Rickster has refered to me as cur but that's the only reference to me here other than curmudgeon that I can think of.





No that's OK. I understand I am a pain that I post too much. Yet, now you guys are making me post even more.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/19/12 04:00 PM

REDIRECTIONALISM 5.12 R Winter of 1978 & 1979 Don Perry and Michael Burlingame Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH Climb up past two separated right facing corners to an overhang. Traverse right under overhang to another right facing corner over the roof. Climb through right facing corner to the base of a ramp. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top and a small ledge.

SECOND PITCH Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof. Turn the roof over the Meat Cleaver, and climb upwards 10' and then right to The Black Meat Clever which faces left. Climb over a over roof and off to the right down a long parallel crack that make up the border for a giant block. Place gear over the block for a hanging belay.

THIRD PITCH Move back to the Z (the overhangs here form a Z as seen from the road) and climb up and left and left again under overhangs to their end, to then climb up a few feet midway before the giant roof. Move left and down to a hanging belay at the top of a hanging block, we called this block the tuning fork.

FOURTH PITCH Climb up to the roof and traverse left to climb into the feature we named The Bombay Chimney to the top.
Note: We took a 1" X 5" wide board to sit or stand on.



REDIRECTIONALISM DIRECT 5.13 August 2, 2011 Joshua Perry & Don Perry. Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH 5.9 Climb up past two separated right facing corners to an overhang. Traverse right under overhang to another right facing corner over the roof. Climb through this right facing corner to the base of a ramp. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top and a small ledge.

SECOND PITCH 5.12 Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof at a notch directly over the Meat Cleaver. Climb upwards and then left (this is the point where Redirectionalism goes direct) around the left side of a wide black streak into overhangs above and protection. Move back down to belay on a narrow ledge to the left.

THIRD PITCH 5.12 At the overhangs, climb slight right over small roofs, then left around a large white bulge and up to roof. Under the roof traverse right pasting a small hole 5' to turn the immediate roof in the middle of the next roof above Climbing straight up to belay under the last roof on the climb.

VARIATION 5.11. Continue straight over the last roof to the top.

FOURTH PITCH 5.13 Between the Meleski, Gruenberg Variation and the afore mentioned forth pitch variation of Redirectionalism Direct, climb up into short right facing corners in the overhang to the top. The pitch has no protection.



Redirectionalism Direct 5.13 Joshua Perry & Donald Perry 8.2.11



Crux of third pitch of Redirectionalism Direct.
Posted by: curmudgeon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/19/12 06:47 PM

Quote:
Moderator please remove the following photos from gunks.com as I do not have access to delete them.


(not my photo)

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/20/12 04:33 AM

Originally Posted By: AOR
Don...may I ask the most obvious question?

Why do you continue to post your route description over and over again? Does it change that much since the last post?


Originally Posted By: curmudgeon
Quote:
All in favor of Don starting his very own blog say "aye".


AYE!


I will make you guys a deal. If you will help me out and remind me when I am I will quit posting ad nauseum. I need to spend more time doing other things, and frankly I cannot control myself. Once I start reading and then get into what I think is a good response it uses up too much of my time. I need to get to work. Sorry for posting too much, that bad habbit has got to go.




Posted by: Rickster

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 03/20/12 11:41 AM

Don, some advice regarding your posts.
Reread them before you hit the submit button. This will allow you to edit for both typos,spelling, grammar, and content. Chances are that if you can't make the time to read your own stuff with a critical eye, then it's too long, poorly written, confused, repetitive, or maybe just off topic. wink
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/01/12 10:23 PM

http://thewhitecliff.com/topos/images/history1large.jpg
Posted by: Alex

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 01:02 AM

WOW! Great photo Don. Have you done most of these routes? The only one in this photo I've done is New Frontier. What's a good suggestion? I'm pretty good with gear, but not up for anything above 5.11
Posted by: rg@ofmc

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 02:31 AM

The photo is mine, the route diagrams are by cfrac, with help from Romano. In order to keep the adventure level of the cliff at or near its current level, we consciously avoided providing more beta than where the routes go. Square Meal and Lessons in History are classics.
Posted by: cfrac

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By: rg@ofmc
The photo is mine, the route diagrams are by cfrac, with help from Romano. In order to keep the adventure level of the cliff at or near its current level, we consciously avoided providing more beta than where the routes go. Square Meal and Lessons in History are classics.


Thanks Rich, and a bit more follow-up, this is a work in progress, sorry to spoil the fun but I took the site off-line. Once we have it finished it will be back up for the public. The intention is to document all the routes at Millbrook and provide highly visible lines as to where the FA parties traveled (or as accurately as possible).

For Alex: As Rich said both Square Meal and Lessons are classics and both offer good protection by Millbrook standards. Time Being is another line that once you get past the 5.9X bit on p1 is well protected and wild.
Posted by: Alex

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 03:47 AM

That's cool. Your photo shows so much detail, perhaps because its on a computer screen, that it excites your interest. So much better than the Swain guidebook photos I'm looking at. Although I've done various Millbrook routes I've always been somewhat confused knowing where I am there.
How many of you have done this: Follow a Gunks route description, then find out after-the-fact that you were not even close to the right location to begin with, leafing through the guidebook to find out what the hell route you actually climbed. I've done that at Millbrook and the Near Trapps.

Thanks for the suggestions, and I'd love to print off your photos when you are done or buy a printed set.
Posted by: crimpy

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 04:09 AM


Thanks Rich, and a bit more follow-up, this is a work in progress, sorry to spoil the fun but I took the site off-line.

boo for me did not get to see~!
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 04:20 AM

well ... at least the cliff is still there : )
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 10:12 AM

Here's what that website yields:

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /topos/images/history1large.jpg on this server.

Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apache Server at thewhitecliff.com Port 80
Posted by: Rickster

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 11:46 AM

I still have access to the site http://thewhitecliff.com
Some of the pages within the site are under construction and there are some gliches to work out, but it still looks great and will prove to be a great resource for those heading that way.

Click on history then pick a time period from the menu on the left. This will bring up some more topos as well. No history, but topos are there.

A great work in progress. Kudos to those involved.
Posted by: Rickster

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 12:32 PM

Scrub that, the page was open at 7:30 am this morning, and is now "Forbidden" I look forward to seeing the completed product as the early taste was inviting.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 01:34 PM

There was nothing forbidden at the time I posted it guys, I had no devious intentions.

Personally I have found that posting unfinished works is wonderfully motivational. In the process it causes me to think with a different kind of ever ready aspiration. Just waiting till the end to post can be a real drag. Foremost, it seems to me that whatever we do, it is a work in progress. At least that is the way I look at it. Now that I finally finished writing, concerning some of my works that have taken me years to write, having re-edited them hundreds of times, I still maintain feelings of uneasiness and remembrances of concentrated thought trying to look for errors in my writings. Sometimes I try and come again to it as if I have seen it for the first time, to try and bring more clarity to it, this is always a difficult task, and this is where the light will only shine by others examining your works. Of this, you are asking something impossible of yourself, you cannot do it alone. You cannot come to the beginning of your own works, not knowing the end of the story in advance. The eyes to see into these things can only be found in the eyes of others. Unless of course you internally delete it and start over.

But ironically, you guys know that about me already. I am always posting stuff that I keep editing. And I would edit it more, rather than simply add to it, if I had the option. That is not the way it was before when you would write a book, this is only something that is now possible now that we are in the computer age, now that books can be printed on demand. Previously you had to have new additions. Editing can take on a new forum now, but you have to be willing to be more transparent in the process. This mistakes that you make, that other people will see can be bigger.

I can compare it to flashing a route, that style has something in common with what I am referring to. Yea, you get up it, but in the process you have no idea for sure what exactly to do, or what you just did, disorder is raging like a lion, and you have to give it EVERYTHING you got to control the beast. I prefer that style, yet to be honest it is not always intentional. It can be dangerous. As an example, I am probably going to re-read this post 10 more times, and even if I make no changes, I still know there is something wrong with it.

Perhaps, just perhaps, I should delete it entirely, even from my own computer. Why should anyone know my every thought? Or why should anyone have access to what I can see? Why should I tarnish the future with the past? And when the future is better than without the past, why should I be the one to bring it up again?

ECCL 7:10 "Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not inquire wisely concerning this."

It is better that I delete it.
Posted by: curmudgeon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 02:30 PM

Yada yada yada. wink
Posted by: GOclimb

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 07:13 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Personally I have found that posting unfinished works is wonderfully motivational.
Posted by: ianmanger

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 10:12 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Why should anyone know my every thought?"


We already do. Who do you think put those thoughts there?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/02/12 10:19 PM

Revelation 13

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


I fall on my sword "What an artist dies in me!". My password is "Hydra", if anyone so wishes, feel free to anonymously delete my posts as I go [or change my password] if you do not like them. You can even hijack my account!

But like the Anti-Christ when: "one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed" now my account can grow a new head, or many new heads like the Hydra. Which head is really mine?, there is no way any longer to know for sure.

BTW I deleted all my private messages to protect the innocent.
Posted by: retroscree

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/03/12 04:07 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Revelation 13

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


I fall on my sword "What an artist dies in me!". My password is "Hydra", if anyone so wishes, feel free to anonymously delete my posts as I go [or change my password] if you do not like them. You can even hijack my account!

But like the Anti-Christ when: "one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed" now my account can grow a new head, or many new heads like the Hydra. Which head is really mine?, there is no way any longer to know for sure.

BTW I deleted all my private messages to protect the innocent.


Don, we just don't give a rats ass.
Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/03/12 09:39 AM

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Don't you think that might make one hell of a movie with dramatic 3D special effects? Lady Gaga as the Harlot of Babylon, Donald Trump as the 666 beast and Woody Allen as John of Patmos -- it's a sure winner.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/03/12 11:49 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Revelation 13

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


I fall on my sword "What an artist dies in me!". My password is "Hydra", if anyone so wishes, feel free to anonymously delete my posts as I go [or change my password] if you do not like them. You can even hijack my account!

But like the Anti-Christ when: "one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed" now my account can grow a new head, or many new heads like the Hydra. Which head is really mine?, there is no way any longer to know for sure.

BTW I deleted all my private messages to protect the innocent.


I'm trying... but I can't figure out what any of this has to do with Gunks Routes.
Posted by: ianmanger

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/03/12 12:18 PM

Sometimes I think I'm the beast, and the dragon is maybe Millbrook, and who doesn't blaspheme in the middle of that shit. But I dunno, I'm in a transitional period, is all.


Originally Posted By: Mike Rawdon


I'm trying... but I can't figure out what any of this has to do with Gunks Routes.
Posted by: NYZoo

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/03/12 03:16 PM

I was thumbing through my Swain book last night for Millbrook and read an interesting statement regarding Land Grab and some other route next to it.. It said, "Both routes were explored previously by Don Perry (and another person I can't remember), their controversial mixed route was called The Meat Cleaver"
Don since you're posting here what made your previous exploration of these routes controversial? I'm assuming "mixed route" means mixed free and aid? But what was so controversial about that that Swain had to comment in the book about it?
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/04/12 02:38 AM

Well I guess the good news is that I am not disliked that much here, no one hijacked my account and changed my password. But the bad news is I am still here. Too bad, I was hoping someone would save me from this addiction.

Originally Posted By: NYZoo
Don since you're posting here what made your previous exploration of these routes controversial? I'm assuming "mixed route" means mixed free and aid? But what was so controversial about that that Swain had to comment in the book about it?




Redirectionalism 5.12. This climb is previously outlined in this thread and was done by Mike Burlingame and I back in 1979. The style had to do with resting on gear at buckets. So, as far we were concerned it went free. How could it be an aid climb we free climbed every move? It maybe something other than your traditional free climb but it is not an aid climb. Back when we came to that conclusion, that we had done enough work on it to call it a free route, the style for entry into the guide had to do with climbing between ledges without resting. The whole route has been climbed free, technically though there is a belay at every bucket. So the style is poor.

This is not the only thing we climbed on, we walked all along the whole Gunks escarpment, and then we climbed all over the place on that wall, the reason we did not and do not mention it is because our goal had been to put up the finest line available. For example, the Meleski, Gruenberg route is said to be the finest route in the Gunks. However, having explored every inch of that climb long before they were on it, we determined that was not what we were looking for. All the moves up to the Meleski, Gruenberg roof did not interest us, there is a runout up to the tuning fork that is interesting, but it is not that hard and ultimately what you are looking at is only that the moves through the tuning fork block make the climbing worthwhile up to the Meleski, Gruenberg roof. Someday that thing can fall out and there goes the whole climb off flying through the air like a bird. If the block come loose then who knows if there will be any protection at all, or maybe someone will get their fingers stuck in there if the block shifts. How can a few short moves through a block make a whole climb? That was our conclusion, so we were not interested in that part of the cliff. However, the roof was something we were interested in, and if you are going up through all that previous climbing to get to the roof, then it is worthwhile. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I am just giving you ours and the history and the thinking that has been going on before other people starting climbing up there.

The goal was to get up to what we called the Bombay Chimney just right of New Frontier on its own line on some *sustained* 5.11. We were looking for sustained climbing, we accomplished that. Mike and I came to the conclusion that the climbing would have to go through the Meat Cleaver Roof. The X climbing there is not that bad, maybe 5.9 with some tricky moves over the Meat Cleaver, but the roof can be either 5.12 -5.14 depending on how tall you are. Mike and I have done the 1st and 2nd pitches in good style. The third pitch involves some interesting rock, but the moves themselves are not that special. Here you are getting set up for a long traverse left into the Vulture Nests below the roofs. The 4th pitch traverse is very difficult to protect in the beginning, and the climbing is awkward. As the traverse goes on it gets better protected more interesting. There is a couple of rests along the way. Yet, restarting the traverse, if you fall off will be difficult, unless you are climbing on double ropes. That traverse is 5.12.

Now for the next pitch we stuck a piece of wood over the Tuning Fork to stand on, for a ledge, and we supposed that the best way to go would have been straight through the roof. But we never got around to doing it without aid. We climbed it at either end but we never spent any real time on it and did not go through it. There were some loose rocks in it that we pulled out and threw away; no one was on it before we were looking at it. But at the time our goal was first to get up into and explore that, what we called the Bombay Chimney. So we climbed up through there somewhere between Christmas and New Years day. There was about a foot of snow at the top and by the time we got there we were in the dark, but we had head lamps, and were able to rappel back down to the base. We were able to always hike up from the base and the snow made steps for us to climb all the way to the climb. Now, the best line would be to go straight up from the tuning fork through the roof, but we never got around to it. At the time our interests turned more toward Christianity and the Bible and neither of us had any more the time for climbing at the time.

Redirectionalism Direct 5.13. Mike led the 1st pitch 5.9 to the Meat Cleaver in good style and I led the 2nd 5.12 pitch in good style, my son Joshua cannot do the move over the roof and neither can some other people. It can be 5.14 if you cannot find the right hold. I have not been able to climb though the 3rd pitch in good style, but my son Joshua can lead it in good style at 5.12d. Joshua led the 4th pitch variation straight up through the last roof to the top, 5.11. Presently we are working on the A3 roof on the left, it will go, but will involve some more work. There is a run-out on 5.13a moves. I might be able to do it, but the falls are long and brutal. The only real pro you can get is under the roof, and by the time you get to where you can play with the shifty TCU, it's not worth it, go for the bucket.

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/04/12 01:15 PM

Concerning loose the rock:

We have removed a lot of unstable rock here and some big blocks. We worked at the tuning fork to see if it would fall out back in the 70's, I am not sure what is holding it in there, there are cracks all around it. It vibrates but it seemed solid.

On the second pitch, initially we went over the roof far right next to the pine tree. There was a big flake there that someone popped off, I do not know why, I thought it was pretty stable. Someone must have used a steel wreaking bar on it. The 3rd pitch of the direct route has a Frisbee like flake you go for that bends. It might be a good idea for people underneath to wear hard hats, but most likely because it is already so far out it should miss the belayer. The flake holds body weight just fine, I weigh 160 pounds and I think it is not going to come off unless someone shoves a pry bar behind it. If it comes off it will only make the climb harder. If you weigh 200 pounds it will pop off.

There is also a small flake inside the middle of the M.G. roof that makes for an important hand hold. It looks like it is pasted to the wall, when we looked at it back when we discoved the climb. I am not sure what it is that is holding it in there. We were going to remove it but because it held body weight we left it alone. Someday it will come off.

Other then that I know of nothing else loose, everything else is pretty stable now.

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/08/12 03:59 AM

http://vimeo.com/39952767
Posted by: chip

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/09/12 02:12 PM

Looks like a fun day!
Posted by: Advocacy group

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/11/12 12:41 AM

Originally Posted By: chip
Looks like a fun day!


+1

Hey Donald, Do you remember around what climb you saw the No Trespassing signs that were put up by the PIPC?

Thanks, MPNA
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/11/12 01:13 AM

White Rose, its been there forever.
Posted by: Advocacy group

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/11/12 02:20 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
White Rose, its been there forever.


Thank You
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/15/12 12:55 AM

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/15/12 12:57 AM



I took it with my cell phone.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/15/12 01:29 AM

I looked at Sudden Impact. Swain says it has a 25' runout and Williams says nothing. It looks to me like the fall is 25' not the runout, and that there are two of them [two 12' runouts]. The second one, if I am correct, is on small nuts. If I am incorrect then going by Williams the runout should be said to be the whole supposed linghth of the pitch which is 50'.

Redirectionalism Direct is actually pretty friendly compared to Sudden Impact [unless you can flash 5.13], except for the 4th pitch where you have to take 50' falls so you don't break your ankles or your skull falling off the roof. We are putting in a new route to the right of SI. Lots of problems with protection. We will probably end up toproping it, the last moves are just so desperate on a 15' runout on only OK protection.

When you get up to the last giant roof you are supposed to belay under it, and it does not look very comfortable to stand under there. Swain says you turn it at 5.11d but the lichen is so thick you would need a lawn mower to get through there. I think it would be better to just leave some fixed gear under there so you can lower back down to the bird shit. The other options are traversing right or left (your only 30 up so far), but that does not look like much fun either. If you traverse left you end up into a mess on White Rose, traversing right would be more easy, but initially the traverse is scary.

Burlingame and I looked at this route a long time before when there was a beautiful arch on the way to the belay below the cruxs.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/15/12 02:21 AM

The line drawn into the Swain book is off by 30' on Back To The Land Movment. Williams has it right.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/15/12 07:59 PM

I think a linkup of Square Meal to Nectar Vector to New Frontier[Linking NV to the beginning of the NF crux below the face.] is the best 5.11 climbing in Millbrook.



Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/22/12 02:30 AM

Today, April 21, Joshua and I freed the last pitch of Redirectionalism Direct. It is no longer an aid climb and goes free at 5.12c. It is height related in difficulty. It only took 33 years to get up the hard way.

It ascends up through a more difficult line, through a crack and right facing corners 6' right of the Mileski Gruenberge roof.



We previously led all the other pitchs but we top-roped this one. Lord willing, we will lead it later. The only pro you can get is under the roof, and to avoid troubles you have to take long falls below the tuning fork.

The weatherman said there was a 40% chance of showers today in the afternoon so the parking lot was never full. But it never rained, although it looked like it could have soon throughout the afternoon.

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/22/12 02:32 AM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
I think a linkup of Square Meal to Nectar Vector to New Frontier[Linking NV to the beginning of the NF crux below the face.] is the best 5.11 climbing in Millbrook.





I am not so sure Square Meal is a 5.11a. It could be harder.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/22/12 10:57 AM

What is the story of "Lean Cuisine". Did someone solo that yet?, I don't think it is possible to lead it. The first pitch has a sick runout on 5.11+ and the second pich is an akle breaker on an ever longer runout than you would never have imagined.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/22/12 11:16 AM

12c in approach shoes, strong work!
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/22/12 11:52 AM

No, I bought some like new EB type red rockshoes ... they don't make those high-top ship shaped toe climbing shoes anymore.

They love me on Ebay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKtlK7sn0JQ
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 04/23/12 10:23 PM

BACK TO THE LAND MOVEMENT 5.11D

In photos Dick Williams has BTTLM crossing New Frontier and going right while Swain has it crossing New Frontier and going up about 10' further over to the left.

From the long ledge Williams has: "Move Right to a left facing flake, climb the flake past a small overhang and continue up to steep face to the left side of a ceiling."

From the long ledge Swain has: "Step right from the stance to a left facing flake. Climb the flake to a ceiling."

The line in the photo is wrong in the Swain book. There is no route that goes up the middle of he orange face.

Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/01/12 07:21 PM


REDIRECTIONALISM DIRECT 5.13 August 2, 2011 Joshua Perry & Don Perry. Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH 5.9 Climb up past two separated right facing corners to an overhang. Traverse right under overhang to another right facing corner over the roof. Climb through this right facing corner to the base of a ramp. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top and a small ledge.

SECOND PITCH 5.12 Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof at a notch directly over the Meat Cleaver. Climb upwards and then left (this is the point where Redirectionalism goes direct) around the left side of a wide black streak into overhangs above and protection. Move back down to belay on a narrow ledge to the left.

THIRD PITCH 5.12 At the overhangs, climb slight right over small roofs, then left around a large white bulge and up to roof. Under the roof traverse right pasting a small hole 5' to turn the immediate roof in the middle of the next roof above Climbing straight up to belay under the last roof on the climb.

FOURTH PITCH 5.13 Traverse left 6' just before the obvious break in the giant roof. Turn the roof through a hairline crack and right facing corners that start 6' out over the overhang. Climb up into short right facing corners in the overhang to under another overhang just before the top. This pitch has no protection.

FIFTH PITCH 5.12. Traverse left on good holds to a giant left facing corner facing New Frontier 10' right of Redirectionalism. Climb over the prow to the top and reconnect with Redirectionalism at the finish.



Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/06/12 09:18 AM



Correction below. Found placement for BLACK DIAMOND CAMALOT C3 - 000 on 4th pitch in small slot. Make sure it is in aall the way with the inside cam facing to the left and it will not damage the rock.





Follow link above to video

REDIRECTIONALISM DIRECT 5.13 August 2, 2011 Joshua Perry & Don Perry. Start 45 right of New Frontier.

FIRST PITCH 5.9 Climb up past two separated right facing corners to an overhang. Traverse right under overhang to another right facing corner over the roof. Climb through this right facing corner to the base of a ramp. Climb up a ramp left (this ramp is called The White Meat Cleaver) to its top and a small ledge.

SECOND PITCH 5.12 Traverse right a few feet and up to the roof at a notch directly over the Meat Cleaver. Climb upwards and then left (this is the point where Redirectionalism goes direct) around the left side of a wide black streak into overhangs above and protection. Move back down to belay on a narrow ledge to the left.

THIRD PITCH 5.12 At the overhangs, climb slight right over small roofs, then left around a large white bulge and up to roof. Under the roof traverse right pasting a small hole 5' to turn the immediate roof in the middle of the next roof above Climbing straight up to belay under the last roof on the climb.

FOURTH PITCH 5.13 Traverse left 6' just before the obvious break in the giant roof. Turn the roof through a hairline crack and right facing corners that start 6' out over the overhang. Climb up into short right facing corners in the overhang and left a few to under another overhang just before the top.

FIFTH PITCH 5.12. Traverse left on good holds to a giant left facing outisde corner facing New Frontier 10' right of Redirectionalism. Climb over the prow to the top and reconnect with Redirectionalism at the finish.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/13/12 03:18 PM



Posted by: donald perry

Re: MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 05/14/12 11:37 AM



Pictures above have embedded links to videos.
Posted by: oenophore

Re: MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 05/14/12 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Pictures above have embedded links to videos.
The climbing is good but the cinematography could be better
Posted by: johnm

Re: MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 05/14/12 05:51 PM

Cool stuff!
Yikes.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 05/14/12 11:02 PM

Originally Posted By: oenophore
Originally Posted By: donald perry
Pictures above have embedded links to videos.
The climbing is good but the cinematography could be better


Your right I have to do it again ... those are just the parts that did not get deleted.

However, then again I am surprised that you say this. Previously you said you would rather shots be more candid. What happened?

Do you think there should be music, or just no talking, or something else? The thing about music is, everyone has their own tastes, so maybe just the rooster is OK?
Posted by: chip

Re: MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 05/15/12 05:49 PM

Looks a wee bit run-out. Nice piece of rock there and nice climbing, Donald.
Posted by: TARGHEE

Re: MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 05/15/12 09:41 PM

I'll second that; great footage Don. And impressive climbing on hallowed ground. That's a section of rock I was pretty sure I would never see up close in person
Posted by: donald perry

Re: MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 05/16/12 12:27 AM



Thanks, guys.

Originally Posted By: chip
Looks a wee bit run-out. Nice piece of rock there and nice climbing, Donald.


I want to add that the type of climbing, where you lead from the ground up without beta, is not something you just go do, as it might appear in these videos. There is no place to put protection, if you fall you can get seriously hurt, to say the least. You do not have a lot of options when there is no gear, and that's the way these two pitches were originally done.

"Well then [someone might say], drill some bolts, the climb needs it to make it safe for the people." But here there is safety, but it is not found in bolts it is found in the climber. The safety is in knowing your abilities as your strengths decrease, knowing how to read the rock, knowing how to fall, knowing when you will fall, knowing your ego, and knowing where you came from.

If you can really know these things on the easier climbs you remember, and eliminate falls as a skill you develop, then you can work up into harder climbing. But you have to know how to stay under your limits. It takes years of patients learning lessons on other climbs to perfect this margin. Until then things will not always be as they first appear. In other words these climbs have surprises for climbers who have not first gone through all the necessary schooling. Here there are many surprises for climbers who have not completed all the homework and cheated their way through tests. Yes, you may be able to get away without a well grounded education, but not for long. A good professor will catch his cheaters, expel them, and banish them from these schools of learning forever. And you never learn everything.

The point I am making is not to be saying these type of climbs, climbs like Scary Area, separate the men from the boys. What I am saying is these climbs can be safer and easy if you have done your homework. Nevertheless, this is rock-climbing; it is not safe, it's very wild and dangerous in its natural form, no matter how skilled you are. This is not the place for the unlearned and the foolish; proceed only with the utter most fear and reverence.
Posted by: Frank Florence

Re: MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 05/16/12 12:56 AM

Good for you, Donald. That's a nice powerglide over the roof in the second of the pair of embedded videos. Tough climbing.

But where's your fashion sense? Camo pants and bright red shoes? Are we low visual impact or not?
Posted by: talus

Re: MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 05/16/12 11:14 AM

"Well then [someone might say], drill some bolts, the climb needs it to make it safe for the people." But here there is safety, but it is not found in bolts it is found in the climber. The safety is in knowing your abilities as your strengths decrease, knowing how to read the rock, knowing how to fall, knowing when you will fall, knowing your ego, and knowing where you came from."

That's right! trapp masters need not apply
Posted by: SethG

Re: MILLBROOK and THE GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE ETC - 05/16/12 01:53 PM

I dig the pants and the footwear.

I don't think I could get away with it, but it works for you, Don.

Those runouts, however, scare the crap out of me.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/16/12 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: SethG
Those runouts, however, scare the crap out of me.


If you are going to have a success there has to be the following factors at work:

Destination: Where is the destination? This has to do with a vision and knowing where you are going and knowing where you are. This involves developing a plan and synchronizing your strategic Intent for success. Now note this is not the top of the climb! The destination is within you, to be developing good health and strength, learning how to down climb and how to reduce or avoid falls, that is understanding yourself and the climb you are on. Learning how to get the proper protection on each climb you are on. You will find that your experiences on one climb, what you will learn will help you on the next climb and so on. And if you have the right protocol the climbing will take care of itself. In this concept flashing is not recognized. On a climb like cobra crack you would have it sewn up. You do not focuses on the top, you need to focus on where you are right now one small step at a time past the top of the climb you are on right now. The destination is development. And if you are just learning to climb, there is no need to be taking falls for a long long time, especially if you are learning to lead.

Development: You always need to remain teachable, always learning and evolving as you go. If you are not ready to learn, if you become hard headed and not ready to test out new ideas, if you become stagnant you will still learn but now it will be the hard way. You have to have some fear, reverence and good respect for your partners, your mentors and the climb … what you are getting yourself into.

Disciple: This is a key and an aspect that you can count on that you will need the most work on. It has to do with making sure you prioritize and execute on what you're trying to do. It's easy to have a vision and a goal to get to the top; it's another thing to have a focused disciple to execute it. And here I am talking about exercise, safety first not moving past poor or untested [experientially or physically] protection and taking the time for planning. This has to do with and ethics that put us in a place where certain principles are followed.

Determination: This is the most important over all. However, this needs to be tempered with patients. You can only go so fast and you cannot go any faster than your development. You need to be able to keep this in check and foremost be determined toward development. In other words your determination foremost needs to be that you will come away from each climb with having learned something as well as getting a good workout mentally and physically so you can hang out for longer periods of time and place gear until sometimes you will need to down climb, or if you are experienced, lower off. It does not have to do with pushing your way up climbs till you fall off. In that case none of this means anything. That has nothing to do with the art of *rock* climbing.
Posted by: SethG

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/16/12 09:59 PM

I find it helps, when I read passages like the above, to pretend it is Yoda speaking. Sometimes it is fun and aids in the suspension of disbelief to rearrange the words to make them even more Yodaesque.

Determination: most important over all, this is.
Posted by: retroscree

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/17/12 06:13 AM

Originally Posted By: SethG
I find it helps, when I read passages like the above, to pretend it is Yoda speaking. Sometimes it is fun and aids in the suspension of disbelief to rearrange the words to make them even more Yodaesque.

Determination: most important over all, this is.

Hmm. I thought I was merely lacking a gibberish-to-English dictionary.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/17/12 02:24 PM

Originally Posted By: retroscree
Originally Posted By: SethG
I find it helps, when I read passages like the above, to pretend it is Yoda speaking. Sometimes it is fun and aids in the suspension of disbelief to rearrange the words to make them even more Yodaesque.

Determination: most important over all, this is.

Hmm. I thought I was merely lacking a gibberish-to-English dictionary.


Retroscree, I need help with video if you are interested ... send me a im. thanks djp
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/20/12 04:25 PM

Redirectionalism 5th Pitch 5.11

The bottom picture has a video linkup








Posted by: oenophore

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/20/12 09:35 PM

A cliffhanger there, no pun intended.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/27/12 05:58 PM

error
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/27/12 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
I looked at Sudden Impact. Swain says it has a 25' runout and Williams says nothing. It looks to me like the fall is 25' not the runout, and that there are two of them [two 12' runouts]. The second one, if I am correct, is on small nuts. If I am incorrect then going by Williams the runout should be said to be the whole supposed length of the pitch which is 50'.

Redirectionalism is actually pretty friendly compared to Sudden Impact[.] …

When you get up to the last giant roof … Swain says you turn it at 5.11d, probably only because the lichen is so thick you would need a lawn mower to get through there.



Sudden Impact Beta:

You can get a bomber white .125 tricam at the base of the corner reducing the 15' run-out to around 12.

Above there you can get a near 101% bomber pink .5 tricam up 15', and then you have to run it out another 15'. It would help if they made them with wider inside tracks or 0.020 less wide on the right side since it is right on the edge. Nevertheless expect that it takes at least 10 minutes to get it out with a tool even if you know how to do it.

Concerning running it out another 15', you can also reduce that too and get some tcu placements along the way around some hollow shit, 000 Black Diamond, Wild Country Z4. Body weight has been OK, but in a fall it is anyone's guess if the 60# block can come out.

And then there is an issue with the outside corner below you, it seems possible that a rope could get hung-up. Bring some duct tape. Nevertheless, if your falls are out of the corner right, as they should be, you may not need the tape.

At the top of the corner under the roof you can get the bigger size cams
under 1 1 / 2 ".
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/28/12 05:17 PM

101%

There is a 25 year history of filing tricams to fit smaller cracks, and this is one of the reasons why camp came out with the black tricam. The pin also has been filed to fit cracks in the past. Filing tricams is not recommended by Camp. So when I say near 101% I mean a category between 99-101. Failure of the pin that sticks out the ends happens as a snap in the pin, the pin does not bend out of the holes on the sides so I am told.

Depending your weight, the white tricam can hold a 12 foot fall, the black maybe 30, and the pink can go forever, unless you flie it in the wrong place.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/28/12 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
101%

Failure of the pin that sticks out the ends happens as a snap in the pin, the pin does not bend out of the holes on the sides so I am told.


I don't believe that. The pink Tricam is rated 1.5X stronger in "active" mode than passive. If the steel pin snaps as the failure mode, it wouldn't matter which way you pull it. IMO only snapping of the aluminum end points is consistent with the ratings.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/28/12 10:42 PM

Well, yes I am talking about having the sling over the cam as it was designed for. But to get it into the crack an extra few thousands of an inch you need to use a file.

The aluminum end points are what is said to snap first.
So I would not suggest filing those.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/31/12 12:15 PM

Originally Posted By: donald perry
Originally Posted By: SethG
Those runouts, however, scare the crap out of me.


Disciple: This is a key ...


Sorry, I meant discipline.
Posted by: donald perry

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 05/31/12 03:15 PM

The pink cam goes in pointing left, and you may have to tap it with a nut tool to set it place. So don't think it's going to be easy once you get up there.
Posted by: crimpy

Re: THE NORTHERN MILLBROOK GRAND TRAVERSE LEDGE - 09/16/12 01:33 PM

just clicked on the vido pic....nice!
looks like dads rule that day. love the ending.