Awosting Reserve for sale

Posted by: RangerRob

Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/22/05 02:36 AM

Anyone see that the Awosting Reserve is for sale as a result of a lawsuit filed against Bradley by the sacked developers? Seems it has a market value of 35 million and OSI has offered 17 million. Too bad if they get it they will turn it over to PIPC and you won't be able to do anything on it anyway. Now, if all those people who had a Save The Ridge sign on their lawn or car would fork over a hundred bucks each or so...maybe we could keep the property out of the hands of another developer. That'll never happen though.

RR
Posted by: yorick

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/22/05 10:45 AM

Quote:

Too bad if they get it they will turn it over to PIPC and you won't be able to do anything on it anyway.





Now, now, Mr. Ranger Man, you know that's prime long-tail breeding grounds. Least it was 'til Mr. Bradley started a road building back in thar. Gotta have some places left where folks can chance it so's they can feel like food, where mountain clamberers poaching routes t'ain't nothing but fresh meat on a string. It's powerful good for the soul traipsin 'round a place where a fellar might end up in some big cat's belly.

Keeps reminding homo sapiens 'bout the natural order of thangs - makes 'em stay right-sized.
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/22/05 03:13 PM

Quote:

Now, now, Mr. Ranger Man, you know that's prime long-tail breeding grounds. Least it was 'til Mr. Bradley started a road building back in thar. Gotta have some places left where folks can chance it so's they can feel like food, where mountain clamberers poaching routes t'ain't nothing but fresh meat on a string. It's powerful good for the soul traipsin 'round a place where a fellar might end up in some big cat's belly.

Keeps reminding homo sapiens 'bout the natural order of thangs - makes 'em stay right-sized.




Huh?
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/22/05 05:15 PM

alas, poor yorick... seems to have taken leave of the english language.
Posted by: Smike

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/24/05 01:34 PM

http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2005/10/18/forsale1.htm

http://www.savethegunks.com/nthr101805.htm

http://www.elliman.com/Listing.aspx?ListingID=DE05425&SearchType=Broker_Current&BID=LJD
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/25/05 11:41 AM

I think he's smoking some mary joo wanna.

RR
Posted by: oenophore

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/25/05 04:51 PM

It seems that the $35 million "market value" is just an asking price. I'd think that a savvy developer would know he has a big fight ahead of him if he wants to make a handy profit via development. Let's see what it sells for.
Posted by: crackers

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/25/05 06:26 PM

Well, i still have $20k earmarked for a house, and if that's my downpayment, I'd only have to pay $216k a month for 30 years to pay off the mortage.

Anybody wanna go halves?
Posted by: browndog2

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/26/05 05:37 PM

Bake sale anybody?
Posted by: nerdom

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/26/05 06:44 PM

the local paper up there had an article about OSI's offer, with someone involved quoted as saying they thought they had a good chance of getting acceptance. I hope so.
Posted by: Kent

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/26/05 07:44 PM

A combined offer, by OSI and the Trust for Public Lands (TPL), of $17 million has been made. If that offer is successful the state will likely end up with the land. Although on it's surface this sounds great, if it becomes state land it will no longer be within the jurisdiction of Gardiner or Gardiner's zoning laws. For decades the state has made efforts to acquire the land by emminent domain but without funds allocated to pay for said taking. Their plan in the past has been to open a second entrance to Minnewaska State Park replete with extensive parking lots and bus depot. The Mohonk Preserve boasts of a half million visitors a year. It seems reasonable to expect a half million or more visitors a year will enter or visit an expanded Minnewaska State Park through Awosting. This bodes well for neither the people of Gardiner or the ecology of the ridge.

Also, the diiference between the asking price of $35 million and the offered price of $17 million, and the possible unwillingness of anyone to offer more, may well be because the zoning law is hanging over much of the land on the ridge, including Awosting Reserve, like the Sword of Damocles. This seems to be the intention of the local land preservation community as articulated in the now notorious words of Chris Moratz, Gunks Climbers Coalition spokesperson, when referring to a different piece of land affected by the proposed zoning law.

“….an offer (by OSI) was made last year, with our help and advocacy, on the upper 20 acres or so, which includes a large part of the face of Millbrook. The offer was rejected. The owner wanted more money. If successful in purchasing, the land would be turned over to either PIPC or Mohonk Preserve. If the new zoning goes through, the property may become less valuable to the landowner (speaking of the talus and cliff only) and he may become much more willing to do the deal. This is one example of how these things are approached”.

So by depressing the price of Awosting by $10 or $15 million, the zoning law, supported by the local land preservation community, may open the Town of Gardiner up to litigation for damages in those amounts. Again the OSI/TPL offer does not bode well for the people of Gardiner.
Posted by: oenophore

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/26/05 09:33 PM

So by depressing the price of Awosting by $10 or $15 million, the zoning law, supported by the local land preservation community, may open the Town of Gardiner up to litigation for damages in those amounts.

Hasn't the legal issue of diminution of real estate value by restrictive zoning been definitively settled by now?
Posted by: yorick

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 02:16 AM

Their plan in the past has been to open a second entrance to Minnewaska State Park replete with extensive parking lots and bus depot. The Mohonk Preserve boasts of a half million visitors a year. It seems reasonable to expect a half million or more visitors a year will enter or visit an expanded Minnewaska State Park through Awosting.





Kent,

Please provide documentation to support your claim that PIPC plans to use Awosting as another entrance to Minnewaska, replete with parking lots and bus depot.

The consensus number for all visitors to the Northern Shawangunks annually - including visitors to the Mountain House, the Preserve, Minnewaska, and Sam's Point - is a half-million per year.
Posted by: pedestrian

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 02:24 AM

Quote:

It seems reasonable to expect a half million or more visitors a year will enter or visit an expanded Minnewaska State Park through Awosting. This bodes well for neither the people of Gardiner or the ecology of the ridge.




Hi Kent! I take this to indicate you support the non-development side of the issue, with respect to Bradley's property...
Posted by: GeeVee

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 02:46 AM

Their plan in the past has been to open a second entrance to Minnewaska State Park replete with extensive parking lots and bus depot.

This bus depot intrigues me - please elaborate if you will.

Thanks.
Posted by: Kent

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 05:07 AM

Yorick, GeeVee, that was the plan in the past as communicated to me verbally by people who live in the neighborhood that were previously made aware of these plans. Give me a couple of days and I'll see what I can dig up for original source documentation.

Pedestrian, yes I'd prefer to see the Awosting Reserve purchased at a fair market value that is unencumbered by the threat of a draconian zoning law, and left undisturbed. This would require a commitment by the land preservation community, and all of us within that community, well beyond what has been made to date.
Posted by: oenophore

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 10:17 AM

Pedestrian, yes I'd prefer to see the Awosting Reserve purchased at a fair market value that is unencumbered by the threat of a draconian zoning law, and left undisturbed. This would require a commitment by the land preservation community, and all of us within that community, well beyond what has been made to date.

What is this commitment, more $?
Posted by: Kent

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 04:35 PM

A fair shake for John Bradley and for everyone else who owns land on the ridge.
Posted by: irisharehere

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 05:16 PM

GeeVee, Elvis, and any other legally-inclined types out there, can you clarify for me what the current legal thinking is regarding planning decisions which impact on the potential value/sale price of land?

Are planning bodies liable for loss of value? If they are, shouldn't the flip side be that if planning decisions raise the value of your piece of property, you should pay the planning authority?
Posted by: alicex4

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 05:49 PM

"Are planning bodies liable for loss of value? If they are, shouldn't the flip side be that if planning decisions raise the value of your piece of property, you should pay the planning authority? "



I don't think they are liable for increase/decrease in property values. There's a development outside DC in Maryland (Clarksburg?) that is all in a dither because the developer totally changed the plans presented and approved by the planning board. Houses are built too tall for code, streets are too narrow, homes are too close and it is all being presented to the planning board. Seems that's the only leverage the community has to hold the developer responsible for his deliberate errors. Otherwise I guess it's the homeowners that are out of pocket. The county inspector general and the state special prosecutor are conducting separate investigations, so the planning board is really obsolete. Just another patronage payola position that doesn't really do anything.
Posted by: Julie

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 06:11 PM

Kent, I am confused about a few things here. Perhaps you'd like to clarify.

A combined offer, by OSI and the Trust for Public Lands (TPL), of $17 million has been made. If that offer is successful the state will likely end up with the land. Although on it's surface this sounds great, if it becomes state land it will no longer be within the jurisdiction of Gardiner or Gardiner's zoning laws.

So - you do want land and property to be under Gardiner's jurisdiction and zoning laws ... or not? Seems you most often argue against jurisdiction and zoning ... but here you say the state's offer is bad because it exempts the Ridge from Gardiner's laws.

Also, the diiference between the asking price of $35 million and the offered price of $17 million

Now, a few of us here have some experience with real estate. One of the governing ideas, is that a property's true value is not its asking price as slapped on it by the owner; but comparable values determined by recent sales of similar, nearby properties.

On what, then, is Bradley's asking price based? I don't expect a large number of relevent comps ... so when you say "commitment" or talk about depressed values, why is that necessarily $35M?

And ah, the irony that all this property is so very valuable because it is undeveloped, by the land-grabbers you despise.
Posted by: Kent

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 06:16 PM

Are planning bodies liable for loss of value?

The proposed zoning law would be a regulatory taking of development rights on 2600 acres of land. If everything is done properly in this regulatory taking, then landowners have no recourse in court. Unfortunately for the town and the taxpayers, there is a risk that everything was not done properly. The details of this I can't discuss for a number of reasons. First, it's complicated and although I understand it when briefed by the legal folks, I wouldn't want to articulate it. Second, even if I could articulate it, this is not the appropriate venue for a detailed legal case to be made.

Beyond litigation costs to the town, which are ongoing, their are signifcant social costs too. Gardiner is in the midst of a sort of civil war over the way both the master plan and the zoning law were developed.

Landowners and taxpayers do have other avenues to pursue though in the effort to keep our rights. First, we can elect people to our town board who don't have sticky finger syndrome. There is an important local election twelve days from now, on Tuesday Nov. 8th. We'll all have to wait and see how that goes.

Second, in the event the people of Gardiner see fit to elect a board that continues in the vein of confiscating property rights with regulatory takings, those of us on the ridge can incorporate a village of our own within the town of Gardiner. We would still pay taxes to and receive services from Gardiner, but we would be able to write our own zoning laws. Names for said village have been kicked around already: Village of Mohonk, Trapps Village, FreeGardiner.
Posted by: Kent

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/27/05 06:32 PM

So - you do want land and property to be under Gardiner's jurisdiction and zoning laws ... or not? Seems you most often argue against jurisdiction and zoning ...

I would prefer the land be under a reasonable local zoning law, emphasis on reasonable. Long ago, when reading of Bradley's objection to state ownership of the land, I thought the objection was odd. With an awareness that the state has had plans in the past for an entranceway to an expanded Minnewaska State Park through what is now the Awosting Reserve, Bradley's objection makes much more sense.

On what, then, is Bradley's asking price based? I don't expect a large number of relevent comps ... so when you say "commitment" or talk about depressed values, why is that necessarily $35M?

I believe the price is based on outside appraisers, but of course an asking price is just that, an asking price. The problem here is the proposed zoning law has greatly depressed the bidding price and presumably scared off many possible bidders. If this is by design rather than coincidence, the town has a big legal problem on it's hands, or so the legal eagles say.

And ah, the irony that all this property is so very valuable because it is undeveloped, by the land-grabbers you despise.

I've always been for the preservation of the land Julie, but in a fair and equitable way.
Posted by: RangerRob

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/29/05 04:43 PM

Kent, as long as you don't stockpile weapons and construct a compound perimeter barrier for your incorporated village of Freegardiner I am all for it. Just kidding man...someone has to lighten up this conversation. On a serious note though...I wish people would use correct terminlogy with regards to landowners and classifcations of state owned property. OSI has no intention of turning this land over to the state. If that were the case there would be very little recreational development as far as parking lots, roads, bus depots. Instead one would be able to hike, climb, camp, hunt, fish, whatever. OSI's intentions are to turn it over to PIPC, not the state. PIPC is a completely different animal. Rule and regulations would be pretty much what exists on current PIPC lands now....more specifically, you can do nothing unless they give you express permission to do it. I don't want to see that property turned over to the park either, but better that than being grabbed up by yet another developer. I'll say again..if everyone who had a Save the Ridge bumper sticker or sign on their lawn put their money where their mouths were...maybe a reasonable solution could be presented. I saw a lot of signs on the lawns of VERY EXPENSIVE NEWLY CONSTRUCTED HOUSES.

RR
Posted by: Terrie

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/29/05 10:07 PM

Are there any cliffs that are attractive for climbing in the land parcel? If so, can someone describe?

Posted by: dalguard

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 10/30/05 02:11 AM

My understanding is no. It's not really a climbing issue aside from the view, which some people think we're ruining already.
Posted by: Kevin

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 11/04/05 05:01 PM

Here is an update from the Poughkeepsie Journal today (11/04/05), an AP story

Group hopes to buy, save 'Gunks parcel


Friday, November 4, 2005
Group hopes to buy, save 'Gunks parcel

The Associated Press


GARDINER — Environmentalists are negotiating to buy a prominent piece of Hudson Valley ridge land that was at the center of a recent development battle.

The Trust for Public Land hopes to close on a $17 million bid to buy a 2,500 acre parcel on the Shawangunk Ridge. The owners of the so-called Awosting Reserve, who hoped to build a high-end development, put the land up for sale after internal legal squabbles.

There were a number of bids for the land — listed at $35 million — but trust project manager Philip Nicholas said the bid placed by his group and the Open Space Institute was selected as the most feasible. He hoped to agree on a contract with a court-appointed trustee within weeks.

"If we don't secure this property, then it will be developed," Nicholas said.

The Shawangunk Ridge runs about 50 miles from near the Hudson River in Ulster County into New Jersey. Its sheer cliffs make it a favorite spot for rock climbers, who clamber up in droves on fair-weather weekends.

Large stretches of the ridge — known as the 'Gunks — are preserved, such as the areas in Minnewaska State Park and the Mohonk Preserve in Ulster.

The Awosting Reserve land is between those two protected parcels.

A furor arose a few years ago after Awosting Reserve LLC general partner John Atwater Bradley sought permission to clear space for 349 homes and a golf course. Local residents fearful of construction on the prominent natural landmark quickly organized opposition and "Save the Ridge" signs cropped up on countless lawns.

Bradley eventually ended up not only with local opposition, but disagreements with the company chosen to develop the site, Chaffin/Light Associates. Bradley fired the firm last year. Chaffin/Light sued Bradley and won. A judge in Delaware ordered the sale.

Nicholas said there are up to six other offers, but theirs was selected as the best, in part because there were no contingencies and the deal could be closed quickly.

They are negotiating with the trustee.

If the bid is accepted, the preservation groups plan to sell the land to the state.

New York could use money from its Environmental Protection Fund to expand the borders of Minnewaska, state parks spokeswoman Wendy Gibson said.
Posted by: oenophore

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 11/04/05 05:50 PM

From Kent's first post above:

A combined offer, by OSI and the Trust for Public Lands (TPL), of $17 million has been made. If that offer is successful the state will likely end up with the land.

From RangerRob's last post above:

OSI's intentions are to turn it over to PIPC, not the state.

From Kevin's post immediately above:

If the bid is accepted, the preservation groups plan to sell the land to the state.

So if the deal happens, who's gonna get the land?
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 11/07/05 03:31 PM

Quote:

From Kent's first post above:

A combined offer, by OSI and the Trust for Public Lands (TPL), of $17 million has been made. If that offer is successful the state will likely end up with the land.

From RangerRob's last post above:

OSI's intentions are to turn it over to PIPC, not the state.

From Kevin's post immediately above:

If the bid is accepted, the preservation groups plan to sell the land to the state.

So if the deal happens, who's gonna get the land?




From a narrow, climber-oriented point of view, it doesn't matter who they sell it to - neither NYS nor PIPC is climber-friendly.

Of course we're being fed conflicting info on whether there's cliffline on the parcel as well.
Posted by: tradjunkie

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 11/07/05 03:58 PM

From a narrow, climber-oriented point of view, it doesn't matter who they sell it to - neither NYS nor PIPC is climber-friendly.

Of course we're being fed conflicting info on whether there's cliffline on the parcel as well.




All the maps I've seen show cliffline on the parcel. I just biked along Castle Point the other day - and there is DEFINITELY a fair amount of nice white cliff on where the maps show the parcel that I could see, and I could only see a small part of the 'alleged' cliffline.

Posted by: RangerRob

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 11/09/05 01:32 PM

I can only think of a few minor exceptions where climbing is not allowed on state land Mike.

RR
Posted by: Mike Rawdon

Re: Awosting Reserve for sale - 11/10/05 10:55 AM

Quote:

I can only think of a few minor exceptions where climbing is not allowed on state land Mike.

RR




State Forest Preserve perhaps. But this land is destined to end up in PIPC/Minne type control. And I'm sure you remember Bernadette Castro (NYS Parks Commissioner) crowing how Peters Kill represented the first time that climbing was allowed in NYS parks.

Yes, I'm being semantic - we all climb all over the state, on state land. That is how it should be. But I don't see that in the Awosting future, unfortunately.